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Karl Jobst exposes evidence of potential fraud and deception in Retro VG Market with recent insane retro games auctions (eg. 2M$ SMB copy)
- Thread starter Lebon30
- Start date
- News Retro Video/Streaming
If you don't get it, you just don't get it. I'm the same haha. I open all my videogames and play them, then sell them if I don't want them. I 'collect' Vita games at the moment (but only ones I want to play) and have opened some stuff that has seriously tanked the value... but I don't care. I like the carts!
On topic, this was fascinating, and horrifying.
Yeah, this is reminding me A LOT of the Beanie Baby speculative bubble in the 90s, with a few entities working in tandem to inflate values in a circuitous manner.
The instances of extremely high auction values on exhibit here are far more sketchy. This is some great investigative reporting.
The instances of extremely high auction values on exhibit here are far more sketchy. This is some great investigative reporting.
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Lol yep. Back in the early 2000s I got on an eBay kick bidding on NES and SNES listings, but I only wanted the ones with instruction manuals included.
I used to visit Nintendo Age frequently when I was avidly collecting in the early to mid 00's. It was a great resource. Such a shame to see it get demolished like that.
I also dont really get the fascination with sealed games. The whole point of me buying games is to play them. That said, back when I was after Mega Man 5 and 6 for the NES, the copies I were finding were mainly beat up, so I did end up buying sealed copies, then opening them (which was a bizarrely satisfying feeling!)
Then again, the price of a sealed MM5/6 back in the day was a fraction of what it is today.
I'm glad you mentioned this because I feel that it's loss tended to get overlooked when people discussed the Nintendoage sale. That database was over a decade of freely available community-compiled NES/SNES rarity, variant, & box content information. A really valuable resource that was gone in an instant.
To be fair there are some gh varients out there that are actually rarer that the standard release. First example that comes to mind is yoshi's story player's choice is way harder to find than the standard release.I was going to joke about grading a Great Hits variant...WTF are people doing?
$298.75
That wouldn't be the case for this extremely common game that people don't care about, but it does happen.
I've been somewhat following the course of all this stuff since it started... only somewhat because it's so repellent... in no small part because my most frequented forum was Nintendo Age (despite not being a collector anymore). It was suddenly eaten by some comic grading outfit, and these ridiculous auctions started right around the same time. Knowing what has happened with other collectible markets in the past made the broad strokes of what was going on obvious from the beginning, even without any investigation. The press on Heritage and Wata has been absolutely pathetic and irresponsible the last couple years. Really interested in watching the video as soon as I'm able. Glad someone has finally put together all the scummy details.
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A lot of this stuff, was known in the hardcore collector circles. Still a few things I wasn't aware of myself, like the previous market manipulation from a lot of the same players, but it's not surprising. Reserved Investments on YouTube has also been warning people for sometime that there is a lot of serious market manipulation going on in Retro games and that people should be cautious.
Will be interesting to see how the market reacts over the next few months.
There are some versions where the Greatest Hits version would be more desirable. For example, the Silent Hill 2 Greatest Hits version includes the bonus mode from the xbox version that lets you play as MariaI was going to joke about grading a Great Hits variant...WTF are people doing?
$298.75
Devil May Cry 3's GH also added a ton of new content and fixed the difficulty settings that were tampered with for Western audiences in vanilla.
https://kotaku.com/youtuber-accuses-million-dollar-retro-game-sales-of-bei-1847557296
Kotaku is reporting on this now. Seems like it's starting to make waves.
Kotaku is reporting on this now. Seems like it's starting to make waves.
but.. none of that matters since the game will never to taken out of the slab to be played anyway? Wouldn't collectors want a "cleaner" box art?
I sort of understand permanently slabbing valuable antique comics/cards that are so old they could be damaged from simply being handled. But modern/PS2 era dvd boxes? of common games? I just don't get any of this at all.
The thing I don't like about all this grading is that says nothing about the actual condition of the cart or disc inside the case or box. I've opened a brand new disc-based game only to have some of the internal portion broken and the disc's surface scratched as a result. The external case was visibly perfect and sealed.
I guess if these collectors have no interest in opening or playing the game, it won't matter. What is the end game, really? Will no one play these games anymore?
I guess if these collectors have no interest in opening or playing the game, it won't matter. What is the end game, really? Will no one play these games anymore?
This is something that has been discussed amongst collectors as well. I've heard of instances where mint boxes resulted in destroyed manuals. I feel like I've heard instances where there was mold inside as well, but these are second hand stories that I can't confirm, but make sense.
I have no doubt there are sealed & graded cartridge games that are dead due to leaking internal batteries.
Yeah, the sealed games inside a sealed case is nonsense. If anything, the games that should be the most valuable are those that are pristine that you can still take out and play, although doing so means fingerprints and that means less pristine.
One thing I've seen some folks saying about all this is that "These games aren't rare!" but many truly are, especially in sealed form, but I wouldn't say very many are rare enough to be sold for anything approaching a million bucks, shady characters and likely illegal price pumping aside.
The bottom line if you're buying any retro games these days is to look specifically at sold listings on Ebay and gauge what a game is worth to you and make your determination on what to spend based on that.
One thing I've seen some folks saying about all this is that "These games aren't rare!" but many truly are, especially in sealed form, but I wouldn't say very many are rare enough to be sold for anything approaching a million bucks, shady characters and likely illegal price pumping aside.
The bottom line if you're buying any retro games these days is to look specifically at sold listings on Ebay and gauge what a game is worth to you and make your determination on what to spend based on that.
Yep. I've opened a few sealed 3DO games from the mid-90s where they must have been kept in damp conditions for a time. The games were fine but the manuals were musty smelling and had rusty staples.
I don't have a problem with grading in theory. The problem, as I see it, is the lack of transparency and the control of everything from information (buying Game Value Now and Nintendo Age and taking it offline) to grading service (WATA) to Auction Houses to collusion among some of the top sellers which is straight market manipulation.
VGA was grading games for years without this type of manipulation.
I once sold an out of print Anime Blu Ray box set on eBay once that was sealed, when the buyer opened it the inside was apparently terrible. Since I'd imported it from overseas 2-3 years earlier there was nothing I could do I'm regards to getting a replacement etc.
Yeah I've mused on that as well. I've had a couple instances where I opened a sealed game and the disc/cart inside was broken or dead for whatever reason. Though I guess it's beside the point when what's really being graded is the box, and these games are never intended to be opened.
Were those clowns really taking into account the quality of the shrink wrap?
Shrink wrap is not part of the product.
Shrink wrap is not part of the product.
I imagine some cartridges with batteries are now dead by rot inside their sealed 9.8 graded slab
Well, not like you can use those bonuses if it's sealed and in those shitty plastic boxes.
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Yeah that's what I'm thinking with games that have battery-backed memory on the cartridge like the original Zelda.
I was just watching this. Pretty whack...
Gotta feel bad for actual passionate small time collectors...
Gotta feel bad for actual passionate small time collectors...
That's why it works better for trading cards. I think even comic books they consider the condition of the pages. No way they should be grading a game based on covers alone. A sealed vinyl record is also very risky. What it tells me is people are collecting for an asset, not because they enjoy the format.
NintendoLife wrote an article and got a response from Wata.
Statement from Wata Games:
Wata Games is the trusted leader in collectible video game grading and we're honored to play a key role in this booming industry that we are incredibly passionate about. We're humbled by the support of our thousands of customers who trust us to provide accurate and transparent grading. The claims in this video are completely baseless and defamatory and it is unfortunate that Mr. Jobst did not contact us to give us the opportunity to correct him.
www.nintendolife.com
What a joke statement! This is your opportunity to correct the narrative not just sell your brand.
Statement from Wata Games:
Wata Games is the trusted leader in collectible video game grading and we're honored to play a key role in this booming industry that we are incredibly passionate about. We're humbled by the support of our thousands of customers who trust us to provide accurate and transparent grading. The claims in this video are completely baseless and defamatory and it is unfortunate that Mr. Jobst did not contact us to give us the opportunity to correct him.
Possible Retro Game Grading Inconsistencies Come To Light Following Fraud Allegations
Update: WATA responds with a statement
www.nintendolife.com
What a joke statement! This is your opportunity to correct the narrative not just sell your brand.
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Silent Hill 2 Greatest Hits on PS2 is an unlabeled Director's Cut with additional content.
I remember the first time I learned about Wata. They had a booth set up at Portland Retro Gaming Expo in 2017 or 2108. I attend that expo every year and I had never seen them before, yet they had some of the rarest and most expensive games I had ever seen at the expo on display and graded. NWCs, sealed Stadium Events, and things like that. I started asking the employees at the booth about the games themselves and they knew close to nothing about the historical significance of any of the games. Wata felt extremely out of place and at the event. You immediately got the vibe that Wata was approaching the retro gaming hobby from a very weird place.
I really hope people stop supporting Wata. If collecting sealed games is your thing, that's great, but they don't require a Wata or VGA tombstone slab. Don't give your money to these greedy scammers. It hurts everyone in the hobby in the end.
I really hope people stop supporting Wata. If collecting sealed games is your thing, that's great, but they don't require a Wata or VGA tombstone slab. Don't give your money to these greedy scammers. It hurts everyone in the hobby in the end.
I hope there's enough receipts for some sort of legal proceeding. It's not 'defamation' when there's proof to back it.
Its a long article, and it just gets more dark and twisted the more I read... the whole thing is just unbelievable but at the same time, not that surprising. Fascinating to watch this all play out though.
Thank you for posting this. I watched it this morning. The number of conflicts of interest present is pretty staggering. The worst part is that even when the bubble bursts, Wata and Heritage Auctions and the people involved will be making money right until the end through auction and grading fees, nickel and diming the burning ship as it crashes into the ground. Just rigged from all angles, and they'll probably, at worst, get fined in the end for an amount that is small in the scheme of their total operation.
I watched one of the grading youtubers called GetTheGregGames featured in the video and their reaction to the expose video and I have to say it was pretty disappointing although probably reflecting the reality among those "investing" in these markets at the moment.
He basically said that most people who have had dealings with Wata currently won't be surprised by these revelations and probably suspected as such was going on all along. They also won't care since they continue to see it as an opportunity to make a lot of money.
He himself said he has a shipment prepared for Wata to send out later this week and intends to send it as planned.
He basically said that most people who have had dealings with Wata currently won't be surprised by these revelations and probably suspected as such was going on all along. They also won't care since they continue to see it as an opportunity to make a lot of money.
He himself said he has a shipment prepared for Wata to send out later this week and intends to send it as planned.
Watched this yesterday, and it explained a lot of things that I was wondering about lately, especially the N64 Mario selling for 1.5 mil and all these auctions being under one auction house.
Being into collecting retro systems, the whole thing caught my eye with the 100.000 NES Mario sale, and I was in total disbelief about the ultra-short time span it took for games getting multi-million prices. I can understand it perfectly now.
The video is eye-opening and a quality piece of investigative journalism, and the topic definitely needs more attention and exposure from media outlets (which I doubt will happen).
It's both frustrating and amusing seeing that you can (single-handedly) fabricate and manipulate a likely multi-billion market (bubble) from something that started as cheap passion projects, while also being the main benefactor.
And the most amusing thing is that guy did it two times (in two separate areas), and was even busted the first time.
Simply wild stuff.
Being into collecting retro systems, the whole thing caught my eye with the 100.000 NES Mario sale, and I was in total disbelief about the ultra-short time span it took for games getting multi-million prices. I can understand it perfectly now.
The video is eye-opening and a quality piece of investigative journalism, and the topic definitely needs more attention and exposure from media outlets (which I doubt will happen).
It's both frustrating and amusing seeing that you can (single-handedly) fabricate and manipulate a likely multi-billion market (bubble) from something that started as cheap passion projects, while also being the main benefactor.
And the most amusing thing is that guy did it two times (in two separate areas), and was even busted the first time.
Simply wild stuff.
Haha, I'm the same. I've bought a bunch of 'new' vita games recently just to rip the carts out and store them in my portable case.
I was going to joke about grading a Great Hits variant...WTF are people doing?
$298.75
80? What exactly can this sealed copy do to be 85, 90, 95 or 100???? God graded games are so f'n dumb.
For all the people asking about media coverage this story. I've done my part.
www.tomshw.it
La Stangata applicata al retrogame: storia di una truffa?
La Stangata, il film con Paul Newman, è diventato reale? Sembrerebbe proprio di sì, almeno nel campo dei retrogame e delle pazze cifre raggiunte.
www.tomshw.it
The number of press releases I got from Heritage Auctions in the run up to all of these crazy sales made me very, very suspicious. Watching the initial video was absolutely crazy, seeing that it was essentially the same crew moving on to a different heist with impunity