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Wise

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,228
Naturally, both Disney and Pixar are fairly exacting about how their properties look in someone else's game, but that goes pretty deep. Any recreation of a Disney asset has to be approved, and any change explained. As lead facial animator Kayoko Yajima puts it: "There was actually a lot of pressure to get even the smallest details that you wouldn't even think would be that important to look like they do in the movie."

Cutscene animators seem to have it hardest of all. Square's animators work specifically from documentation given by the various Disney teams, but even then it might not come out precisely enough for the original creators. Yakima continues: "we get requests from Disney and Pixar like, 'we want them to be showing less teeth here,' or 'their eyelids need to move differently,' or 'their line of sight isn't quite right'. Of course, cutscenes are where the soul of the character comes out, so it was something that we put a lot of effort into and adjusted down to the minutiae
.

For gameplay animators, every individual action is approved down to the smallest detail: "You know, we'll program an action in and Disney or Pixar will say 'that's a bit too violent', or 'they wouldn't do that sort of thing'," says animation director Koji Inoue. "When it came to Remy from Ratatouille, they talked a lot about the precise movements of his tail."

Series creator Tetsuya Nomura says that, generally speaking, Pixar cares more about the "technical, creative side of things", while Disney focuses more on "the overall production". Speaking to various teams, it becomes clear that Pixar is a little more precious of its property, asking to approve more stages of production, even participating in weekly conference calls with animation teams to make sure everything is created in its image.

It's an approach Nomura clearly empathises with: "I would say that we, as a company and a team, are more like Pixar."

Series creator Tetsuya Nomura says that, generally speaking, Pixar cares more about the "technical, creative side of things", while Disney focuses more on "the overall production". Speaking to various teams, it becomes clear that Pixar is a little more precious of its property, asking to approve more stages of production, even participating in weekly conference calls with animation teams to make sure everything is created in its image.

It's an approach Nomura clearly empathises with: "I would say that we, as a company and a team, are more like Pixar."

Pixar's teams in particular could be fairly exacting about what they want their worlds to look and feel like – but some decisions were subject to major discussions well before they became reality.

Nomura explains that his vision for Kingdom Hearts has always been that Sora and friends canonically arrive in Disney's worlds. That didn't suit the Toy Story team. "When I first brought this to Pixar and I asked about doing that, they were like, 'Actually, no. The Toy Story story is complete. It's a complete package the way it is, and we can't really change that.' I told them if I'm going to do this in the Kingdom Hearts way, then it's going to become a case of, 'Actually, Sora and his friends did come into the world.'"

Full interview - https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/0...challenges-and-rewards-of-working-with-disney

Close if old
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Nomura explains that his vision for Kingdom Hearts has always been that Sora and friends canonically arrive in Disney's worlds. That didn't suit the Toy Story team. "When I first brought this to Pixar and I asked about doing that, they were like, 'Actually, no. The Toy Story story is complete. It's a complete package the way it is, and we can't really change that.' I told them if I'm going to do this in the Kingdom Hearts way, then it's going to become a case of, 'Actually, Sora and his friends did come into the world.'"
I'm of two minds with this.

For Toy Story, at least, I can't imagine it working well the normal way because Toy Story doesn't necessarily have a villain, per se. It's sequels do though. And having an original story was fine for it. But at the same time, the whole fun thing about Kingdom Hearts is where Sora is somehow canonically part of the story like a fanfiction. And removing or sidestepping that makes it less enjoyable, at least to me. I want to be in an active role alongside these Disney characters, I don't want to feel like I'm in the backseat, I want be in the passenger seat (a co-lead) that helps push and drive the story forward.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
11,574
I assume these kind of back and forth is what kept the Disney worlds from being really connected to the main story nonsense.

Curious how much meetings and discussion happen about mickey? Dude is integral to the story haha.
 

wbloop

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,269
Germany
The Toy Story argument that Pixar brought with TS being complete and finished is a bit weird considering they are working on a direct sequel to TS3.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
The Toy Story argument that Pixar brought with TS being complete and finished is a bit weird considering they are working on a direct sequel to TS3.
I believe they mean each individual story. So they hardwalled Nomura that Sora cannot be canonically part of something like Toy Story 1's story, so Nomura instead created an original story for that world.
 

xfactor99

Member
Oct 28, 2017
728
Would love for Woody to mention the time he told Young Xehanort to go fuck himself in Toy Story 4
 

MayorSquirtle

Member
May 17, 2018
7,926
I assume these kind of back and forth is what kept the Disney worlds from being really connected to the main story nonsense.

Curious how much meetings and discussion happen about mickey? Dude is integral to the story haha.
In KH1, Disney only allowed Nomura to use Mickey in one scene, seen from a distance, and he made sure to use that to its fullest effect. Considering how prominent Mickey has been ever since then, I imagine that Disney has been happy enough with the series that they've more or less given Nomura permission to use Mickey however he wants (within reason), just like Donald and Goofy.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
In KH1, Disney only allowed Nomura to use Mickey in one scene, seen from a distance, and he made sure to use that to its fullest effect. Considering how prominent Mickey has been ever since then, I imagine that Disney has been happy enough with the series that they've more or less given Nomura permission to use Mickey however he wants (within reason), just like Donald and Goofy.
That was something of a weird thing for Disney back then and the use of Mickey Mouse. Like, they didn't even allow Mickey to make an actual appearance in their own Disney cartoons like Bonkers, which was set in toon town. You got get to meet other Disney characters, all except Mickey. As a teen I just figured this was just another thing where all you may get is a voice or a silhouette of Mickey. So KH2 was a big surprise, especially him acting like some kind of ninja.
 
Feb 13, 2018
3,842
Japan
Yeah, I figured this was the reason for some of the more lackluster worlds, especially Frozen's. It seems like the Toy Story and maybe Big Hero 6 teams were more open to adding more creative decisions to their worlds. BH6's world did seem a bit rushed to me though. I wonder how they collaborated with the Pirates guys though? Did they talk with the writer, the director, just some Disney brand managing guys or what?
 

Railgun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,148
Australia
The Toy Story and Monsters Inc worlds were the best by far. It's so much better when they have their own original stories. Allows for more leeway in being involved in the overall plot as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
The cutscenes are much better in this game when it comes to Disney characters.
The Toy story is great with a lot of their animation, but I feel like Disney's protectiveness on frozen hurt that level
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
Speaking to various teams, it becomes clear that Pixar is a little more precious of its property, asking to approve more stages of production, even participating in weekly conference calls with animation teams to make sure everything is created in its image.
That explains the two best scenes in the game, then!
 

Delaney

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,218
Toy Box was the worst world in the game imo and a huge disappointment since Toy Story is one of my favorite movies. The characters playing hot potato with Young Xehanort's scalp at the end sort of redeemed it, though.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
With all those crazy rules they had to keep up with, I'm highly surprised they were ok with the rendition of Mickey's voice. Granted I haven't watched any recent Mickey Mouse cartoons but I'll still watch the old ones from time to time, but they could have got a better voice actor no?

Then again I found Toy Story world the one I most looked forward to but also finished it being the most dissapointing, where everything in the Tangled world I'm loving.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
With all those crazy rules they had to keep up with, I'm highly surprised they were ok with the rendition of Mickey's voice. Granted I haven't watched any recent Mickey Mouse cartoons but I'll still watch the old ones from time to time, but they could have got a better voice actor no?
Mickey, Donald and Goofy all use their official voice actors. Any issues with their delivery is down to poor direction/writing.

To quote Eurogamer:
When you've got Donald Duck talking about "datascapes", something has gone badly wrong. Or, to paraphrase Harrison Ford: Tetsuya, you can type this shit, but you sure can't say it.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
In KH1, Disney only allowed Nomura to use Mickey in one scene, seen from a distance, and he made sure to use that to its fullest effect. Considering how prominent Mickey has been ever since then, I imagine that Disney has been happy enough with the series that they've more or less given Nomura permission to use Mickey however he wants (within reason), just like Donald and Goofy.
The way they did Mickey's appearance in KH1 was so Donald Ducking cool.

While I think like, the Frozen world probably suffered from Disney interference, it's the sign of a great storyteller that they can work within strict limitations and still create something great. As batty as the KH story can get it feels dismissive whenever people act like Nomura is just this hack who tripped his way into the Disney license.

With all those crazy rules they had to keep up with, I'm highly surprised they were ok with the rendition of Mickey's voice. Granted I haven't watched any recent Mickey Mouse cartoons but I'll still watch the old ones from time to time, but they could have got a better voice actor no?

Then again I found Toy Story world the one I most looked forward to but also finished it being the most dissapointing, where everything in the Tangled world I'm loving.
The Mickey voice in KH is the current Mickey for everything. Blame Disney on that one - and yes, I agree that he's not a great replacement, at least in KH.

Mickey, Donald and Goofy all use their official voice actors. Any issues with their delivery is down to poor direction/writing.

To quote Eurogamer:
I mean maybe, but to my ears it definitely felt like Wayne Allwine was better at navigating the KH jargon than the current guy.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,944
So, it's actually Nomura demanding that Sora and the gang follow the plots of Disney movies instead of creating original stories? Come the fuck on! How can he not see that original stories are better?
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,377
So, it's actually Nomura demanding that Sora and the gang follow the plots of Disney movies instead of creating original stories? Come the fuck on! How can he not see that original stories are better?

Yeah, this is insane. The Monster's Inc and Toy Story worlds are by far the best in the game imo because they're stand alone.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
This really explains why the content involving the OC characters is so..lifeless compared the stuff that directly involves Disney/Pixar characters.


Thank god Disney/Pixar's animators were sticklers about the tiny details.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,493
I'm only at the point of being about to start Frozen, but... yeah, Toy Box has sorta been the coolest world by far. And also one of the easiest maps to wrap my head around, given that's it's big but very clearly laid out. (It also has the advantage of being the one I absolutely feel the most nostalgia for!)

Monster's Inc. wasn't amazing as a level but I liked the story bits for the same reason; it obviously retreaded the plot of the movie still but you got some fun interactions that the movie's plot probably wouldn't have prompted. And as someone who watched Tangled and Frozen (and soon BH6 though I'd already planned on that) thanks to the feeling I got as soon as I started Toy Box - the nostalgia I immediately felt and the appreciation of the clear effort put into it made me want to appreciate that for the other upcoming worlds - it was a little weird to see Tangled's story be so close to the movie. Like, shot for shot in many cases. Sometimes hilariously, mind, in that a shot that was just the two main characters in the movie now has fucking Goofy standing there too, but sometimes tediously. And to some degree I... don't know if the plot made sense if you hadn't seen the movie, since I don't think they explained the backstory super clearly unless I'm misremembering?

Guess I'm sorta not looking forward to seeing Frozen do the same thing, but I enjoy the game enough that it's not the worst problem.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,096
So, it's actually Nomura demanding that Sora and the gang follow the plots of Disney movies instead of creating original stories? Come the fuck on! How can he not see that original stories are better?
KH1 is even more unusual in light of this news. All the Disney worlds in that game used original stories, so what happened between that game and the "follow abridged versions of the movie plots" that Nomura's been doing since KH2?
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,075
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
The Mickey voice in KH is the current Mickey for everything. Blame Disney on that one - and yes, I agree that he's not a great replacement, at least in KH.


I mean maybe, but to my ears it definitely felt like Wayne Allwine was better at navigating the KH jargon than the current guy.

Y'all need to stop hating on Bret Iwan. He sounds fine in literally everything else, from Mickey Mouse Clubhouse to the park attractions. This is down to KH and it's voice direction .
 

THE GUY

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,223
If there was ever any doubt of limiting Nomura's involvement in this series, this article basically removes it. One of the biggest flaws and weaknesses of this series has been how they've handled the Disney worlds. They've been poorly integrated and the worlds themselves have always felt lacking because the story within them usually feels like a shallow retelling. I'd always assumed it was because Disney was probably limiting Square Enix creatively, but apparently Nomura is the one who wants to follow the movies.

This dude has no clue frankly. Between his shitty writing and storytelling and leaning into this glaring flaw with the Disney worlds, he ain't right for the series anymore. It may be his brain child, but Kingdom Hearts has far more potential than what it currently is, and he's clearly limiting it. It's bloody bizarre that we're still dealing with most of the same glaring weaknesses in this series that it's had for over a decade, especially when KH1 dealt with the worlds differently. How can you not see that original stories would have more potential? Hell, Disney/Pixar may even give you some goddamn pointers from the sounds of it, considering they actually seem to care about how you represent the properties.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Nomura explains that his vision for Kingdom Hearts has always been that Sora and friends canonically arrive in Disney's worlds.
So, this is what I've always disagreed with. Sure, it's the attraction but it's specifically this that caused me to not give a shit about Sora in the past, because he's essentially a mary sue; a new character not previously established in a story, who suddenly becomes the cornerstone, everything they do is awesome, the plot is fixed because they are in it, their villains disgust them while all non-villains adore them. And nothing about those facts seem particularly earned for this new character.

The only retribution is Winnie The Pooh refering to Sora as "Mr. Somebody I don't know" and by nature having a kind of inconsequential plot. I'm not gonna defend the KH3 approach of making Sora & Co. a fly on the wall of the disjointed Disney movie beats they've entered, but it's actually better than previously where Sora is the fanfiction self-insert character, and God, I knew this was Nomura's philosophy and I'm glad to see it straight from the horse's mouth.

This dude has no clue frankly. Between his shitty writing and storytelling and leaning into this glaring flaw with the Disney worlds, he ain't right for the series anymore. It may be his brain child, but Kingdom Hearts has far more potential than what it currently is, and he's clearly limiting it.
While I think Nomura has no clue what proper dramatic structure or narrative coherence means, at this point what KH is belongs to him and it's his authenticity at display. You could remove him and make a plot everyone cares about that is super great, but at that point it would feel tonally and spiritually different. I want KH to continue being the weird clusterfuck that it is and have Nomura's awkward yet pretty zipper art design. I would be overjoyed to see him have an epiphany and realize he's been going at storytelling the wrong way since KH1 though.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Y'all need to stop hating on Bret Iwan. He sounds fine in literally everything else, from Mickey Mouse Clubhouse to the park attractions. This is down to KH and it's voice direction .
I'm sure he is fine in other stuff (I've only seen a few of those newish Mickey Mouse cartoons), that's why I clarified my opinion as far as KH - and only KH - goes.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Been thinking about it. KH3 is the most Donald has ever talked about "The Order" and that likely is Disney and Pixar coming through Donald's beak to keep things in order and separate. Which is baffling, and I dislike it so much because It would be nice to have some Disney worlds be aware of the outside worlds and the heartless like Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Yen Sid are, or like every single Final Fantasy character under the sun.

So, this is what I've always disagreed with. Sure, it's the attraction but it's specifically this that caused me to not give a shit about Sora in the past, because he's essentially a mary sue; a new character not previously established in a story, who suddenly becomes the cornerstone, everything they do is awesome, the plot is fixed because they are in it, their villains disgust them while all non-villains adore them. And nothing about those facts seem particularly earned for this new character.

The only retribution is Winnie The Pooh refering to Sora as "Mr. Somebody I don't know" and by nature having a kind of inconsequential plot. I'm not gonna defend the KH3 approach of making Sora & Co. a fly on the wall of the disjointed Disney movie beats they've entered, but it's actually better than previously where Sora is the fanfiction self-insert character, and God, I knew this was Nomura's philosophy and I'm glad to see it straight from the horse's mouth.
Original stories can be fine here and there, but I enjoy following the stories of the Disney movies like in past KH games. Frozen is an absolutely mess because he is just a fly on the wall, the kid in the back seat watching the people in the front seat drive things and make the decisions. And because the overall story is centered around Sora and the gang, you hardly see any of the movie, and plenty of conflicts and resolve mostly happen off-screen because of this. Hans isn't even introduced until the very end and all you see of him is his back, and the final climax of the movie, where he is quickly taken out and replaced with a heartless battle. Frozen is one of Disney's biggest movies and what was created in Kingdom Hearts was a downright disappointment.

Not to mention, there are NO battles with Disney villains in the game which is another disappointment. KH3, I felt little to no connections to any of the worlds compared to past games. I felt I was just going through the motions because there was nothing hooking me in, that it made me long for KH2's method of return visits just to have additional story beats and things to do in these worlds. Anything to find a connection.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,377
Why didn't he do that for all the worlds? Frozen and tangled suffer for following the film plots too tightly.
Frozen was the world with the tightest leash iirc. They weren't allowed to do anything original with the main characters since it's a huge IP for Disney now, and getting it in at all was a struggle.

Anyway, the Pixar worlds were fabulous (along with Tangled, Hercules and Pirates). Pirates and Hercules in particular felt almost like the devs were free to do whatever, even though the former sticks to the plot of the movie.