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Nov 4, 2018
486
EDIT: The title is not meant to be taken literally. I'm not saying I think KH is stupid because of it's focus, I'm saying KH is perceived as stupid because of it's focus. The title was written under the assumption that the majority of people think KH is stupid because of the writing and aren't aware KH focuses on emotional story telling, thus why the writing can get very convoluted and silly.

After marathoning the entire series, except 3, these past few weeks I've come to understand why people like Kingdom Hearts so much.

At first glance the series is just really a collection of generic JRPG OCs going through Disney worlds with a connecting plot of friendship is power, which for most series is enough to spell disaster because of how uninteresting that kind of plot is, especially with how boring, on paper, the main character of the series is. Sora is almost the definition of a Gary Stu. Everyone he meets likes him, aside from the villains obviously, nearly everyone in the cast praises him for how special he is, and he has barely any flaws.

So if the writing is generic and the main character is practically a fanfic tier self-insert character, why do I fucking love these games? I don't consider myself a massive Disney fan. I like their movies enough but if Kingdom Hearts' appeal was entirely based on the fact it features Disney characters I doubt I'd like the series very much.

Where I believe Kingdom Hearts' succeeds is how it displays emotion with its cast of characters, and it is nowhere more apparent than how characters deal with loss.

Death and loss isn't usually a permanent thing in this series, but the feelings caused by it seem real. For example,
358/2 Days focuses on developing a group of three friends, two of which are particularly socially inept including the main character. They do mundane work every day, but the thing they look forward to at the end of each day is watching the sunset and eating ice cream together. The group eventually falls apart because of tensions caused by one of the members. At the end the main character of the group is forced to kill his friend and laments this loss by asking who will have ice cream with him. While the line is stupid out of context, it's a tragic scene of someone losing a friend and expressing their grief of losing what they enjoyed to do together.

Moments like these cause what I feel to be earned happiness. Most of the time I believe it's cheesy to make a character succeed just to have a happy ending, however Kingdom Hearts makes these characters earn their happy endings.

Instead of going from loss and then immediately redemption, Kingdom Hearts goes from loss, to grief, to reflection, and then to redemption. It allows characters to feel what they have lost before they can try and save it.

I kept mentioning earlier that Sora is almost a Gary Stu and without how the narrative has been told, he might as well fully be one in my eyes. What keeps Sora from being a Gary Stu is that, while he does ultimately fix things, he also has to work in order to fix things. Sora doesn't just show up in a situation and automatically fix everything. He learns about the situation and people around him and offers to help them, which makes him just a genuinely likeable person. He's also not immune to failing and showing flaws.
In the first game, he loses the keyblade and has to depend on Beast because he believes he only needs the Keyblade to be strong. In Chain of Memories he gets too caught up in trying to rescue someone that he begins to treat his friends like trash. In Dream Drop Distance he fails to become a Keyblade Master because he focuses too much on trying to stop Xehanort and not the bigger things at stake and falls into Organization 13's trap.

In summary, Kingdom Hearts should be fanfic tier garbage with how everything is written. But what keeps it from being a stupid Japanese action game with Disney characters is the genuine emotion it creates through its cast of characters.
 
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PurgeVIII

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
565
United States
What I always tell people who trash on the KH story is that its strength lies in the characters and their connections/emotions, not so much the plot itself.
 

kst1991

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6
I think the reason why people love Kingdom Hearts is Yoko Shinomura. She is the one who make the story looks better than what it really is. That's all.

I love KH, one of my favourite videogames franchise, but that is what I think.
 

J-Wood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,867
Yeah I'm confused why the title of this thread says the plot is stupid because of earned happiness but then the post says it's great because of earned happiness

Which I agree with the OP for the most part, but I'm still confused on the thread title
 
OP
OP
Twenty5Thousand
Nov 4, 2018
486
So it... isn't stupid then?
It is stupid. REALLY stupid, but not in the bad kind of way.

The series' main weapon is a sword shaped like a key that has the power to unlock anything. You've got Mickey Mouse wearing a black coat and wanting to avenge a, presumed, dead Goofy. You've got characters saying likes like "Is it even safe to go inside Riku?" and "I'm already half-Xehanort". You've got a team of baddies that are special because their names are anagrams of their original names with an X added. You've got a character who can track Sora because he's got an X on his clothes. For nearly every game that have to come up with some new way of going through worlds because the path used in an older game no longer works because of unforeseen plot reasons.

And finally, everyone in the fucking series seems to like sea salt ice cream, which from my experience tastes awful.

Also, the title is more of a response to the sentiment that Kingdom Hearts is stupid. Basically:

"Man Kingdom Hearts is so stupid!"

"Well Kingdom Hearts is stupid because etc..."
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,126
I have the most fun with Kingdom Hearts when I'm with my hardcore KH fan friend and I take everything they say on the screen seriously.
 

AppleKid

Member
Feb 21, 2018
2,607
Funny you would mention that ice cream line, as that was the first thing that came to my mind as an example of the series trying too hard to evoke emotion. I felt far more sadness and longing from Roxas and his story throughout the KH2 prologue than any aspect of 358/2
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,022
Not many moments in gaming like Sora fighting Roxas while his theme song plays in the background, reminding you of his sad life.
 

scare_crow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,330


So, I had never seen this ice cream scene before, but... that is an example "connection and emotion?" Woof.
 

Ravenwraith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,388
Kingdom Hearts presents overly complex and deeply layered laws of the universe which makes it come off as confusing to many, but the characters break those laws over their knee at every opportunity just by caring about their friends that much. It's actually really simple if you think about it that.

Nothing can stop you from doing what needs to be done if it's for someone you care about.

It's a powerful message emphasized by top notch presentation. Even through hours of stiff cutscenes and wonky dialogue almost every emotional beat that needs to work is given careful attention so you feel the payoff despite everything. These are all ultimately relatable scenarios about friends being torn apart by the powers that be, and..well, I think a lot of us know a thing or two about that.

As far as video games go there are far worse things you can preach. I'm very comfortable with this series being as popular as it is.
 
OP
OP
Twenty5Thousand
Nov 4, 2018
486


So, I had never seen this ice cream scene before, but... that is an example "connection and emotion?" Woof.

Hence the statement that, out of context, that moment is incredibly stupid. Even the cutscene compilation in 1.5 Remix doesn't present the full emotion behind this scene because you haven't experienced first hand how mundane Roxas' daily life is and how rewarding those moments with his friends eating ice cream together actually are.

It really sucks that 358 Days/2 wasn't fully remastered.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,880
Personally what I think Kingdom Hearts struggles the most with is that it assumes too much of the audience's investment.

For example, I don't give a shit about Roxas. He sucks. But with how much he's talked up in KH3's story (at least as far as I've played), I have no capacity to care whatsoever.
 

scare_crow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,330
Hence the statement that, out of context, that moment is incredibly stupid. Even the cutscene compilation in 1.5 Remix doesn't present the full emotion behind this scene because you haven't experienced first hand how mundane Roxas' daily life is and how rewarding those moments with his friends eating ice cream together actually are.

It really sucks that 358 Days/2 wasn't fully remastered.
Fair enough. Even with all of that, I can't really imagine that scene coming off as anything but incredibly melodramatic and silly. But different strokes!
 

Cryxok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
433
México
Personally what I think Kingdom Hearts struggles the most with is that it assumes too much of the audience's investment.

For example, I don't give a shit about Roxas. He sucks. But with how much he's talked up in KH3's story (at least as far as I've played), I have no capacity to care whatsoever.

You'd be surprised how many people care for Roxas. Personally, I care more for him than Sora himself and know many others that do the same. KH has a very large cast and, inevitably, each character is gonna be at least someone's favorite.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,032
Yeah, I consistently will agree that the plot can be convoluted as heck, but the characterization and some of the arcs these characters go on are really compelling. The game's main theme is clearly on friendships and relationships with others; how we weather loss, pain, betrayal, and deal with our feelings for people we care about when life tosses a million different obstacles at it. In that sense, few games are able to do what Kingdom Hearts does, regardless of the plot complexity. I think a big part of getting people to be fans of a story is to make something they can feel invested in; something to root for, and the persisting relationships of the series definitely constitute that.
 

ReginaldXIV

It's Pronounced "Aerith"
Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,903
Minnesota
Personally what I think Kingdom Hearts struggles the most with is that it assumes too much of the audience's investment.

For example, I don't give a shit about Roxas. He sucks. But with how much he's talked up in KH3's story (at least as far as I've played), I have no capacity to care whatsoever.

Roxas, Axel and Xion are like the emotional core of the whole franchise.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
That's what you're choosing from a smorgasbord of reasons why KH is stupid? Not the villain that has 4 different versions of himself, not the time traveling, not the ice cream scene, not the multiple dopplegangers everyone seems to have, not the fact that KH3 is actually KH11, not the fact that the series originally demanded you to own a PS2 GBA DS PSP 3DS if you wanted to keep up with its bonkers story, not the fact that the names use fractions that ppl to this day don't know how to pronounce (three hundred fifty eight divided by two days? Three five eight over two days? Hint: both are wrong) and Roman numerals with decimals in its name (KH II.8 Final Chapter Prologue), or anything else because I could go on.

No you chose "happiness is earned" as the reason KH is stupid. Let me be clear I bought KH3 day one and I'm enjoying it but God is this series stupid as shit!
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Like, it's heart is in the right place, but it suffers because it takes main characters who are written to work best dealing with simple, big emotions and puts them against complicated plans involving rules of the universe that they can't relate to or even understand so all they can do when they're around that stuff with how they're written is be confused/overwhelmed and fight. KH1 had the right idea keeping the plot very simple and broad strokes to facilitate running on simple, big emotions.
Roxas, Axel and Xion are like the emotional core of the whole franchise.
Geez, where does the actual main character fit in here?
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,863
OP, I dont think its focus on earned happiness is the issue persay, just that the writing/gameplay fails to make it feel earned.

Like with the KH1 example with Sora losing the keyblade in hollow bastion, that section where you are forced to run through it with just beast and little bit of magic honestly really reinforced the my friends are my power bit that sora does to get they keyblade back.

There hasnt really been many scenes like that that has been simple in its execution that pays off. It even ges worse the further you go, because plot twists keep flying in one after another.

Roxas'
big return in KH3 should have bee awesome but because of the litteral bullcrap hatpull to justify his return it falls flat imo.

EDIT:lol you are arguing for its emotional strength and I'm arguing against. I gotta stop speed reading and posting at work.
 
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OP
OP
Twenty5Thousand
Nov 4, 2018
486
So it... isn't stupid then?
Yeah I'm confused why the title of this thread says the plot is stupid because of earned happiness but then the post says it's great because of earned happiness

Which I agree with the OP for the most part, but I'm still confused on the thread title
Interesting OP sabotaged by a terrible thread title.
That's what you're choosing from a smorgasbord of reasons why KH is stupid? Not the villain that has 4 different versions of himself, not the time traveling, not the ice cream scene, not the multiple dopplegangers everyone seems to have, not the fact that KH3 is actually KH11, not the fact that the series originally demanded you to own a PS2 GBA DS PSP 3DS if you wanted to keep up with its bonkers story, not the fact that the names use fractions that ppl to this day don't know how to pronounce (three hundred fifty eight divided by two days? Three five eight over two days? Hint: both are wrong) and Roman numerals with decimals in its name (KH II.8 Final Chapter Prologue), or anything else because I could go on.

No you chose "happiness is earned" as the reason KH is stupid. Let me be clear I bought KH3 day one and I'm enjoying it but God is this series stupid as shit!
I don't get the title

Note to self, among other things, improve title naming.
 

Takatomon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
236
I'm not too fond of that ice cream scene in english, it feels a bit different.
In the japanese version he says something like "let's have ice cream together again, the three of us", in a desperate/hopeful tone instead of "who else will I have ice cream with?"
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Kingdom Hearts has a stupid story and horrible horrible writing, but you get invested into it because of the music and cause you can't help it when it's such a heavy focus in the games; games the fans love, you know.

Aside from that, you touched in an interesting point OP, coming from a series with such nonsense and generic tropes featured constantly, there's so many tragic endings in it. I haven't finished KH3, but throughout the games, characters have been killed and erased from everyone's memories, vanished to dark realms for years, or taken control of their bodies and wills for a decade. I definitely see what you are trying to say with earned happiness.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,801
Sora has no flaws? He's incredibly stupid, quick to anger, hugely emotionally vulnerable, and becomes a complete wreck whenever his friends get hurt.

Hell, KH3 goes out of its way to illustrate Sora's flaws.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,761
Yeah the connections between the characters is why people care. The overarching plot is interesting but not really where the emotional investment lies.

Like look how KH fans lost their collective shit when the E3 trailer from 2018 revealed Aqua had fallen to the Darkness. Going into playing KH3 the question on my mind wasn't "Does Xehanort get defeated?!" It was more of does the BBS and 358/2 trios get their reunions?
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Sora has no flaws? He's incredibly stupid, quick to anger, hugely emotionally vulnerable, and becomes a complete wreck whenever his friends get hurt.

Hell, KH3 goes out of its way to illustrate Sora's flaws.

Yeah, Sora breaks down hard when his friends get taken out.

He really can't deal with loneliness.

I kinda hope KH4 deals with Sora managing to deal with his loneliness.

if Kingdom Hearts was allowed to make Sora much older, it'd be interesting to see him come back as an adult and see that everyone's changed and moved on with their lives.

Like an Edmund Dantes-like figure sans the revenge.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
It's kinda the difference between thinking the first few hours of KH2 playing as Roxas being stupid bullshit that keeps you from playing as Sora, or being the most emotional scene of the game, showing a character fighting his best friend over a lie he's been tricked into believing.
 

overcast

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,482
I feel as though the awful writing keeps any of the emotion from feeling genuine. There isn't any moral ambiguity, it honestly feels like naive emotional writing at its worst.

I love playing these games but never feel anything through the cutscenes. Typically the music works in getting some reaction to me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,110
Personally what I think Kingdom Hearts struggles the most with is that it assumes too much of the audience's investment.

For example, I don't give a shit about Roxas. He sucks. But with how much he's talked up in KH3's story (at least as far as I've played), I have no capacity to care whatsoever.

I loved KH3, but I am 100% invested in all the BS, I feel like it's such a weird game to recommend because I assume people that aren't invested are just "wtf is even going on" or "I don't care".

It's such a proud sequel as well, I thought they would over-explain everything and pull back, but no, KH3 gives zero shits and actually went all in for the fans that have played every single game and care deeply for every single character, and for that, I commend it.

One of the best scenes of the WHOLE game, the 300 keyblades part, doesn't even make sense if you don't know about the mobile game, haha.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
it can be both. there are a lot of heartfelt emotional moments and there are also moments where the main character tells mickey mouse that riku has bugs in him
 

Stuart Gipp

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,181
Cambridge, England
The ice cream line at the end of 358/2 is utterly tragic not just because of it being such a basic point of reference, but because Roxas' understanding of his own pain is so limited that it's the only way he can express his feelings towards Xion.

It's deeply moving. I'm not weird. I swear.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,195
KH has shit writing. A shit story. And, simplistic characters. Kairi is also useless for much of the series.

Yes, I'm still playing through KH3.

The only game that managed to balance everything well was KH1. After that the series went extremely off the rails. Yes, its core strength is characters and friendship and sea salt ice cream. But, it sabotages itself at every opportunity with its shit writing and plot.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
Kingdom Hearts has worse writing than freaking Fairy Tail and I still love the games.
 

KratosEnergyDrink

Using an alt account to circumvent a ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
You can try to put "emotion" in characters as much as you will, put without a proper story and believable characters it's meaningless.

The death scene in the video is not emotional, it only tries to be emotional with hilarious sad music and endless conversation before the character finally dies. But it lacks depth and real emotions. It's just by the book writing of a emotional scene, especially for JRPGs.

Such emotion trigger scenes work for many people not because they are well written but because some people always projecting the scene on themselves. "I would be so sad too when a friend dies", and they get emotional, even so the story is ridiculous and the characters bland.
 

The Emperor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
Personally what I think Kingdom Hearts struggles the most with is that it assumes too much of the audience's investment.

For example, I don't give a shit about Roxas. He sucks. But with how much he's talked up in KH3's story (at least as far as I've played), I have no capacity to care whatsoever.
I feel this way about Kairi. LOL

I actually care a lot about all the other characters
 

Mister X

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,081
KH writers tried to make a good, consistent story but they failed miserably, concluding most people don't care about the story anymore.