• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

What do you think of KoTOR's plot twist?

  • 7/7 - One of the very best plot twist in all of gaming. Very few other can match it.

    Votes: 390 56.4%
  • 6/7 - Not quite the pinnacle of plot twists, but the next best thing.

    Votes: 82 11.8%
  • 5/7 - A very good plot twist.

    Votes: 167 24.1%
  • 4/7 - It was good, but not anything beyond that.

    Votes: 34 4.9%
  • 3/7 - It was just ok.

    Votes: 15 2.2%
  • 2/7 - It was bad.

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • 1/7 - It was terrible. You can't do a plot twist too much worse than that.

    Votes: 1 0.1%

  • Total voters
    692

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,526
São Paulo - Brazil
Star Wars, particularly KoTOR, has been a lot of my mind recently. Watching the second season of the Mandalorian and playing the Jedi Knight series probably have something to do with it. And so, obviously, I decided to replay that game.

And there are s many great things about it that it's hard to know which ones to talk about. For one, it's fantastic just how quickly the magic comes back. The Endar Spire is such a strong openning, and just sell you to this particular take about the Star Wars universe instantly.

But I just wanted to say a few words about what I consider to be the best plot twist I ever experienced, anywhere. I can remember the first time I went through that moment in the Leviathan as if it had just happened. I was so shocked that I had to walk in circles around my room for a while to try to process the awesomeness and the consequences of what I had witnessed.

And replaying the game (I lost count how many times I did since then) I often find incredible just how well the game build that moment up. And in many different ways. You have moments like this for example:

hqdefault.jpg


That are embedded with an entire new meaning now. But you also have moments like this:



or this:

maxresdefault.jpg


The game constantly acknowledges that there is something wrong going on, that there is something off. When Bastila get worked up when Candorous talks about running a background check on your character. The insinuations of the Jedi masters. The hints of coversations between other characters... I could go on and on.

And this is what makes the reveal so brilliant. It doesn't come out of no where. You know, playing the game for the first time, something is coming. And you're all but certain it has to do with Revan. But the game keeps you exactly where it wants you. As I've read somewhere, it plays with the idea that your character is great simply because you're the protagonist of the story, and this is the norm with games. Carth might find suspicious the Jedi order to send you after Malak, but to the player it's only obvious.

The Leviathan is just a final crescendo of this build up that reaches a level of legendary storytelling. And when the moments hit it hits hard.

I like to say KoTOR is the only game I played for the first time twice, because playing the game again with the knowledge you obtained is a completely different experience.

Just a brilliant game.
 

Red

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,787
It's a fine twist, but also predictable for exactly the reasons you described. That doesn't make it bad. But it's not a surprise.
 

Kawngi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,221
I still randomly think about it to this day. Such a good game.
 

Zebesian-X

Member
Dec 3, 2018
19,992
It blew my mind as a kid. Replaying recently definitely made me realize how predictable it was, but it's still a great plot point.

Game is an all-timer :( give it the bluepoint treatment
 

Massicot

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,232
United States
It's really hard to place myself in the mindset of the time and try not to be cynical with hindsight, now obviously aware of the twist for 15+ years. But yes, I think it's great. It's nicely breadcrumbed without being overly signposted. It's cohesive and not awkwardly out of left field in an attempt to simply subvert for no real purpose. There are some aspects of KoTOR I think are dumb (the Star Forge...) but this isn't one of those.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,526
São Paulo - Brazil
It's a fine twist, but also predictable for exactly the reasons you described. That doesn't make it bad. But it's not a surprise.

I believe the best plottwists can work even if you figure them out beforehand. Just realizing you were right and that the story went in the direction you thought it would can be a powerful moment. Something like this happened with me watching Mr. Robot recently.

To be frank, the only way I can process someone saying this game twist isn't great is if they went play the game with a preconception to not really like it or not be impressed by it.
 

score01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,708
7/7 for me. Maybe younger me was really dumb but I legit did not see that coming.
 

TinTuba47

Member
Nov 14, 2017
3,828
Loved that game so much. I find it unplayable in modern times due to combat and other issues, but holy shit did I have a good time with it. A remake would be amazing, if they actually made an effort to change the gameplay
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,100
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
I consider the plot in SW:Kotor the best plot of all Star Wars related (movies included, even the original 3).

I recently replayed Kotor2 with the mod and wow, soo good.

But yeah, best plot/plot twist in video games and in the Star Wars universe in general.

I would double/triple dip if they remade it like the FF7 remake..
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,869
KOTOR's twist, the first time in, genuinely got me - looking back now it wasn't exactly subtle, but imo there was just enough framework to explain away the oddities....at least until you're suddenly made a jedi out of the blue, lol.

Definitely a 6 or 7 out of 7 for me.

I adore KOTOR, but I liked Jade Empire's twist better.

The 'problem' is that Jade Empire's twist is kinda.....spoiled by the fact that Bioware had recently done the thing (arguably better IMO) with KOTOR.

That, and it felt like Jade Empire's was more blatantly broadcast - multiple people, as the game goes on, comment on your 'style' having some weakness they can't quite exploit, but could notice.

Who else would have put it in there, save for your teacher?
 

Caiusto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,945
If didn't become so obvious early on in the game I think it would work better, but it's still a very good plot twist.
 

GearDraxon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,786
I'm actually playing through KotOR again, for the first time since it released, and I had the same thoughts: all of the little hints towards the reveal that sound like standard RPG "blank slate" boilerplate take on new meaning when you know what's coming.

Being able to play it with a ton of mods (including a limited form of ray tracing!) has been a lot of fun.
 

Nephtes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,563
The best twists are the ones you don't see coming and yet have evidence to back them up littered all over the preceding moments of the story.

The Sixth Sense
Planet of the Apes
Fight Club
Bioshock

all masterful examples. They hold up on rewatch.

KotoR's Twist absolutely fits in with these, and the story is so much richer on second play through when you're in on it. Some scenes take on powerful new meaning.

But there's an art to the twist. Some stories leave too much info lying around and every viewer sees the twist coming a mile away:
Davinci Code

But worse than this are media with twists that have absolutely no backing evidence in the story prior to the twist...
I'm looking at you Netflix's Bridgerton. Just the worst.

Anyway, yes, KotoR's twist is still so good. I wish I could erase it from my memory and experience it again.
 

ASilentProtagonist

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,900
They made the signs too obvious, would've been more effective if it was foreshadowed less obviously.

"Would you kindly?" is a much better twist.
 

CreepingFear

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,766
I was not trying to look for a twist, so for me it was definitely one of my all time "mind blown" moments.
 

Puddington

Member
Nov 2, 2017
322
7/7 because I don't remember seeing it coming and it's part of the reason that game is super memorable. Though, even without the twist, KOTOR is the game that made Star Wars really click with me with all its fun lore. Don't think I would have called myself a Star Wars fan before then.
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
I remember nthis I hadn't realized it before hand but the hints were there, that's the sign of a good twist it can be obvious or subtle but they have to build to something
 

CollectedDust

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,046
Indiana
5 / 7 for me. I played the game on the OG Xbox when it was new, but I still saw it coming (lots of foreshadowing). It was still good, but not some crazy surprise.

Curious as to how old folks were when they played this if they give the twist a 7/7. I'm wondering if my being older made it "more predicable" compared to someone who was younger when this came out.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,125
One of the greatest shames of my life is that I got spoiled on the plot twist while I was playing it so I never got to experience that moment as intended.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
The 'problem' is that Jade Empire's twist is kinda.....spoiled by the fact that Bioware had recently done the thing (arguably better IMO) with KOTOR.

That, and it felt like Jade Empire's was more blatantly broadcast - multiple people, as the game goes on, comment on your 'style' having some weakness they can't quite exploit, but could notice.

Who else would have put it in there, save for your teacher?

Does anyone actually say it's a weakness until Sun Li kills you with it? I had the impression that people described it as a barely perceptible idiosyncrasy that makes your moves hard to predict. I assumed the initial impression is that it's presented as some special protagonist that marks you as some kind of Chosen One, at least before the rug gets pulled out from under you.

I legitimately don't remember this very well but that's always the impression I had.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
I thought it was great, I didn't see it coming at all. One of Bioware's best, I really miss that era of the developer.
 

Red

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,787
I believe the best plottwists can work even if you figure them out beforehand. Just realizing you were right and that the story went in the direction you thought it would can be a powerful moment. Something like this happened with me watching Mr. Robot recently.

To be frank, the only way I can process someone saying this game twist isn't great is if they went play the game with a preconception to not really like it or not be impressed by it.
It was fine. My favorite twists in media force me to reconceptualize what's come before. Kotor's did not. That doesn't make it bad. The plot just sort of trudged along in the direction I expected.

"Twists" generally don't do much for me, and the one here was no different. I appreciated Kotor more for its characters and side stories. Revan was the least interesting part for me.
 

Andrain18

Member
Apr 19, 2018
178
Orange County CA
It's one of the gaming moment in my life that i'll never forget. i was 11 years old at the time but damn was that an incredible moment. Today i look at 11 year olds and i'm a cynical little twat, i dont think they'd understand or appreciate it if it came out today. But i guess that just me being the old man yelling at clouds i suppose. haha.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,526
São Paulo - Brazil
5 / 7 for me. I played the game on the OG Xbox when it was new, but I still saw it coming (lots of foreshadowing). It was still good, but not some crazy surprise.

Curious as to how old folks were when they played this if they give the twist a 7/7. I'm wondering if my being older made it "more predicable" compared to someone who was younger when this came out.

I don't think it has to do with age, or at least not directly. I already mentioned Mr. Robot as an example of a twist that I saw coming, and one of the reasons is certainly other films that I watched that had a similar approach. As you experience more stories, it becomes easier for the person to see certain trends that might led them to "know" what is going to happen. That's why good stories often play with those expectations.

But as I mentioned, I don't see figuring it out as a factor that diminishes the moment. Of course, the surprise might give it a weight that it might not otherwise achieve, and so in that sense it might make the twist less memorable. But it's only if you had a mindset of "Oh I figure out so I'm too smart for this game, try harder next time" that the twist really becomes lesser in the person's eye.
 

Sanguine

Member
Jun 10, 2018
1,276
3/7 at best for me. Dunno, it was too predictable for me (and I say that as someone who sucks at predicting that stuff) and I don't know, it just felt unimportant (despite what the reveal was)? I remember thinking... "okay" and just trudging on. I suppose it didn't help that I didn't care for the game and just wanted to finish it...
 

Deleted member 864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,544
One of my favorite plot twists ever in a game. I unfortunately knew about it already since I was kind of a late player for KOTOR and it already had been spoiled for me long ago, but it was still really fun to see play out.
 

Midas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,554
I never saw it coming. But I was, obviously, much younger back then. Not sure if I would catch it as an older person.
 

modestb

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
1,126
I want to see receipts from 2003 for anyone who claims to have called the twist ahead of time, I don't believe y'all lol
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
I don't think it's hyperbole to say that bioware created one of the best era's in star wars, I have yet to play watch or read something set in the old republic that was bad
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,786
The game that saved gaming for me. Got me back into it in 2005. I also played thru it twice, it's sequel too.

wish they had kept it going in the 2000s
 

Exist 2 Inspire

Powered by Friendship™
Member
Apr 19, 2018
3,996
Germany
It is pretty good. I played the game for the first time in 2016, a small wonder i was never spoiled about the twist before.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
It's a great twist not because it's some narrative masterpiece but because it turns on it's head all the assumed bullshit video game conventions that existed up that point and beyond.

There's hundreds of other video game stories where Revan would just be special once is blue moon rookie who just levels up and becomes obscenely powerful because the story demanded so. It works because audience was so accustomed to such shit storytelling that when it turns out there was a reason the characters acted the way they did and why the mc acted progressed the way he did it comes as a shock.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,338
I was in college when this came out and I literally stood up with a shocked faced when it happened.

Bioshock is the only other game to have done it to me.
 

Sargerus

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,925
I don't think it's hyperbole to say that bioware created one of the best era's in star wars, I have yet to play watch or read something set in the old republic that was bad
Go play SWTOR expansions. And Bioware didn't created the Old Republic, they adapted it from the Tales of the Jedi comics
51rQBuk0wdL.jpg
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
it's neat but knowing so much about it going in made it pretty underwhelming in execution

I think a remake with modern production values in the cinematography would really make it shine, though at this point it's such a known thing that it would automatically have lost its luster
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
As a Bioware game veteran, I kinda expected the twist. Once I lived through being a "Bhaalspawn", the writing was on the wall for what KOTOR's twist was going to be.

Did I still like it, though? Of course! 5/7.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,869
Does anyone actually say it's a weakness until Sun Li kills you with it? I had the impression that people described it as a barely perceptible idiosyncrasy that makes your moves hard to predict. I assumed the initial impression is that it's presented as some special protagonist that marks you as some kind of Chosen One, at least before the rug gets pulled out from under you.

I legitimately don't remember this very well but that's always the impression I had.

There's definitely at least one enemy (I think it's in the arena section) who says something along the lines of 'I thought it was a weakness, but tried to exploit it and got burned - but 'someone' could exploit said weakness if they were strong enough'

....or had taught your style to you.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,899
One of the best. It's up there with any I can think of in a game. It's times like this I wish I could temporarily erase memories because I would love to see if it hold up to a much older me.