Kojima: Death Stranding Had Stronger Criticism in the US, Possibly Because It Flies Above Shooters

[Alexandros]

I'm not sure? I find the delivery stuff really enjoyable and meditative so I'm not sure I can answer your question. I wouldn't change it for something else.

The game is a cooperative logistics simulator with a crazy sci fi story. Honestly I'm mostly baffled by the people who can love Breath of the Wild and not like this. Honestly, there is a lot of common DNA in their design philosophy, but instead of shrines you have delivery points and the puzzle solving is figuring out how to better traverse the world.

Helping the different people and cities nets you many beneficial tools and helping other players put resources into roads makes the world more traversable, making it easier to make more deliveries. All the mechanical loops feed into each other and reinforce one another.

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I'll chime in if that is okay. I love the game and the deliveries help bring communities together. Like delivering medication, fresh water and supplies and shows them they can help each other. Same with the online. Different porters help each other and create a sense of community. I also think the deliveries themselves are interesting. Doesn't sound fun on paper but really fun when playing.

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I'm curious about how close the current gameplay loop is to Kojima's original vision or if the delivery loop was something that developed during iteration.

In my opinion, if you took the philosophical game design challenge "make traversal interesting and give it a strong risk:reward element", Death Stranding is what you'd get.

Deliveries/cargo are ONLY there to add risk to your actual objective (reaching new knots and improving the environment to eventually reach the west coast). If there was no need to carry cargo and make deliveries - which are crucial to long term success in the game (levelling up Knots) then going from A to B would have no risk. If you fell over or got caught by BTs or MULEs, it wouldn't matter. With precious or fragile cargo, you suddenly need to consider EVERY step. And when you don't, disaster befalls you.

to boot, if we didn't have to track back and forth doing deliveries, players would only ever take one route forward, plant a couple of objects, and move on - the sense of risk would deteriorate and the mingleplayer/shared world aspect wouldn't develop at all.

I've never played a game where minute to minute traversal is engaging - until Death Stranding. Example: while completing a delivery last night I realised I was short of ladders and had to go around a mountain. All was fine until I reached a narrow, deep ravine/river. It was in a crevasse so if I went down I would be swept away. I was carrying a huge tower of stuff. I walked up hill to a point where the crevasse was narrower and lower on one side... And took a running jump over the crevasse.

i literally fist pumped the air when my boots hit solid earth on the other side

a videogame in 2019 literally made me overjoyed at making a tiny 5-foot leap.

Without deliveries and cargos, this sense of risk and adventure and MEANINGFUL TRAVERSAL wouldnt be 1/10th as profound. It would still be there but not as deep or rich.

that crazy fucker did it again

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Thank you all for your impressions. What I want to ask you and anyone else who feels like answering is this: Is traversal challenging enough and interesting enough to function as the game's main loop? Most of the footage I've seen entails 90% walking on a realitvely flat surface without much of anything happening. I would imagine that a game about challenging traversal would have really rough terrain, spots that are extremely difficult to reach, adverse weather conditions and a variety of survival elements. Judging exclusively from the footage I've seen, it seems that traversal isn't much of an issue most of the time. Is this different when actually playing the game?

 

[thuway]

Has anyone thought of the remote possibility of this being a translation consequence or something being lost in translation?

 

[TitanicFall]

I'd counter with the overwhelming positive reception he got from his demo where there is no combat and you just walk repeatedly through the same hallway.

 

[Stef]

gone home doesn't have any action and got wildly good scores. there are all kinds of non-shooters that

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gone home doesn't have any action and got wildly good scores. there are all kinds of non-shooters that are beloved.

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So much this.

 

[Umbrella Carp]

Has anyone thought of the remote possibility of this being a translation consequence or something being lost in translation?

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Everyone doubts that because it's Kojima who said it.

 

[NoName999]

Go look at review averages and sales charts. They show he's wrong

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It's very obvious the Kojima-stans are ignoring that fact. Anything to flaunt their god's superiority or something.

Wasn't the lowest ranking reviews in Australia iirc? Where's the stereotype of Aussies being ignorant?

 

[Deleted member 5129]

Giantbomb called it shit but so far it's just the opposite for me.

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Yeah, it's hilarious the stuff some people wrote in their reviews. I love the game - it's great. People need to open themselves up for other experiences instead of always wanting instant gratification.

 

[Deleted member 41520]

Thank you all for your impressions. What I want to ask you and anyone else who feels like answering is this: Is traversal challenging enough and interesting enough to function as the game's main loop? Most of the footage I've seen entails 90% walking on a realitvely flat surface without much of anything happening. I would imagine that a game about challenging traversal would have really rough terrain, spots that are extremely difficult to reach, adverse weather conditions and a variety of survival elements. Judging exclusively from the footage I've seen, it seems that traversal isn't much of an issue most of the time. Is this different when actually playing the game?

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It's pretty well balanced imo.
- probably 30% of your delivery time is under stress/tension. 70% of it isn't and is less considered - but it works well because when things kick off, it's never gets "too much". Not intense for too long. There are spikes of risk/intensity. The "pacing" of the pressure is good
- the mechanics are deep. Even just for walking. Just two days ago I had a full blown "aha" moment realising how to control my weight while moving at high speed. So even if many deliveries are simplistic, you gain a lot of satisfaction from the sense of *improvement* you experience through extended play
- the RPG aspects are very strong. Getting new gear, being able to handle more, improving the world more as you go... And it feeds into the risk/reward gameplay - it's satisfying knowing the payoff you get for taking more deliveries on or doing them better, juggling more. Of course this means risk increases too... So as you get more ambitious with your expeditions, the risk increases
- as you progress through the game the world throws a lot more risks at you and the geometry/biomes change a lot. Early game is all pretty dull grassy or sandy hills and slopes. I'm not that far but later game looks like crazy tall mountains and wild weather events and more - the risk on each delivery skyrocketing unless players really build their infrastructure carefully

Lol talking about building infrastructure in an adventure game. What a world.

Yeah, it's hilarious the stuff some people wrote in their reviews. I love the game - it's great. People need to open themselves up for other experiences instead of always wanting instant gratification.

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Might be another case of review pressure-cooker.

Many games are not designed to be sat with and mainlined in a room, rushing to hit "complete". I've experienced this first hand - being given a game to review can be a very different experience to relaxedly playing for fun when you can. (Deadline, coherent evaluation, awareness of politic/expectation, etc.)

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Go look at review averages and sales charts. They show he's wrong

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I don't understand what you're trying to say, from a quick look at Opencritic, most below average reviews are indeed coming from the US, with some from Canada, the UK and Australia.

So much this.

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Do we really have to remind people that the expectation behind a AAA games and indie games are different and factor into the review? Not to mention that Gone Home was a surprise will Death Stranding was highly anticipated.

 

[Virtual Reality]

Thank you all for your impressions. What I want to ask you and anyone else who feels like answering is this: Is traversal challenging enough and interesting enough to function as the game's main loop? Most of the footage I've seen entails 90% walking on a realitvely flat surface without much of anything happening. I would imagine that a game about challenging traversal would have really rough terrain, spots that are extremely difficult to reach, adverse weather conditions and a variety of survival elements. Judging exclusively from the footage I've seen, it seems that traversal isn't much of an issue most of the time. Is this different when actually playing the game?

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Traversal is a gameplay mechanic. You have to think about the terrain, rivers and rain etc. If you don't you can seriously damage your cargo or lose it.

 

[Landford]

Thank you all for your impressions. What I want to ask you and anyone else who feels like answering is this: Is traversal challenging enough and interesting enough to function as the game's main loop? Most of the footage I've seen entails 90% walking on a realitvely flat surface without much of anything happening. I would imagine that a game about challenging traversal would have really rough terrain, spots that are extremely difficult to reach, adverse weather conditions and a variety of survival elements. Judging exclusively from the footage I've seen, it seems that traversal isn't much of an issue most of the time. Is this different when actually playing the game?

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Yes, it is. The terrain can get insanely difficult to the point where you think "Wait, what? How the fuck will i get through this", and then you think on a clever solution and overcome it. As the game gets more and more difficult, it also gives you a sandbox of new tools so you can get over them. And its not really a puzzle in the sense of "There is one solution, figure it out", since you can travel all around the game world from many different angles, with many different types of cargo, so its a bit "immsersive" sim in that aspect.

One of the best feelings is seeing that your work is actually improving and changing the world around you. You can struggle with a delivery through some cliffs, only to get back to it at a later point and see that a group of players built a bridge there, while you trot around in a car looking down at that time where you where juggling 200kg of cargo down there in the rocks.

 

[Deleted member 20297]

Has anyone thought of the remote possibility of this being a translation consequence or something being lost in translation?

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*Barely.

I'd wonder what the literal translation was. He could be taking about 'within the AAA space'. It does have a sort of bipolar thing going on in terms of product positioning.

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With Kojima, there's always stuff that's lost in translation, or that has a different connotation in japanese.

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I find this generalization of American reviewer tastes absurd. I also find it odd he's saying this, given that it still reviewed well. It rubs me the wrong way to dismiss criticism in the way this quote suggests.

However, I do have to ask: is this an English translation of an Italian translation of a Japanese response to an Italian question? Using Google Translate, I got similar results to what wccftech wrote, but I'm wondering if anyone else has verified the English-to-Italian translation.

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tbh i don´t believe for one second that he said it exactly in this way, this seems lost in translation somehow...not surprising when it was translated from italian to english to japanese and back

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So this is an article translated from Italian quoting a Japanese speaker. I'd be willing to bet that what he actually said wasn't "flies higher," he's been mistranslated plenty of times and people love to pounce on him for precise phrases that have gone through multiple layers of translation.

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One thing to bear in mind is that this site is quite literally using Google translate to work out what was said in an Italian interview, which will have in itself been translated from Japanese, Kojima's native and only full speaking language.

As we know and have seen from Kojima in the past, a lot can get lost in translation, so it's a bit difficult to judge based off a two way translated answer.

Hideo Kojima's Controversial Tweets Are Different In Japanese

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he probably said something mostly reasonable, and then google translate plus journalism amplification turns into a real story.

I'm sure no one would overreact with clicks if someone found that Kojima said shooter hungry Americans are too fucking dumb to play his game...

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I think I'm more annoyed by the idiotic things people are saying in this thread than I am by Kojima's potentially poorly translated quote.

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I can't stop laughing.

So this wasn't a mistranslation? That's unfortunate.

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Not sure if this is a translation error or not. Seems like a stupid thing to say though. The game is polarizing but good enough where he shouldn't really feel a need to take shots at other genres.

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As someone with no skin in the game, this is pretty accurate tho. There's plenty of room for interpretation in translations and it's very easy make someone say the same thing that's techinically right but loses intention.

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I can see where he's coming from, but saying DS "flies higher" or requires "different artistic sensibility" are incredibly pretentious statements. It's possible something got lost in translation though.

I haven't had enough time to actually play the game yet (6 hours in and I'm fascinated by it so far, the gameplay is much more engaging than I expected). But I've spent a lot of time listening to reviews and impressions since the end of the embargo.

Dan Ryckert from Giant Bomb is exactly the person Kojima is talking about. He's a self-described, livelong Metal Gear fan but he gave up on DS after only playing for 8 hours. His reasoning was the boring gameplay and he mentioned on the most recent Beastcast that he always played the MGS games like Rambo. No attempt at stealth, just shooting his way through the games and wanting a cool guy action story. I generally really like Dan (I'm sure some of it is just an act, he's a wrestling guy after all) and to be fair, he didn't review the game. But he mentioned he would have given DS a 50 or 60/100 if he had done the review.

I'm not sure if Kojima is right in saying this is an American thing, but the fact that DS is going for something different than your typical AAA Shootfest must have rubbed reviewers with a taste similar to Dan's the wrong way.

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Surely something was mistranslated.

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I want to believe something was lost in translation but I'm just not sure how there's any way to spin this take to be anything other than shitty.

I suppose he could be playing up some American stereotype from outside of the country (?) as a joke, but that's still kinda lousy.

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Be careful with a retranscription that has been translated three times, just to say.

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I feel like gameplay aside, can't we just compare the story stuff. The game is fucking bonkers. Seems like translated to english non-sense, embarrassingly on the nose attempts at political commentary that yet still somehow lacks coherence.

Gameplay wise, pretty cool I guess.

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* not meant to be complete

 

[Asbsand]

Yeah, it's hilarious the stuff some people wrote in their reviews. I love the game - it's great. People need to open themselves up for other experiences instead of always wanting instant gratification.

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Idk, which game are we talking about again? DS has a lot of conventional Instant Gratification design to it. I practically feel the OCD rush every time I play it with all the lost cargo and constant results screens.

 

[ActWan]

28 pages lmfao

 

[Titanpaul]

Yeah, it's hilarious the stuff some people wrote in their reviews. I love the game - it's great. People need to open themselves up for other experiences instead of always wanting instant gratification.

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Did you read the Giantbomb review?

 

[Deleted member 5129]

Idk, which game are we talking about again? DS has a lot of conventional Instant Gratification design to it. I practically feel the OCD rush every time I play it with all the lost cargo and constant results screens.

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Fair, I guess I could've phrased it better. There's quite a few parts of it where just.. nothing really happens for a looong time and a lot of reviewers put that + the "repetitive" nature of it down as a negative and say it's boring even though it really is not.

It's a stupid argument to make anyways, in racing games all you do is drive a car with the exact same gameplay every race. In a shooter campaign all you ever do is run around and shoot your gun with cutscenes here and there. Barely ever changes. But then in Death Stranding, the primary gameplay hook is suddenly "repetitive" and "boring". Ah well. I just don't agree with a lot of the reviews that's all.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I don't understand what you're trying to say, from a quick look at Opencritic, most below average reviews are indeed coming from the US, with some from Canada, the UK and Australia.

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and a lot of the highest scores come from the US. there's not a region that's any more or less favorable than the other. and when you throw in reviews for other games, shooters ain't more favored. on Open Critic's 2019 all of fame, only two of the 12 listed are shooters

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Kojima's remarks are rather misguided in this case (as YawZah has documented in detail, here), but Sony's Jim Ryan made some interesting remarks back in 2016 that may be worth considering, in this context:

Did you have a highlight?
Jim Ryan: God of War.

I just saw it behind closed doors and thought it was really good. Interesting to see a game like that broadening out and focusing on an intimate story.
Jim Ryan: Yeah and it's a franchise which, historically, we've under-performed on in Europe compared to North America. It is a very violent franchise. Typically games with a high level of violence without much else tend to perform better in North America than everywhere else. So seeing that interesting storyline and the clear emotional bond between father and son gives me real hope that we can take this and do better with it than we have in the past.

When you say violent games perform better in North America, is there a flipside to that? Do you find games that perform better in other parts of the world.
Jim Ryan: Games that have a greater social component. For example PS2 franchises Singstar and Buzz and PlayStation Move games on PS3. They tended to do better in Europe. And games that appeal to family participation, they tend to do better too.

That's interesting. Now, Hideo Kojima. Him being let off the leash sounds equal parts exciting and terrifying…
Jim Ryan: Haha, that's your expression, not mine!

…are you letting him do his thing with Death Stranding?
Jim Ryan: I think within reason, yes, you have to with somebody like that. If you attempt to constrain him, that is not a recipe for success. He's a really good guy, he did a tour of all our studios and I did one with him in London. He's really energised. This is a new challenge and a big reset for him.

It must be after being on Metal Gear for so long.
Jim Ryan: Yeah, obviously it didn't end well...

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[Dorfdad]

Beautiful engine, but the game is preachy and boring IMHO.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

and a lot of the highest scores come from the US. there's not a region that's any more or less favorable than the other. and when you throw in reviews for other games, shooters ain't more favored. on Open Critic's 2019 all of fame, only two of the 12 listed are shooters

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But none of that goes against what he's saying. He's saying that based on cultural differences, US critics may be less inclined to like the game. That doesn't mean that no US critic can.

 

[megalowho]

Fair, I guess I could've phrased it better. There's quite a few parts of it where just.. nothing really happens for a looong time and a lot of reviewers put that + the "repetitive" nature of it down as a negative and say it's boring even though it really is not.

It's a stupid argument to make anyways, in racing games all you do is drive a car with the exact same gameplay every race. In a shooter campaign all you ever do is run around and shoot your gun with cutscenes here and there. Barely ever changes. But then in Death Stranding, the primary gameplay hook is suddenly "repetitive". Ah well. I just don't agree with a lot of the reviews that's all.

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You're not even engaging with the crux of the Giant Bomb review here. From the last paragraph:

There's a deep thread of insecurity that runs through it, one that manifests in its unwillingness to commit all the way to the arduousness of its main character's task, that's too willing to break that quietness with mediocre action, and that never trusts the player to understand even its most basic ideas without hitting them over the head with them. There is a weirdo, avant spirit to Death Stranding that I do admire, but that spirit fails to carry the game anywhere worthwhile.

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That's not calling it shit or putting it down as repetitive.

 

[Stef]

Do we really have to remind people that the expectation behind a AAA games and indie games are different and factor into the review? Not to mention that Gone Home was a surprise will Death Stranding was highly anticipated.

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Do we have to remind people that Gone Home was just one of the possible examples of non-shooter acclaimed videogames?

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I just have to laugh fjdjdj!

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Do we have to remind people that Gone Home was just one of the possible examples of non-shooter acclaimed videogames?

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And how many of those are 60$ games with a huge marketing campaign?

You have action games and sports game, that's basically it.

 

[TheGhost]

Yeah, it's hilarious the stuff some people wrote in their reviews. I love the game - it's great. People need to open themselves up for other experiences instead of always wanting instant gratification.

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And they will.....when it's free on Ps+ or PSNOW, Right now it doesn't look like a game to drop $60 on

 

[jpbonadio]

Death Stranding is the 2001: A Space Odyssey of the gaming industry.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

Kojima: "why some people don't like my tedious game?"

 

[Jegriva]

Nah, they were primarily stealth games which is the most niche genre there is.

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Nah. Thief was a million seller, Splinter Cell was always a million seller.

If you want niche, look at visual novel, puzzles, point n click or grand strategy games.

 

[Abominuz]

I am smart and i understand Kojima games. Most people are not that smart, go play your bang bang shootahs with your IQ of 30.

 

[Betty]

I am smart and i understand Kojima games. Most people are not that smart, go play your bang bang shootahs.

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Wow, original and thoughtful comment bro, no one's made the IQ joke yet, well memed.

 

[Thorrgal]

gone home doesn't have any action and got wildly good scores. there are all kinds of non-shooters that are beloved.

game is boring, some people didn't like it. Stop avoiding criticism.

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You say the game is boring it like is a fact lol

In spite of that it got a record number (for 2019) of 9s-10s.

The only truth in your statement is that some people didn't like it

 

[ILikeFeet]

But none of that goes against what he's saying. He's saying that based on cultural differences, US critics may be less inclined to like the game. That doesn't mean that no US critic can.

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those same cultural preferences would paint ALL reviews. but the reviews show they don't. Kojima is making wrong conclusions here

 

[Stef]

And how many of those are 60$ games with a huge marketing campaign?

You have action games and sports game, that's basically it.

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I don't know... let me think about it...

Journey?
Detroit?
Shadow of the Colossus?
Horizon?
Various RPGs?

You are bulding a narrative around nothing.

 

[Betty]

I don't know... let me think about it...

Journey?
Detroit?
Shadow of the Colossus?
Horizon?
Various RPGs?

You are bulding a narrative around nothing.

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Poster was quoting a post about Gone Home, all the above you mentioned aren't like Gone Home at all.

And out of all of them i'd say only Horizon came close to having a huge marketing push... not to mention it's not at all considered a walking simulator... as far as I know.

 

[Browser]

Kojima is the last person i would think would make these kind of comments, it probably sold well, he made the game he wanted with what seems to be little oversight in his own timeline, he seems happy with the game he made, is it really that hard for him to believe that people just straight out didn't like the game because of the game itself?

 

[Ponchito]

Yes I noticed lower review scores were mainly from American outlets.

In Mexico it also got pretty much perfect 10 review scores. Including myself ;)

 

[Mass_Pincup]

those same cultural preferences would paint ALL reviews. but the reviews show they don't. Kojima is making wrong conclusions here

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Not really, cultural preferences do not affect everyone the same way, that's why we're using average to show a trend usually.

 

[bbq of doom]

He sells his products to the global audience in regular basis?

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So? That means he must learn another language? Should he know every language of every country in which his games are sold?

 

[Titanpaul]

Yes I noticed lower review scores were mainly from American outlets.

In Mexico it also got pretty much perfect 10 review scores. Including myself ;)

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Something like this is getting posted on every other page. Please stop with this take:

 

[Deleted member 7148]

I think it's a little unfair to say the game scored lower here because we love shooters. He's not lying, we love shooters, but they SELL well. Ghost Recon Breakpoint is selling really well and it was pretty much universally panned. It has nothing to do with reviews. Weird, unique games get glowing reviews all the time, especially in the indie scene. Kojima's problem is that he made a unique, interesting experience but he made it too goddamn long and it wore out its welcome. This is coming from someone who really digs Death Standing too, but I can't deny that the game is bloated as hell. If this was a 15-20 hour experience I think people would have been more positive on it.

 

[llLeonhart]

Oh Come on Kojima, I've been playing it, and loving it, but that's not the reason, in fact, I've unlocked four "bases" in the game, and unlocked the Standard Orders feature... I would not recommend for anyone playing to focus on those before advancing the story because, that's what I did, and basically spent my whole sunday going back and forth between those four bases. The trike has made it even less interesting.

You made a divisive game, that's all, Some people, like me, will stay for the intriguing story, others will bail because of the repetitive nature of the game.

Also, MULEs, and melee suck.

 

[texhnolyze]

So? That means he must learn another language? Should he know every language of every country in which his games are sold?

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No, but English is an International language, and it's his job to convey his messages directly. My original point was if he were even just half-fluent in English, we wouldn't have to worry about "lost in translation". As I said, he's been in the industry for so long (and watched way more movies per year than me), it's just weird that his English never improved.

 

[Pryme]

Kojima's remarks are rather misguided in this case (as YawZah has documented in detail, here), but Sony's Jim Ryan made some interesting remarks back in 2016 that may be worth considering, in this context:

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Not really the same thing, since Jim Ryan is talking about consumer preference, not reviewer bias.

 

[Combo]

I don't know how good DS is but I must give credit to Kojima for saying the truth about the stupidity of most gamers.

 

[Platy]

I can't believe you guys would say Kojima has an ego.
Would a man with an ego have a wall full of celebrity selfies at an art gallery for his game?

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It's real, I took the pic myself at the pop-up gallery last Friday. You can read about the event here:

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2019/11/06/youre-invited-the-art-of-death-stranding-gallery-event/

What that blog doesn't tell you is that after your reservation gets read and you get past that nice lit hall with the Ludens statue, the very first thing you see is a showcase of Kojima's conference passes and Death Stranding's pre-release awards:

Not only that, but the gallery's walls were plastered with Kojima quotes.

But what really struck me is that despite the event being a gallery, NOTHING was labeled except for the selfie wall.
So I had no idea who made any of this gorgeous concept art.

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I just want to quote this for the newer pages because holy fuck

 

[bbq of doom]

No, but English is an International language, and it's his job to convey his messages directly. My original point was if he were even just half-fluent in English, we wouldn't have to worry about "lost in translation". As I said, he's been in the industry for so long (and watched way more movies per year than me), it's just weird that his English never improved.

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It's also the job of a translator to translate his messages correctly and of a reporter to report his messages correctly.

Is it weird he hasn't learned more of it? I guess. But in no way should he need to, IMO.

 

[Stef]

Poster was quoting a post about Gone Home, all the above you mentioned aren't like Gone Home at all.

And out of all of them i'd say only Horizon came close to having a huge marketing push... not to mention it's not at all considered a walking simulator... as far as I know.

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Someone here is forgetting the marketing push for Detroit, for instance...


You can't build a theory on nothing.

 

[Titanpaul]

I don't know how good DS is but I must give credit to Kojima for saying the truth about the stupidity of most gamers.

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This is a bad take. What you might have meant was "mass appeal"?

By your logic, Marvel films are only good because "even the stupids can enjoy"

 

[Servbot24]

No, but English is an International language, and it's his job to convey his messages directly. My original point was if he were even just half-fluent in English, we wouldn't have to worry about "lost in translation". As I said, he's been in the industry for so long (and watched way more movies per year than me), it's just weird that his English never improved.

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That is ridiculous. How about as gamers we simply don't over-react with a mega-thread every time he makes an awkwardly phrased tweet.

 

[Deleted member 543]

That gallery event is something else.