-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Kotaku: An easy mode has never ruined a game
- Thread starter BAD
- Start date
Okaaay, then let's continue that discussion with jkm23. In the here and now, would you say that there is an issue with the majority of games on the market in terms of providing players with easy modes or being easy enough for everyone to play?
Criticism is fair game for critique, answering criticism with get good or buy something else isn't criticism of critique it's an attempt to deflect or silence it.
I'm not sure what the point of bringing this up again is if you're just going to call the person entitled at the end?
Last edited:
sounds like difficulty in video games is the least of your problems...
Maybe just adjust the game a bit instead of a new mode. Not like it means the game will be ruined. Reminder in one patch (1.05) Dark Souls 1 got:
Normal scaling buffed by 5-20% (20% at +14).
Crystal scaling buffed by 5-20% (20% at +4).
Lightning +4 nerfed by 2% (+5 remains unchanged)
Raw scaling buffed by 10% (all levels)
Magic stat scaling buffed by 10-20% (20% at +9)
Enchanted stat scaling buffed by 15-20% (20% at +4)
Divine stat scaling buffed by 10-20% (20% at +9)
Occult stat scaling buffed by 15-20% (20% at +4)
Fire +9 nerfed by 2%. (+10 remains unchanged)
Dragon stat scaling buffed by 5-20% (20% at +5)
Lock-on acquisition range increased
Ring of Fog users can now be locked on.
Overall increase in souls gained (~2-2.5 times more)
Damage reduced on some mobs(?)
HP lowered on some mobs(?)
Reduced acquisition range on normal enemies.
Reduced poise on some enemies.
Distance at which enemies are aggro has been reduced
Bosses drop Humanity and Homeward Bones
Ghosts, Skeletons, Mosquitos, and Slimes give souls now
Twinkling Titanite drop rate improved
Pyromancers in Catacombs drop Skull Lanterns
Darkwraiths in New Londo drop Dark Hand
Minus the nerf (and some other changes related to exploits and such) all make the game generally easier.
Normal scaling buffed by 5-20% (20% at +14).
Crystal scaling buffed by 5-20% (20% at +4).
Lightning +4 nerfed by 2% (+5 remains unchanged)
Raw scaling buffed by 10% (all levels)
Magic stat scaling buffed by 10-20% (20% at +9)
Enchanted stat scaling buffed by 15-20% (20% at +4)
Divine stat scaling buffed by 10-20% (20% at +9)
Occult stat scaling buffed by 15-20% (20% at +4)
Fire +9 nerfed by 2%. (+10 remains unchanged)
Dragon stat scaling buffed by 5-20% (20% at +5)
Lock-on acquisition range increased
Ring of Fog users can now be locked on.
Overall increase in souls gained (~2-2.5 times more)
Damage reduced on some mobs(?)
HP lowered on some mobs(?)
Reduced acquisition range on normal enemies.
Reduced poise on some enemies.
Distance at which enemies are aggro has been reduced
Bosses drop Humanity and Homeward Bones
Ghosts, Skeletons, Mosquitos, and Slimes give souls now
Twinkling Titanite drop rate improved
Pyromancers in Catacombs drop Skull Lanterns
Darkwraiths in New Londo drop Dark Hand
Minus the nerf (and some other changes related to exploits and such) all make the game generally easier.
He self-requested a ban a few minutes ago, just so you know. He won't be able to answer.
You can absolutely get much higher level hunters to help with those, I mean you can absolutely do them with skill and with a good team working together, but you can for sure try to team with higher level hunters who can wreck it without you doing much
Right? I wonder if it'll happen again with Nioh 2.
Lords of the Fallen, The Surge, Salt and Sanctuary, and Nioh are the Souls-like that I played, and they don't. LotF and The Surge are single-player only, too. S&S has coop, but local.
Almost like there's an inherent design philosophy going on here...
🤔🤔🤔
This is something I've never seen brought up. The only time this discussion happens is when a From game releases. I played Monster Hunter: World solo until those fights. Not once did a read about "give us an easy mode". I did like everyone else and kept trying until I finished it. It never happened when Lords of the Fallen or The Surge came out. Not even Salt and Sanctuary.
http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com
Offer a wide choice of difficulty levels
Allow difficulty level to be altered during gameplay, either through settings or adaptive difficulty
detailed options for individual elements of game difficulty.
These are listed in the general category, because adjustable difficulty is an accessibility feature that possibly benefits everyone. It's not tied to just any one specific impairment.
You can, but it never allows you to do it via some easy mode. You have to understand the Behemoth mechanics or you will be wiped regardless of how hard the others are carrying. You have to know Nergigante's moveset so you know when to superman dive and/or run far away. I just don't know why we don't see "MHW needs an easy mode" threads nearly as often, despite Souls games and MH games sharing a lot of design philosophy. I would say it's just because people like the Souls art direction and want to play the game without actually playing the game part of it, but I know that sounds uncharitable.
I agree with the idea of implementing more accessibility features, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here and misunderstanding the stance of the people who are arguing against it.
Their actual argument in regards to this is more something like this:
"I don't think your criticism is particularly helpful or appropriate, because it does not really gel with what the game is, or what it's trying to achieve. If you were discussing ways in which the difficulty was poorly designed that would be one thing, but instead you are complaining that it is too difficult period when that is part of the experience that the developers are trying to convey. Your suggestion would undermine it, and is borne more from personal taste than actual flaws with the craft of the game. That is why I'm saying this game is not for you, because you want it to be something fundamentally different that runs counter to what it's supposed to be."
So the best thing to focus on is why you don't think it would compromise what the game is trying to achieve, or why you think there is a problem with the vision the developer has for the game, because those are the actual roots of the disagreement. Trying to focus on this argument isn't really going to help the discussion.
Personally my stance is that I don't necessarily think accessibility options compromise the experience of the game is because they are not really depriving people from having a challenging experience, and they are not fundamentally changing what the game IS. They are just trying to provide a challenging experience for someone of a different skillset.
User Banned (3 Days): Hostility, Personal Attacks, and a History of Similar Behavior
completely ridiculous example. this isn't about removing the difficulty for everyone it's about adding options. why do you gatekeeping assholes have to be so fucking disingenuous?
Not really, I once early got paired up with three super high level Japanese players who killed the target when I wasn't even in the same area.
I mean it's not ideal and not something you can plan on, but parts is parts
Why do y'all need to call everyone else assholes and be so hostile? Honestly
So wait, you were joking about cheat engine making the game "still fun"? I'm confused lol.
Souls fans: We'd love it if more people played the games and engaged the community if they need help.
Some people: WOW seriously fuck you gatekeeping elitist assholes go fuck yourselves and your fucking exclusive club of elitist shits.
Some people: WOW seriously fuck you gatekeeping elitist assholes go fuck yourselves and your fucking exclusive club of elitist shits.
Why can't you just git gud?
Fucking LOL.
Instead of your wonderful personality and nice pleasantries why don't you participate in the conversation?
I've participated quite a bit, which you would know if you had read the thread.
That person's example said it would be another version of the movie, like an additional cut of the movie. I don't think the hostility is warranted here.
So part of your participation is to distil the conversation down to being a jerk?
Speaking personally, I'm pretty walled at Nergigante for the most part (I did somehow manage to beat it ONCE but have yet to be able to replicate that feat and yeah the stuff that comes after him, forget about it as those guys don't seem to be made to be fought with the Lance at all and pretty much demand a different playstyle than what I've been using, and I'm in no hurry to basically start over from scratch with a different weapon-type). As I've found what's more-or-less the "easy mode" of the game, at least for me, which is using the Lance and mostly turtling behind its shield and just timing my shots with the actual lance when its safe (as in, literally just keeping R2 held down pretty much at all times and pressing Triangle when it's safe). But that really stops working at Nergigante because of its health, and I just time out before I'm able to deal enough damage to actually kill it, and it's the clock that keeps killing me more than anything else. And the next upgrade for my Lance requires parts from Nergigante itself (just one Nergigante Talon short), so that's not an option.
Really, it's tempting for me to just rebuy Monster Hunter World on PC so I can experience some of those other fights and just use a trainer to like give me the parts to make the best gear and stuff, if my laptop could actually run it without exploding and that wouldn't just make my purchase of the PS4 version a waste and how I'd also either need to hunt down a savefile at that point or otherwise redo everything I've already done even if I use some form of cheats/trainer.
But mostly it doesn't matter either way because my laptop sucks and no way do I have the money for a gaming PC that can run World properly, with the performance I'd like. Which is also why I'd love it if those kinda options existed in the console version, so I can just cheat and give myself a maxed-out lance or something, nevermind an actual god mode or anything like that, just trying the fight out with a better weapon but nonetheless winning on my own skill otherwise would be nice, but alas...
But yeah, it's definitely true that at least in Souls games, you're not typically on a clock of sorts, and as long as you kill a boss, even if it somehow takes you over an hour on an individual boss, as long as you nonetheless do it, you're good. Actually being good on health and stuff, and having a monster limping and everything and knowing you must be getting close to killing it, but nonetheless getting stopped by the clock anyway and knowing you must be close to killing it but just barely miss it is the worst feeling in MH. :(
Yeah, for some reason this kind of article only pop up when it involve souls series.
Armored core, Monhun series, super meat boy, hotline miami, spelunky, La-maulana is hard as fuck and barely got mentioned
I've ran out of actual arguments that fall on deaf ears at this point. And I've seen people call From and their fans terrible people just for thinking it's ok if the game doesn't have an easy mode.
So yeah, I'm sorry if at this point I'm generalizing but it's okay when the other side does it, right?
Meh, it's not a worthwhile hill to die on in here. People are just straight up laughing at others now. It is what it is.
A big part of the dedicated Souls / From Software fanbase, the people who defend the developers' decision to not implement easy modes in their games, aren't necessarily exclusively hardcore players - many of them are more casual players who developed a taste for more challenging games due to From's approach to difficulty settings. A lot of these people might not have had the experience they had if the Souls games just had easy modes (putting aside other issues like how discrete easy modes in those games would screw with their online features), and I think something like the tweet about XCOM upthread showing that 80% of players played on its lower difficulty modes goes a long way to support that. By not allowing players to take the path of least resistance, you do prevent many players from removing the difficulty for themselves and inadvertently getting a worse experience out of the game, and I think From is acutely aware of that.
That's very interesting indeed.
Excellent example, agreed.
Absolutely, even the Kotaku article mentions this "exclusive club" mentality.
Exactly!
b/c its en game in a sudo mmo, aka elite challenges, v From whole game being hard.
I'm not though, people have repeatedly stated that if you don't like it buy a different game or get better and that even questioning it means you're trying to put obligations on the creator.
And while that hypothetical argument that you say is their actual argument is better written than many of the arguments against it, it's not what many have said. Had they it may have led to a greater discussion! Regardless even that has been already argued against since an easy mode wouldn't and doesn't undermine a regular mode nor detracts from the default setting of the game and those that wish to interact with the game that way, as has also been constantly said, and many people have stated their reasons as to why it would not compromise the game.
And I agree with you that accessibility options don't compromise the experience of a game for the same reason, that it's not depriving anyone of the experience the challenge that they wish to have on the intended difficulty setting. Which I've also said.
I appreciate your efforts at telling me what I'm saying and what other people are saying to me, however it doesn't help the discussion to misrepresent or repeat things already discussed, and doesn't mitigate the point that some are attempting to deflect or silence criticism/those requesting additional options by telling them to not play the game or hide behind the vapid 'it's the intent of the creator' defense.
All those games except for monster hunter came out a long time ago. From is still making games and despite not doing SUPER gangbusters numbers they still have a lot of visibility, and they've developed a very particular reputation in part because of the unfortunate way some people in the fanbase act. So I would assume it's for those reasons that this argument ends up circling back to From eventually.
What I tried to describe is the underlying sentiment behind the people making those posts because I'm pretty sure that's what at the root of this discussion, but I realize now that this is not the same thing as what those people actually said and people shouldn't necessarily have to read into it to understand it, and also I really shouldn't pretend to be a mind reader. So I'm sorry if that came across as condescending or anything. I probably should have worded my post differently to begin with.
Last edited:
I am sorry. This was a complete missunderstanding and this thread has been insanity. Please forgive me quoting you and I really should have read your previous stuff first as I get where you are coming from.
How is the post by Morrigan laughing at others? How is the response by anyprophet justified when Morrigan gave a pretty great example of something similar happening in another medium and theyre called an elitist asshole to which you then follow up with that theyre laughing at others? What a weird bunch of posts
I too am also amazed people use more recent examples, and in some cases more well know as well, and not games dating from 2010, 2012, and so on.
I will make a note to go into the next Monster Hunter game thread and ask for options though. Just so other fandoms can deal with the unwashed hordes asking for options in video games. Soulsborne fans shouldn't have to suffer that indignity alone.
Side note. I would love a new Armored Core, just hope it is on the PC.
But what if you could literally never "triumph over adversity"? Like it's physically impossible for you to. I just think everyone's threshold for what they deem an "adversity" is widely different, and I think if the game was dynamic enough to dial in your thresehold everyone could get maximum enjoyment out of it. Optional of course, there would still be the "developer recommended adversity level".
But many people are complaining about not being able to finish a souls game they paid for. Monster Hunter games are likewise unfinishable unless you beat some very hard fights. The focus on slow, deliberate combat and learning enemy patterns is the same, the only differences are the art direction and mission structure.
Difficulty is subjective, so having a range of options are beneficial to all types. What is hard for one person is easy for another, not everyone has the same skill sets, some need additional help to learn and get better. There is no one size fits all, and never will be, so it would be great for the industry to learn what easy modes do, implement them or take parts of what easy modes can do and make them options (see: Celeste as one great example of an incredibly hard precision platformer with good options). None of these things take away the core experience a game offers.
Just trying to save people who might take the "why don't you git gud" "fucking LOOOL" "fucking LOL" bait and get banned. It's not worth it at the end of the day.
