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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
I love movies but if they stopped showing them in theaters and started making me go see them in some markedly inferior form, I would probably stop going to those, too. Streaming is a garbage tech that exists purely to move more control into the hands of the publishers and take it away from consumers. If there's no local install, I'm not getting involved.

I'm sorry, but your post is born out of ignorance. I love games and I'm excited about cloud gaming because all of the possibilities that it offers. We will eventually see examples of games that are impossible on local hardware, you might even think they are awesome, but since you value the distribution method more than the games, you won't play them. It is clear that you haven't spent any time investigating about cloud gaming and how image quality and latency have been improving and will continue to improve over time.
 
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cnorwood

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,343
So you admit people will have to stream with technology that isn't currently good enough? This is always going to happen, you will never stop dropouts etc. Can you imagine just getting to the end of a really hard session and the game stutters along, making you die and start that bit again. Yeh, that sounds like fun.
I will admit that the 5g in the future will be better than it is today, this is true with all tech. The tech is ready for today at least googles is. Project stream worked amazing for me, yes it could be better but my ps4 could be better too. I got very consistent frame rates, very little artifacting and no noticeable lag
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
In simpler words, Input Lag. when you have a game running in a server, your command has to travel back at the server so it registers it. Some games would be absolutely fine, others, is a big no no. In order for a game to feel good, you want it to respond as fast as possible. Suppose you are playing Dark Souls, and you die because you pressed dodge and it took too long to respond. Fighting Games, Competitive games in general, Big problem in my book.

Now, I'm sure they can mitigate it, but never be the same as playing locally because, like another poster claimed above, they're still bound to the laws of physics.

I have shared a lot here about how by just increasing the framerate you can compensate for network latency, to a point where you could even surpass the local version. What you must understand is that local games also have latency. You can see the quote below from Digital Foundry talking about how the Assassin's Creed Odyssey Xbox One X version would have a higher latency if the Stadia version would be streaming at 60fps instead of 30fps. Besides this, you will start to see techniques like reprojection and late-latching to reduce the latency even more. Do you understand that this means that we will see games running on Stadia that will have a lower input lag compared to local console games?

"Based on the results we're seeing here running the PC version at 60fps, latency should drop by 33ms. The Xbox One X version is already bafflingly high in latency terms, to the point where Stadia can match it. Based on the PC results, running at full frame-rate would actually see the streaming version surpass the Xbox game."



 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
No, but common understanding of words and meaning define them. I don't redefine words to fit a narrative.

Who is redefining anything here? I'm telling you what I mean when I say true gamer. What else do you need?


- Inconsistent access to high performance networks across the country means I can't be assured that I will have access to my games, or play them as well as I could on a dedicated device.

- Exotic platforms means that I can't avail myself of extra compute resources in a data center if servers are running at capacity. Basically, if too many people are playing on nodes in a particular geo that I need to access then I can't play.

- Can't play them on a train, public wifi, on a plane, etc.

- Uncontrolled picture quality fluctuation.

- Uncontrolled or unexpected input latency.

-You wont always have your console with you and even if you can, let's see how easy you can play your games while being in a car travelling. This will eventually be possible with 5G and even 4G depending on the game and the tolerance you have for input latency. Even with Inconsistent access to high performance networks across the country, someone with cloud gaming access is still in a better position than someone with only their console at the house, on regards to access to their game library.

-Is that what you think will happen with Stadia or other cloud gaming services? They will become so popular that they wont be able to handle the demand, is that what you want to say?

-So you are presenting something that you know is also a disadvantage for home consoles as a disadvantage that you think applies to cloud gaming as well? Have you heard about Starlink?

-Anything that has to do with image quality and latency will improve over time. Even more important, no one is making you access cloud gaming services if the quality and input latency are not there for you.

The issue with more people NOT playing RDR2 is not one of access. There is a certain portion of the population that won't play a 120 hour western that requires a 32 button controller. The argument that people won't have to buy a console as a barrier to entry is false. I live in a country (USA) where people are buying $700-1000 cell phones and $250 4K TVs. The cost of the console is not the barrier. The game type is. But, hey, don't take my word for it.

What you are saying now is even worse than saying that streaming will likely not expand the number of gamers. You are now saying that everyone that wants a console has the money to buy one? Honestly if you answer yes to that one we can finish the conversation right there.

"There may be some disappointment that the market increase won't be as large as some people think," Take-Two Interactive CEO Strauss Zelnick told me in an interview earlier this month.

"I don't think it's as simple as there are a couple billion phones out there, and only a couple hundred million consoles out there, so the market will grow by 10 or 20x. I think that's facile," he said.


https://www.businessinsider.com/video-game-streaming-service-challenges-strauss-zelnick-2019-6

Yes, this is not equal to "streaming will likely not expand the number of gamers", what you are sharing here is that according to the Take-Two Interactive CEO, cloud gaming wont expand the number of gamer by the amount "people think". So yes, you can go ahead and change your argument from "likely to not expand the gaming market" to "likely to not expand the gaming market to what people think".
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
Because a cloud gaming service isn't what is best for me. Not everyone has the luxury to say if it gets good scores I'll play it no matter what. Things a bit more complicated than that for a lot of people.

If you can get access to the service or not is irrelevant to my example. This is a case where someone would say "I won't play the game on a cloud gaming service on any situation. It doesn't matter if I have perfect internet or not, it doesn't matter if I have all the money in the world or not, it doesn't matter if it might be my favorite game ever, it doesn't matter if it has incredible physics or AI, it doesn't matter if the image quality improves to a point where it looks equal or better than local gaming, it doesn't matter if the input lag is equal or better that local games, it doesn't matter if I finally see what is possible with the power of the cloud and the incredible games that are possible. I won't play the game because it is running on a cloud gaming server." full stop.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
95
USA
Who is redefining anything here? I'm telling you what I mean when I say true gamer. What else do you need?

-You wont always have your console with you and even if you can, let's see how easy you can play your games while being in a car travelling. This will eventually be possible with 5G and even 4G depending on the game and the tolerance you have for input latency. Even with Inconsistent access to high performance networks across the country, someone with cloud gaming access is still in a better position than someone with only their console at the house, on regards to access to their game library.

My Switch, iPad, and Android phone say otherwise. I may not have every game I want, but I can play what is on them, wherever I am. No need to worry about massive bandwidth at sub 40ms latency.

-Is that what you think will happen with Stadia or other cloud gaming services? They will become so popular that they wont be able to handle the demand, is that what you want to say?

That is not what I am saying. I am talking about users per node vs physical capacity. They will be able to serve far fewer users per node than traditional data center compute nodes. xCloud, and Playstation Now are in the same boat.

-So you are presenting something that you know is also a disadvantage for home consoles as a disadvantage that you think applies to cloud gaming as well?

Again, I can play my games on my iPad, Android phone, and Switch on a plane, in a car, on a train, etc. , no problem. I can play multiplayer games on public wifi and hotel on my laptop. My home consoles? Well no. They are attached to my 75" TV where they are best experienced.

Have you heard about Starlink?

Have you heard about concrete? How well does your Sirius radio when you go into a parking structure? Or on a subway?

-Anything that has to do with image quality and latency will improve over time. Even more important, no one is making you access cloud gaming services if the quality and input latency are not there for you.

We agree on something!

What you are saying now is even worse than saying that streaming will likely not expand the number of gamers. You are now saying that everyone that wants a console has the money to buy one? Honestly if you answer yes to that one we can finish the conversation right there.

I didn't say everyone. Are you are saying that everyone has the ability to pay for high speed network services at home and on mobile to make this cloud gaming future viable?

Yes, this is not equal to "streaming will likely not expand the number of gamers", what you are sharing here is that according to the Take-Two Interactive CEO, cloud gaming wont expand the number of gamer by the amount "people think". So yes, you can go ahead and change your argument from "likely to not expand the gaming market" to "likely to not expand the gaming market to what people think".

My apologies. What I meant to say was that access to these games through cloud gaming will not, all of the sudden, mean that people who wouldn't play these games all of the sudden would. The growth of the hardcore gamer market is minimal.
 

Dremorak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,687
New Zealand
I would bet my house that the next gen of physical consoles won't be the last.
You're right in that its probably not the last, but partway through next gen the console will be an optional purchase.
The gen AFTER that is where it could go either way.
Altho Nintnedo hasa proved they can maintain a console by themselves +indies, so I wont be surprised if they either take way longer to abandon physical hardware, or never do.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
You're right in that its probably not the last, but partway through next gen the console will be an optional purchase.
The gen AFTER that is where it could go either way.
Altho Nintnedo hasa proved they can maintain a console by themselves +indies, so I wont be surprised if they either take way longer to abandon physical hardware, or never do.
They are already an optional purchase starting in just 2 weeks
 

ArcLyte

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,037
The most interesting thing about Stadia in particular is the immense compute and graphical capacity that can be dedicated to a game, to create worlds and systems that simply can't be built for consoles and PCs. I can see KojiPro taking full advantage of that and making something truly groundbreaking.
 

Dremorak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,687
New Zealand
They are already an optional purchase starting in just 2 weeks
Well, I guess Xbone is an optional purchase if you have a PC :P
I meant you would sign up to a Sony or MS service to play all of their games on anything.

If you're talking about stadia, the fact that you need either a super powerful new phone, a new chromecast or a PC that can probably already play the games AND the fact you still have to buy the damn games means its not our streaming future.
When a service comes along with a subscription model (the "netflix of games") where you get a library of games to choose from, and that works on phones that dont cost an arm and a leg, then it will be ready for mass market.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
Well, I guess Xbone is an optional purchase if you have a PC :P
I meant you would sign up to a Sony or MS service to play all of their games on anything.

If you're talking about stadia, the fact that you need either a super powerful new phone, a new chromecast or a PC that can probably already play the games AND the fact you still have to buy the damn games means its not our streaming future.
When a service comes along with a subscription model (the "netflix of games") where you get a library of games to choose from, and that works on phones that dont cost an arm and a leg, then it will be ready for mass market.
Ok Xbox 2 and ps5 are optional purchases for people that don't care about Sony or Microsoft exclusives once stadia comes out in 2 weeks
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
I mean... PS4 and Xbone are optional purchases for people that don't care about Sony or Microsoft exclusives.
I only bought a PS4 to play the exclusives, otherwise I'd just have a switch and a PC
Stadia makes all hardware optional next gen including PCs is what I was trying to say, except for people that want specific exclusives, I hope Sony and Microsoft offer full cloud too with new full priced games

would be nice if I could just buy ps5 games on my PS4
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Seattle
Stadia makes all hardware optional next gen including PCs is what I was trying to say, except for people that want specific exclusives, I hope Sony and Microsoft offer full cloud too with new full priced games
If you are going to discuss Stadia like that you can't say the hardware is optional; there is no hardware option for Stadia lol
 

Dremorak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,687
New Zealand
Stadia makes all hardware optional next gen including PCs is what I was trying to say
Yeah I get that, except hardware isn't optional if you need a high end google phone or chromecast. And if the argument is that some people already own those devices, I would say even more already own PCs.

Its like the market they are aiming for is:
- people who want to play 3rd party AAA games
- who dont own a console or a pc
- who already own a chromecast or an expensive phone?
- who are ALSO willing to buy full price games to stream onto their phone/chromecast

I just can't see this particular form of streaming going anywhere until it works on every phone AND/OR is a subscription service through and through.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
lol no one disagrees with the statement.
People just disagree on timing.

Sometime in the next 10 years (could be 2, could be 10) there will be a viable streaming option.
IMO Stadia isnt viable
What's not viable, your not one of the ones saying it's supposed to be like Netflix are you, that would be nice it would save me even more money but that's not happening
 

Cromat

Member
Mar 17, 2019
677
lol no one disagrees with the statement.
People just disagree on timing.

Sometime in the next 10 years (could be 2, could be 10) there will be a viable streaming option.
IMO Stadia isnt viable

Stadia won't take the world by storm tomorrow but it's Google trying to get ahead of Amazon and Microsoft entering this space. I think within 2-3 years it will take a big chunk of the market. The economics make a lot more sense.
 

Fadewise

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,210
Yep next gen streaming will be much cheaper than buying an Xbox 2, ps5, and upgrading your pc. Much much cheaper
This is my plan, will be trying to avoid buying any hardware next gen except for Nintendo stuff

People keep saying this like it's a truism, but the math just doesn't check out. Even assuming a worst case scenario where the Xbox Scarlet launches at $500 (very unlikely) and MS continues to charge $60/year for Live, amortized over a 7 year console generation that comes out to $11/month ($10 in the much more likely scenario where the Scarlett launches for $400) versus Stadia's $10/month. Granted, there's a discussion to be had about the viability of fixed local hardware over those 7 years versus a continuously upgraded cloud service versus a high end up-to-date PC, but that's a completely different argument to be had. On its face, there's just no path by which streaming is "much much cheaper". At best, it's a solution for people who can't afford a large upfront expenditure.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
People keep saying this like it's a truism, but the math just doesn't check out. Even assuming a worst case scenario where the Xbox Scarlet launches at $500 (very unlikely) and MS continues to charge $60/year for Live, amortized over a 7 year console generation that comes out to $11/month ($10 in the much more likely scenario where the Scarlett launches for $400) versus Stadia's $10/month. Granted, there's a discussion to be had about the viability of fixed local hardware over those 7 years versus a continuously upgraded cloud service versus a high end up-to-date PC, but that's a completely different argument to be had. On its face, there's just no path by which streaming is "much much cheaper". At best, it's a solution for people who can't afford a large upfront expenditure.
You aren't figuring it the way I am though, I bought 7 PS exclusives this whole gen so that means I would only need 7 months of PS now + 60$ for each game not 84 months of PS now, why would I need 84 months of PSnow for just 7 games?

same math for Xbox too but I bought even less games for it
 

Fadewise

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,210
You aren't figuring it the way I am though, I bought 7 PS exclusives this whole gen so that means I would only need 7 months of PS now + 60$ for each game not 84 months of PS now

same math for Xbox too but I bought even less games for it

I mean, ok, then that looks even worse for your case, since your amortized monthly cost would be even less without the the console service fee. In fact, if you don't have interest in playing online multiplayer you can cut that out entirely. Stadia still requires you to purchase the games, so that cost is a wash in either scenario.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
I mean, ok, then that looks even worse for your case, since your amortized monthly cost would be even less without the the console service fee. In fact, if you don't have interest in playing online multiplayer you can cut that out entirely. Stadia still requires you to purchase the games, so that cost is a wash in either scenario.
7 months of PSnow would be 70$
A whole ps5 would be 500$

this is if Sony upgrades PSnow to be like stadia where you can buy new games
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
so you're only playing video games 7 months out an entire generation? Ok, yeah, in that case you're better off streaming, but that's kind of an edge case to the discussion.
Yea that's how many PS4 exclusives I've bought this gen, 7 and I finished all of them in less than a month

even if took me 2 months to finish each one (this has never happened) it would still be cheaper to buy the streaming version
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Streaming games with no net neutrality. I can hear the dollar signs for fast lanes.


Also streaming is terrible.
 

Deleted member 13560

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,087
Streaming games will be... mainstream withing the next 10 to 15 years. Whenever streaming is indiscernible between local enthusiast grade hardware and the cloud, I'll jump on board.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
My Switch, iPad, and Android phone say otherwise. I may not have every game I want, but I can play what is on them, wherever I am. No need to worry about massive bandwidth at sub 40ms latency.

Yes, and that is the point, some people do want to continue playing their console games while on the road. Some will only have their smartphone and will only play cloud games from there. I'm not talking about your iPad game library here.

That is not what I am saying. I am talking about users per node vs physical capacity. They will be able to serve far fewer users per node than traditional data center compute nodes. xCloud, and Playstation Now are in the same boat.

Oh, OK, users per node then. Google's problem will be that the demand will be so high that the nodes won't be able to keep up. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Again, I can play my games on my iPad, Android phone, and Switch on a plane, in a car, on a train, etc. , no problem. I can play multiplayer games on public wifi and hotel on my laptop. My home consoles? Well no. They are attached to my 75" TV where they are best experienced.

Thank you for understanding. Stadia won't depend on people like you that out of the gate are already determined to only play their console games on their big screen TV. There is nothing else we need to talk about, you don't what to use it, I'm not here to order you to use it.


Have you heard about concrete? How well does your Sirius radio when you go into a parking structure? Or on a subway?

The Starlink question was for airplanes.


We agree on something!

Yay! Now you know no one is forcing you to use stadia.


I didn't say everyone. Are you are saying that everyone has the ability to pay for high speed network services at home and on mobile to make this cloud gaming future viable?

Help me make sense of this. "The argument that people won't have to buy a console as a barrier to entry is false.". "The cost of the console is not the barrier.". So do you now agree that the price of a console is a barrier to some? Oh, and where the fuck does the question about everybody being able to pay high speed internet comes from? Am I making that point? Of course not everybody has a good enough connection to use a cloud gaming service, the important number here is the number of people that DO have it.


My apologies. What I meant to say was that access to these games through cloud gaming will not, all of the sudden, mean that people who wouldn't play these games all of the sudden would. The growth of the hardcore gamer market is minimal.

No one is saying that. An unknown % will access the service once it becomes available, we need to wait to see what %. Just like with regular consoles, some of them will play a lot some won't. This should be obvious.
 
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llLeonhart

Member
Oct 21, 2019
186
I have shared a lot here about how by just increasing the framerate you can compensate for network latency, to a point where you could even surpass the local version. What you must understand is that local games also have latency. You can see the quote below from Digital Foundry talking about how the Assassin's Creed Odyssey Xbox One X version would have a higher latency if the Stadia version would be streaming at 60fps instead of 30fps. Besides this, you will start to see techniques like reprojection and late-latching to reduce the latency even more. Do you understand that this means that we will see games running on Stadia that will have a lower input lag compared to local console games?

"Based on the results we're seeing here running the PC version at 60fps, latency should drop by 33ms. The Xbox One X version is already bafflingly high in latency terms, to the point where Stadia can match it. Based on the PC results, running at full frame-rate would actually see the streaming version surpass the Xbox game."




That is making crazy assumptions, and yeah, exactly, local gaming has latency, I never claimed otherwise. Increasing FPs improves response time, sure, but a local 60fps >>>>>> 60fps streamed. Trust me, unless you are really numb to this kind of stuff, or you are extremely close to where the stadia servers are, you will feel it.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
95
USA
Yes, and that is the point, some people do want to continue playing their console games while on the road. Some will only have their smartphone and will only play cloud games from there. I'm not talking about your iPad game library here.

Oh, OK, users per node then. Google's problem will be that the demand will be so high that the nodes won't be able to keep up. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

That is not what I am saying at all. What I AM saying is that the number of players that can be supported per node is REALLY small compared to generalized compute services. This means that any cloud provider needs to put in a proportionally larger amount of infrastructure to support the small number of users, relatively speaking, that would use this service. So if you want to define the really small percentage of the market that uses this at launch as high demand, then yes, you will saturate the availability of the service. If you are fine with waiting in a queue to play your game due to saturation, enjoy that cloud gaming future.


Thank you for understanding. Stadia won't depend on people like you that out of the gate are already determined to only play their console games on their big screen TV. There is nothing else we need to talk about, you don't what to use it, I'm not here to order you to use it.

It's not an issue of determination, it's one of experience. Go play the new MW on a 5" screen and tell me how good your sniping abilities are when the draw/view distance is insanely deep. Now add sporadic lag and frame drops to that equation. Want to play Civ 5 this way? Fine. So may other games, from interface, font sizing, to viewability become a massive problem and, in some cases, unplayable.

Help me make sense of this. "The argument that people won't have to buy a console as a barrier to entry is false.". "The cost of the console is not the barrier.". So do you now agree that the price of a console is a barrier to some?

Of course there are many people that can not afford a $2-300 console...

Oh, and where the fuck does the question about everybody being able to pay high speed internet comes from? Am I making that point? Of course not everybody has a good enough connection to use a cloud gaming service, the important number here is the number of people that DO have it.

...and those households are typically the same households that can't afford to pay for high speed/unlimited internet access. One barrier to access does not mean that the other is magically removed.

Here is my question for you. Do you feel that cloud gaming will replace consoles AND dramatically increase the number of people playing console games?

No one is saying that. An unknown % will access the service once it becomes available, we need to wait to see what %. Just like with regular consoles, some of them will play a lot some won't. This should be obvious.

I have to say, you are the single most passionate supporter of cloud gaming I have seen here, in all of the discussions that have popped up around cloud gaming anywhere on Era. I will just say that there are many like me who have worked on cloud gaming/network services, worked in game development, and worked in telecommunications that are cautious or skeptical about the claims of the next crop of game streaming services.

Hey, I would be pleasantly surprised to be wrong! I also believe that there are some experiences that cloud service could deliver that are really unique and cool. I remain skeptical, especially in light of the comments/assertions that the Stadia marketing has made. Microsoft is doing a MUCH better job of describing the potential, roadmap, and expectations of xCloud vs Stadia.
 
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TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
I hope he takes advantage of the cloud by making a game not possible on regular hardware. I feel like that's kind of what he's saying but I hope it's really mindblowing.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
I 1000% believe in game streaming. Now. What form streaming cstches on first in the future is up in the air. That is very much still a scramble. Could be Stadia. Could be Sony. Could be Microsoft. Its really all up in the air.

The stats on broadband penetration is out there the majority of Americans have acess to high speed internet. Of course some people are going to be left behind but that is always the case with all technology.
 

Elephant

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,786
Nottingham, UK
This is a beautiful title, which I'm sure caused a lot of internal conflict for members of this forum.

Maybe people will accept our streaming future now their lord and saviour Kojima has said it. instead of using the same recycled rhetoric from previous generations that also argued against music and film streaming.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
That is making crazy assumptions, and yeah, exactly, local gaming has latency, I never claimed otherwise. Increasing FPs improves response time, sure, but a local 60fps >>>>>> 60fps streamed. Trust me, unless you are really numb to this kind of stuff, or you are extremely close to where the stadia servers are, you will feel it.

No, this is basic math. You said that because of the laws of physics a cloud game would never be the same as playing locally. If you are smart enough to say that 60fps >>>>>> 60fps streamed, then I'm sure that you are smart enough to understand that a cloud gaming running at a higher framerate can surpass a local game running at a lower framerate. So where does your absolute statement about a cloud game NEVER having lower input lag than a local version stands now? You have the option now to either crap all over the information below, or you could take a few minutes of your precious time to read it and try to understand it. If you find any errors please be sure to specifically point them out.

Compare God of War running at 30fps vs unlocked. See the input lag changing from 138.7ms to 59.5ms. Can you see how someone playing God of war with a higher framerate on a cloud gaming server could have an experience with less input lag? We are talking about a 79.2ms difference here. I have seen examples of people reporting sub 10ms ping times to a cloud gaming server.

God-of-War.png


See how this applies for Counter Strike.

Capture.png

www.youtube.com

[Sponsored] Beyond 60FPS: How Running Games at 144FPS/240FPS Can Improve The Gameplay Experience

Turning v-sync off and running games unlocked has always lowered input lag and made for tighter control in gaming - but now we have a range of 144Hz and 240H...

See some other examples on how input lag can vary from game to game. There is a lot of room for developers to lower the input lag on their games.

IMG-20190611-084953-491.jpg


latency.png


I'm only talking about increasing the framerate here, everyone should be able to understand this. I also shared links to other techniques Stadia will be using like reprojection and late latching. Did you take time to check them out?



You can also view how you can do multiple input predictions by using motion vectors. This means that by using information of the frame that has already been rendered, you can simulate how it would look if you press, left, right, up, down, on the joystick. So this is not some brute force solution as you seem to believe.




You can see how other predictive techniques work. This is a real example and not some magic argument.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
That is not what I am saying at all. What I AM saying is that the number of players that can be supported per node is REALLY small compared to generalized compute services. This means that any cloud provider needs to put in a proportionally larger amount of infrastructure to support the small number of users, relatively speaking, that would use this service. So if you want to define the really small percentage of the market that uses this at launch as high demand, then yes, you will saturate the availability of the service. If you are fine with waiting in a queue to play your game due to saturation, enjoy that cloud gaming future.

OK, so "the number of players that can be supported per node is REALLY small". I'm very interested on this, do you care to share the source for this claim? Curious to see what number goes with "REALLY SMALL".

It's not an issue of determination, it's one of experience. Go play the new MW on a 5" screen and tell me how good your sniping abilities are when the draw/view distance is insanely deep. Now add sporadic lag and frame drops to that equation. Want to play Civ 5 this way? Fine. So may other games, from interface, font sizing, to viewability become a massive problem and, in some cases, unplayable.

The problem is that you cannot take yourself as reference and then predict how everyone else will behave. You are the guy with an Ultra Blu Ray player and a 20,000 home theater, predicting how Netflix will never succeed because the image quality and sound don't compare. It should be easy enough for you to look at reviews from Xcloud and see how the majority of people are both surprised on how good it works and looks and say that this is something they could see themselves using. You can pretend like every gamer using a cloud service will play every game on a 5" screen, but that wouldn't be accurate. You and me know that you could also use an 8"/10" tablet as well. It could be a crappy $150 12" notebook.

Of course there are many people that can not afford a $2-300 console...

Correct, this is not what you said here, "The cost of the console is not the barrier." Because it is a barrier for millions of people. You can simply not deny how more people will have access to console games now.


...and those households are typically the same households that can't afford to pay for high speed/unlimited internet access. One barrier to access does not mean that the other is magically removed.

Here is my question for you. Do you feel that cloud gaming will replace consoles AND dramatically increase the number of people playing console games?

Yes, but you should be able to understand that more people are able to pay an internet connection, compared to the amount of people that pay an internet connection and also have a console. One group is undeniably larger than the other. I do believe that cloud gaming will eventually replace local gaming as the main way to play games, but people find it difficult to think and see things as a gradual change. Stadia should be better than any other streaming service on regards to image quality, input latency and scale of the service, but the real test will happen once the service is out there for people to try. There is a big difference between 75/85% of the public saying online that they can't believe how good Stadia plays and looks vs the same percentage saying that they could not log in most of the time and when they did, they had a horrible experience. If most people have a great experience with Stadia you can bet your life that the service will be successful and will continue to grow. Access is one thing, but the service must work for most people that try it in order to become popular.


I have to say, you are the single most passionate supporter of cloud gaming I have seen here, in all of the discussions that have popped up around cloud gaming anywhere on Era. I will just say that there are many like me who have worked on cloud gaming/network services, worked in game development, and worked in telecommunications that are cautious or skeptical about the claims of the next crop of game streaming services.

Hey, I would be pleasantly surprised to be wrong! I also believe that there are some experiences that cloud service could deliver that are really unique and cool. I remain skeptical, especially in light of the comments/assertions that the Stadia marketing has made. Microsoft is doing a MUCH better job of describing the potential, roadmap, and expectations of xCloud vs Stadia.

I am looking forward for the new type of games that will be possible on the cloud, anyone that likes games should be at least curious about it. I also like the idea of developers having a bigger market to sell their games. This leads to developers taking more risks with new ideas and be less prone to go broke. Even if you are not planning on using a cloud gaming service, you should at least understand how that benefits you. Death Stranding is a wonderful example of someone trying to make something different with a big budget, you might not like the game, but everyone should at least respect that Kojima didn't try to make a Call of Duty clone, because that is what sells. I want to see more games like that.

I apologize if I sometimes act a little bit harsh on people, but I do spend a lot of time investigating and reading online about how this works and it is very frustrating when someone (not necessarily your case) responds to all the information that is shared with "NOPE, you are wrong, a cloud game on every case will have a higher latency, worse image quality and everything about making server blades work together is a lie". Some people actively either knowingly or not, spread a lot of incorrect information, because they see this a threat. I will be there sharing as much factual information as I can every time I see it.
 
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Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
The fact that a bunch of games have unacceptable input lag the last couple of generations is a problem that many gamers have been concerned about.

It will be interesting to see the DF videos comparing actual lag and actual video quality between the various cloud platforms and local, in real-world conditions in particular.
 

Mimosa

Community & Social Media Manager
Verified
Oct 23, 2019
795
But the costs are also huge for a new console with R&D and stuff, right? The problem I see right now is if every publisher has to build their own streaming service in the future or if Google takes most of them.
yeah, the costs are massive. From what I understand, rather than every publisher housing their own server, it'd be a few giants taking care of that (i.e. Google, Amazon, etc).

I'd say right now we're still in the earlyish stages of R&D, so it'll be interesting to see where we're at after this next gen ends. I guess it depends on if Stadia seems...clearer to us.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
"We'll have Tokyo Olympic in the year of 2020, and also the extreme change in entertainment industry will come in next 10 years with the arrival of the streaming and AI. I'd like to create something related to such new media and totally brand new entertainment for the tomorrow."

 

ThatOneGuy

Member
Dec 3, 2018
1,207
Isn't 5g super susceptible to being interrupted by simple objects though? Literally a person walking in front of you can disrupt the signal.