So, what does collusion mean? I apparently don't know what the definition is, because I would think clandestinely agreeing to cooperate with others to subvert the rules of a competition would be... well, collusion. But, it's not?
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Justice Department releases redacted Mueller report (See Threadmarks for Summaries)
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So, what does collusion mean? I apparently don't know what the definition is, because I would think clandestinely agreeing to cooperate with others to subvert the rules of a competition would be... well, collusion. But, it's not?
I'm sure this has already been posted, but I just flipped to a random page...
"The President's actions towards witnesses in the Special Counsel's investigation would qualify as obstructive if they had the natural tendency to prevent particular witnesses from testifying truthfully, or otherwise would have the probable effect of influencing, delaying, or preventing their testimony to law enforcement."
and then a few paragraphs down...
"The President's public statements during the Manafort trial, including during jury deliberations, also had the potential to influence the trial jury."
It's really feeling like it is a case of "He obstructed but we (SCO) aren't the ones to say so."
also, regarding the first quote I posted, Trump was just in the news for telling someone from Homeland Security to break the law and he'll pardon him. If he does that so publicly, do we really think he wasn't telling people privately to lie to the SCO?
"The President's actions towards witnesses in the Special Counsel's investigation would qualify as obstructive if they had the natural tendency to prevent particular witnesses from testifying truthfully, or otherwise would have the probable effect of influencing, delaying, or preventing their testimony to law enforcement."
and then a few paragraphs down...
"The President's public statements during the Manafort trial, including during jury deliberations, also had the potential to influence the trial jury."
It's really feeling like it is a case of "He obstructed but we (SCO) aren't the ones to say so."
also, regarding the first quote I posted, Trump was just in the news for telling someone from Homeland Security to break the law and he'll pardon him. If he does that so publicly, do we really think he wasn't telling people privately to lie to the SCO?
Not to diminish the midterms, but presidential elections are a whole different game.
Trump DID get a leg-up in 2016 from improper aid, including Cambridge Analytica. Not an instant win button but pretty damn close, arguably the single biggest reason why he won by knowing to campaign in states like Michigan.
Not saying that BLM was not an organic movement but I think I remember reading when the 13 Russians were indicted that they were in charge of one of the most prominent BLM pages.
Again, they didn't start the movement but they piggy backed on anything they could to help sow discord.
I also want to be very clear that I am not diminishing the movement at all. Just trying to show that their influence took advantage of anything and everything going on in heated political and social topics. I'm sure this extends to other movements as well.
I see impeachment at this point as a Constitutional obligation. I frankly saw it as such when Trump was named as Individual 1 in the Cohen conviction.
The Democrats can certainly preface it as such and say at the start that they initiate proceedings fully expecting the GOP Senate not to vote to remove, but that it's the right thing and it's an obligation and it's the best route to get facts in front of the public.
Most of the hardcore conservatives live in their own false reality. They don't care about what evidence is actually put in front of them, they only care about what Fox News tells them and what the GOP is publicly saying.
45 could get arrested and put behind bars today live on CNN. Fox could say that it is a doctored video and they would all believe it.
On topic: reading this report is fucking insane. Even with all of the redactions there is enough here that in a sane world would qualify for impeachment or SOMETHING.
Yeah the report literally says it would be unfair for them to make an assessment because it's DOJ policy that they can't indict. It's congress's job.
OP
OP
Don't worry - I'm sure he'll abide by the rules of our democracy just like he has for the past 3 years and graciously transfer power over to a Dem president.
Collision isn't a crime. Criminal conspiracy is and that requires a lot of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and knowledge of intent.
I don't think it's dementia in this instance, it's more so another rich white man getting the benefit of the doubt at every possible chance.
Fuck our legal system
This dude is a straight up mob boss.I'm fucking dying at this shit.
Pages 78 - 80.
It's extremely hard to tell at this point.
Whoops, just saw the edit, that's what I get for not refreshing.
Thank you for clarifying. It makes more sense when you add the above info to your other post.
CNN saying Jr not charged because it wasn't clear he knew he was breaking any laws. Does that ignorance of the law is now an acceptable excuse for everyone?
Already posted once on the first page but post it again :P
And off course not idots who do not know any better are put in jail EVERY DAY.
I didn't say it was a crime. Regardless, we've been told 'no collusion' and I see what appears to be collusion.
I've never been on the 'arrest Trump' train. I'm on the 'expose how big of a piece of garbage he is to damage him politically' train. Whether or not it's a crime means nothing to me because I know there can be no justice for a guy like him.
Again, this is why we need to have Mueller testify and answer this in public.
I imagine it's the fact that the charges would require establishing "intent", and Jr's lawyers could easily argue he was too stupid to know what he was doing, therefore there's no "intent".
It's super fucked up but establishing intent is extremely hard AFAIK
Constitutional obligation is one thing, realpolitick is another. Problem is, realpolitick is baked the fuck in to our existing system of government.
Institutions are there, like them or not.
Now, I do agree with you that getting the facts in front of the public would be a good thing, and impeachment is a probable fast track to do that, but I also expect the report to leak in full. Between now and then, it's also not too hard to connect some dots. From what I've read in the report you can pretty much insert "Donald Trump Jr.", "Jared Kushner", and "Roger Stone" in plenty of redactions. You know it. I know it. Most people know it. But knowing the truth doesn't mean shit to more voters than we think. They just want to ease all that 'economic anxiety (lol wink)'. That's what I think, anyway.
We have to keep going until we get iron clad, air tight evidence. A blind man could see how dirty Trump is. We just need it to be clear, no question, full on, smoking gun, red handed. And even then the alt-right is going to pull out the stops.
I'd love it if he wasn't in office anymore and in prison, but we can't put him there without that proof. Since we don't have that YET, voting is the best way to go.
Has every page viewable in browser, and link to PDF: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/read-the-mueller-report/
Direct link to PDF: https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.co...note/a8d336ef-e98d-4a08-987d-b4c154b22700.pdf
It's only an excuse if it's to believed you havr a mental handicap that subverts you to a visibke extent
Here's a write-up from the New Jersey Bar Association about the ignorance of the law concept:
https://njsbf.org/2018/04/23/ignorance-of-the-law-is-not-an-excuse/
https://njsbf.org/2018/04/23/ignorance-of-the-law-is-not-an-excuse/
Criminal intent is required in all instances of conspiracy. This isn't a Don Jr thing.
? He explains it very clearly,
"Taking into account the high burden to establish a culpable mental state in a campaign-finance prosecution and the difficulty in establishing the required valuation, the Office decided not to pursue criminal campaign-finance charges against Trump Jr. or other campaign officials for the events culminating in the June 9 meeting "
When laws require a culpable mental state, ignorance of said law can be a defense.
Thanks, but please don't start your comments off with a ?. It's super douchey.
SMH, no shit, black lives matters is real and important. That's not what I said or what anyone else is saying. What it means is that Russia is literally playing up that divide, including support of some BLM groups on FB, and it's literally in the report! And again, that's not an indictment that BLM's aims and goals aren't right or necessary, just a statement of reality and what happened.
They want to incite a cultural civil war in America, weaken the nation and get pressure off their own backs. And Trump got elected, so they pretty much were successful in what they've set out to do.
Those people already planned to say that long in advance of the report, regardless of what it said.
User Banned (2 days): antagonizing other members
Man I got dog piled and called a troll by a bunch of Russiagators yesterday for saying that at best we'd get some possible obstruction charges that'll be impossible to act on anyway, and that for sure the full report would be full of collusion and traitorous action. But here we are and what's the top headline on the Washington Post?....
"Report showed team struggled on obstruction issue."
Not even the WP will take a firm stance on obstruction, and no mention of collusion, treason, or 12 dimensional chess by Trump and team.
I thought about doing a victory lap and quote posting all the people who were so convinced this was going to be a revelation in Russia/Trump coordination, but who has the time? Y'all know who you are. And I'm sure people are already forming conspiracy theories to validate their convictions within any redactions.
"Report showed team struggled on obstruction issue."
Not even the WP will take a firm stance on obstruction, and no mention of collusion, treason, or 12 dimensional chess by Trump and team.
I thought about doing a victory lap and quote posting all the people who were so convinced this was going to be a revelation in Russia/Trump coordination, but who has the time? Y'all know who you are. And I'm sure people are already forming conspiracy theories to validate their convictions within any redactions.
Trump supporters don't know about these redactions.
I showed parts of the report to one just now and they said it was fake. I told them to look up the report themselves and they said they didn't need to because they watch Fox News.
You really should read the report. You demonstrate (again) you have no idea what's happening.
Remember your "no evidence" bullshit?