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Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Goku as a kid seems like a kind of normal rural naive kid, like the dumb things he does you get it why, he's a kid that lived alone with his grandpa in the woods, so there's a logical explanation, and his behaviour is comprehensible, in no way i would say kid goku was a dumb kid, he was a much more logical character, in lots of stuff he was even smart during the og dragonball, and he had a more human side, he looked like a kid, like he really loved his grandpa and care about friends, talk, laughs, hang out etc.

If we compare to addult goku that's a battle junkie, dumb in most stuff except battle, and he's irresponsible with only training and battle on his mind. And is insensible to say to his family and friends "gonna train in heaven for 7 years see ya", and not even start about how he made some very dangerous decisions like letting enemies alive so he could battle them later and stuff.

I think akira in dbz created an archetype for goku, that got stick with what goku is "dumb obsessed with fighting", and that what goku has become.

I know people will say its a battle manga, but there's still character development in this type of manga.

b4627ae5bc4fb1f0bb9f43b61699a3711ae96bab_hq.jpg
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Confirmed in this thread poll

www.resetera.com

What's the best version of Goku?

While I haven't ever read, watched, or played any meaningful amount of DB media, I have been exposed to myriad Gokus. That Dragon Ball FighterZ game is full of Gokus. I happened to come across this DeviantArt account, and it got me thinking about which one is the best. To those familiar with...
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,962
You mean kid Goku is better than 'I'm gonna give a senzu bean to Cell so my terrified 10 year old son can fight him properly even though he's a pacifist' Goku? Well, yeah.


Goku is a goddamn idiot, a terrible father and his main goal in life is to fight other people which can directly lead to casualties (for example Trunks being killed by Cell)
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,770
You mean kid Goku is better than 'I'm gonna give a senzu bean to Cell so my terrified 10 year old son can fight him properly even though he's a pacifist' Goku? Well, yeah.


Goku is a goddamn idiot, a terrible father and his main goal in life is to fight other people which can directly lead to casualties (for example Trunks being killed by Cell)
How is Trunks being killed by Cell goku's fault? Goku saved the earth by removing the exploding Cell, blame Gohan for toying with him out of arrogance.

EDIT: Also yes, you are correct OP.
 

Otakunofuji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,138
Yes. I'm re-watching Dragon Ball right now and he's just such a likeable goofball. Everything about Dragon Ball is better than the rest of the franchise.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,962
How is Trunks being killed by Cell goku's fault? Goku saved the earth by removing the exploding Cell, blame Gohan for toying with him out of arrogance.
Gohan could've easily defeat him had Goku not give him a senzu bean. If you ask me, the need for a "fair fight" between your 10 year old son and an evil monster when literally the world is at stake is pretty fucking insane.
I believe Goku was even able to defeat Cell by himself, but he just wanted Gohan to be the one to beat him.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,770
Gohan could've easily defeat him had Goku not give him a senzu bean. I believe Goku was even able to defeat Cell by himself, but he just wanted the Gohan to be the one to beat him.
Gohan easily beat him after Goku gave Cell a Senzu though, after transforming to SSJ2.

Trunks died after Gohan toyed with Cell, due to which he blew himself up and came back full power.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
I think akira in dbz created an archetype for goku, that got stick with what goku is "dumb obsessed with fighting", and that what goku has become.
Goku was kinda always like this, but IIRC as a kid he was interacting with average folks to a larger degree so there was a lot more dynamic in terms of his relationships. He would run up to a town and demand they bring out their strongest dude so Goku could fight him. In Z he's largely with his fighting bros going up against huge, non-human threats and normal people show up to basically show how strong everyone has become.

I know people will say its a battle manga, but there's still character development in this type of manga.
I actually saw a video once that pretty neatly posited that Goku has a "flat" character arc, in which he doesn't develop as much as his being 100% himself causes everyone around him to develop as characters. His purity of spirit just does something to people. I think it's apt and also much more palpable in DB because, again, he's interacting with so many different people of all stripes who have to come to terms with both his power and innocence. In Z it mostly only affects, like, his nemeses like Vegeta and Buu. It does awesome stuff - Vegeta's arc is top notch - but it doesn't really do it for me on the whole.
 

Gwarm

Member
Nov 13, 2017
2,157
Young adult Goku was great too. The US dub changed his personality once he got to Namek.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
It's clear Toriyama only thought about the whole "obsessed with fighting" part of Goku by the 23rd Budokai right before he went ahead with the alien storyline. That's the first time you get him thinking about sparing someone in order to have a chance to fight against them again (even if he had other excuses that he gave the characters and kept that to himself, unlike later when he outright said it). Previously he just killed villains.
 

hjort

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,096
Agreed. I love Dragon Ball when it's the lighthearted adventure manga. I don't love it when it's the neverending stream of drawn-out fights manga.
 

Taco_Human

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,237
MA
OG DB is the best. Fun to rewatch and see him overcome everything getting stronger. Z is still dope, but you gotta be in the mood for it.
 

henhowc

Member
Oct 26, 2017
33,539
Los Angeles, CA
Goku has always been an idiot. At least when he was younger you could just wave it away as being due to his age. Probably what makes it doubly infuriating for Vegeta. Goku was both beneath him in class and intelligence. lol
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
It's clear Toriyama only thought about the whole "obsessed with fighting" part of Goku by the 23rd Budokai right before he went ahead with the alien storyline. That's the first time you get him thinking about sparing someone in order to have a chance to fight against them again (even if he had other excuses that he gave the characters and kept that to himself, unlike later when he outright said it). Previously he just killed villains.
Unless I was watching a weird sub, I distinctly remember Goku spending a lot of time in Dragonball looking for the strongest people to fight. Literally went town to town looking for them.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,428
Florida
Yeah and Dragonball was better than DBZ. This is just a fact.

Honestly, I've settled on Dragon Ball all the way up to the end of the Freeza arc was good shit. I know people love Cell and the Androids, but that arc was a mess with how Toriyama kept changing things on a whim. And then that issue only got exacerbated with the Buu arc.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
Unless I was watching a weird sub, I distinctly remember Goku spending a lot of time in Dragonball looking for the strongest people to fight. Literally went town to town looking for them.
That didn't happen in the manga, although I do remember the anime added two segments of episodes focused on his "training trips", so it might be from there. I can barely remember those episodes though. Still, he always liked fighting, but that's different from the characterization he receives later when Toriyama decided it was a racial trait rather than just standard enjoyment of battles. Like I said, before the 23rd Budokai, he never spared someone while thinking about how it's because he wanted to face them again in the future like he does to Piccolo and Vegeta.
 

Kikujiro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
906
Dragon Ball was such a joy to read (used to re-read it every year when I was a kid), so much fun and humor, also the sad parts were legit sobbing (Goku meeting his grandpa, his friendship with that Frankenstein dude, Crilin's death), every arc was a surprise, the battles were also more clever and inventive than DBZ.
Toriyama's creativity was at its highest during OG Dragon Ball run, you could tell he was having a blast writing the manga and there are a lot of similarities with his previous amazing work Dr. Slump.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,313
There's some good ideas to Adult Goku, him being a well meaning but misguided father isn't bad until he leaves his family for seven years, misses the birth of his second child, and never talks to them until he somehow overhears Gohan is joining a tournament.

But the big problem is that Goku just wasn't fit to be the main character anymore after the Piccolo fights. He ends up fading into the background because Toriyama didn't know what to do with him anymore but still showing up to fight the final threat Toriyama would also write himself into a corner so often.

Anyway Z is still better than classic DB because it has better characters than Kid Goku, better stories, and less Roshi.
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
The majority of people in the West became fans because of DBZ, but OG Dragon Ball is better.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
It's literally the same character, the only difference is the situations they are both in... Kid Goku wasn't fighting for literally the fate of the entire world with every fight, and thus the scale could be smaller and take itself less seriously.

It's really hard to walk back "The whole universe is at stake!" and keep things tense while keeping Goku as the lead character.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,362
The Stussining
You know what I mean.
Tonally it's a complete different thing. Even the King Piccolo Saga and Saiyan Saga feel completely different.
I actually disagree to an extent. Evil King Piccolo fits in more with the Saiyan saga then it does with the other kid Goku stuff. It's the arc I'd point to if I had to say when the tonal pivot started.
 

Hero Prinny

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,192
I dont think you'd find anyone who disagrees as far as being a better character. The rest is debatable
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
Also, probably important to note that DB started as a gag manga. Definitely a couple points in there (Tao Pai Pai and one of the Piccolo encounters, specifically) where the tonal shift toward something more action-oriented was obvious.

But the big problem is that Goku just wasn't fit to be the main character anymore after the Piccolo fights. He ends up fading into the background because Toriyama didn't know what to do with him anymore but still showing up to fight the final threat Toriyama would also write himself into a corner so often.
I was gonna touch on this in my first post but at the time I didn't know how to word it in a way that couldn't also technically apply to Dragonball. I'd give it thru Frieza saga tho.

I said that in Dragonball, at least from what I remember, Goku spends more time interacting with average folks in meaningful ways, helping villages, etc. whereas in Z those kinds of people generally are more on the sidelines, expressing awe at the fighters' strength or being fodder for big bads or just being a reference to how crazy the power levels are scaling. At that point, someone like Goku works better for me when he ceases to have so much screen time and only shows up when it's a big deal for him to. Honestly, that might have compelled me to commit to watching Super, because Goku being largely absent after any of his deaths in Z then having Super pivot back to him fucking around with gods would have been a flex.

Anyway, here's some kid Goku being boss
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