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"Just pick a top-tier"
- Thread starter Kalmakov
- Start date
Characters being noob crushers doesn't mean "tiers aren't real"
felt bad for a friend who kept picking kirbo in smash brudda 5
him getting rocked constantly by me with itty bitty link
and not understanding that the game was not melee
and missing inputs
made him think the game was very unfair and gave swordbois an unfair advantage
so i started trolling him as gorilla lord
then as megaman
now the game is balanced wrong in favor of punchers, projectiles, and sword guys
him getting rocked constantly by me with itty bitty link
and not understanding that the game was not melee
and missing inputs
made him think the game was very unfair and gave swordbois an unfair advantage
so i started trolling him as gorilla lord
then as megaman
now the game is balanced wrong in favor of punchers, projectiles, and sword guys
Fighting games these days are balanced enough that outside of a couple of exceptions like DBFZ, you can pick who you want and still be pretty competitive.
What matters to me most is that I enjoy playing the character. I'm not going to force myself to learn a character I don't like just because they're the best in the game.
I think picking a character you don't like just because they're the best character is an easy way to lose enjoyment in a fighting game and burn out quickly.
What matters to me most is that I enjoy playing the character. I'm not going to force myself to learn a character I don't like just because they're the best in the game.
I think picking a character you don't like just because they're the best character is an easy way to lose enjoyment in a fighting game and burn out quickly.
I'm not saying that tiers aren't real, certainly not enough to put quotation marks around. Some characters are very much better than others. I say as much in the post that the post you responded to selectively quoted: with Ganondorf in particular I can feel his weaknesses and they cause differences in my playstyle, and I have to be considerably better than my opponents in order to win at the level I currently play, because everyone knows that matchup
I did say that the way character balance in Smash works in particular, in the experience of me a person who mains a bottom 10 or bottom 5 character, means that you get a pretty big grace period before you need to worry about how high-tier your character is. Which isn't saying that tiers aren't real! It's just saying that a lot of people worry about characters as magic buttons to make them better players, when they're not, especially in a game like smash where the best characters are all hugely execution-heavy
Tiers absolutely matter, but vary depending of many things. The level of skill where a Top Tiers at the highest level of play can be absolute garbage in the hands of the beginner (Akuma in Tekken 7). On the contrary, some characters are noob killers due to easy spammable moves and crumble when the opponents know what they're doing (Katarina in Tekken 7). And you got some dumb stuff like Leroy combining both the ease of use and the brokeness.
It also vary depending on the gameplay, it the game is match up heavy or not, or if the universal options are strong enough to balance the tiers...
Incredibly complex stuff and due to the number of extremely diverse fighters, quite impossible to answer. You have to take it on a case to case basis. A Low Tiers Panda (not even for debate) won the Tekken World Tour finals last year for example.
It also vary depending on the gameplay, it the game is match up heavy or not, or if the universal options are strong enough to balance the tiers...
Incredibly complex stuff and due to the number of extremely diverse fighters, quite impossible to answer. You have to take it on a case to case basis. A Low Tiers Panda (not even for debate) won the Tekken World Tour finals last year for example.
Personally, I try to find a balance by going with characters I like that are also viable, making sure that at least one choice fits both criteria. I don't avoid top tiers, but I won't bother with them if I don't like any of them in that game either.
DBFZ has horrendous balance, leading to little choice but to resort to using meta teams/characters to be competitive. Clearly people tiring of the game this past ho-hum season, where Arc thought it would be a good idea not to issue any patches after it began for some reason, has been taking its toll as well. It went from being the main draw over at Fighting Tuesdays in Tokyo to having its streams cancelled because people quit showing up, having only 12 players competing in this final week for it while Soul Calibur VI and Tekken 7 have shown growth with 50+ and 60+ players at the same venue respectively.
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DBFZ has horrendous balance, leading to little choice but to resort to using meta teams/characters to be competitive. Clearly people tiring of the game this past ho-hum season, where Arc thought it would be a good idea not to issue any patches after it began for some reason, has been taking its toll as well. It went from being the main draw over at Fighting Tuesdays in Tokyo to having its streams cancelled because people quit showing up, having only 12 players competing in this final week for it while Soul Calibur VI and Tekken 7 have shown growth with 50+ and 60+ players at the same venue respectively.
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how do people still not know how tier lists work in the year of our lord 2020
A nicely balanced game makes tiers completely irrelevant for everyone below a high level of play, a poorly balanced game can make tiers pretty relevant at most levels of play (even if they aren't completely insurmountable).
Kinda, but developers also make some characters more technical and difficult to play than others, so even then, there might be an entirely different tier list for lower skill levels where characters with a more straightforwrd gameplan that get easier wins against unexperienced players, but might be lacking at higher levels of play, might be rated higher and vice versa ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
How tier list works is highly dependent on the game and the character it self rather than some across the board hot take of "it's only viable for high level competitive play".
Characters like Menat, Zato, etc... position in a tier list is irrelevant to 99% of players, yes. But, stuff like Leroy, MvC3 Dark Phonex, etc... Are relevant game breaking characters in any level of play past button mashing. The same for games too, Xrd will favor the person better at using the game's mechanics more so than character tier list, meanwhile with simpler games like SFV, generally abusive top tier tactics that work for top level play can be seen even in low level ranked play. Something like a throw loop in SFV is as effective at an EVO final as it is in a gold ranked match and the characters that are top because of it will be felt as much in low level play as they would at the top.
SFV trimmed a lot of that shit throughout the years, and top tiers now are(mostly) dependent on skills you wont find until top level play, and even there it's very well balanced. But things like "tiers only affect top level of play" as a blanket statement has no place in the age of easy simplified fighters.
Characters like Menat, Zato, etc... position in a tier list is irrelevant to 99% of players, yes. But, stuff like Leroy, MvC3 Dark Phonex, etc... Are relevant game breaking characters in any level of play past button mashing. The same for games too, Xrd will favor the person better at using the game's mechanics more so than character tier list, meanwhile with simpler games like SFV, generally abusive top tier tactics that work for top level play can be seen even in low level ranked play. Something like a throw loop in SFV is as effective at an EVO final as it is in a gold ranked match and the characters that are top because of it will be felt as much in low level play as they would at the top.
SFV trimmed a lot of that shit throughout the years, and top tiers now are(mostly) dependent on skills you wont find until top level play, and even there it's very well balanced. But things like "tiers only affect top level of play" as a blanket statement has no place in the age of easy simplified fighters.
There it is.
You are playing in a competition meaning you got a goal of winning.
The audience loves the struggle pick, the character specialist/loyalist, and how many times have we seen tournament lives lost because of it. People like Daigo, Tokido, and more said it straight up. When they decided they wanted to make this a career, choosing anything below an assumed strong character is a stupid decision when competing for livelihoods.
For me, seeing all those Leroy's in person last weekend showed me they wanted to win in the most guaranteed way possible. I respect the low tier choices but these people know they are banking all their chances on pure skill at that point.
Now if your just entering because its fun to play other strong players, sure go ahead and toss out your Alex in a tournament.
I think tiers mostly don't matter unless you're playing tournament level, but there are some games and some characters where there's a more obvious advantage like DBFZ. Bardock was really fucking good when I was playing DBFZ and that was obvious to even my mediocre ass. My life would've been so much easier if I didn't have fucking Goku Blue on my team with his garbage assist or Teen Gohan when he was bad. In Blazblue CS I did as well as I did because Hazama was just really good too.
Oh you and your fighting games again lol. Pick what you like if you have the skill. Has been shown a lot that rankings don't matter if you are a beast, but I remember you being frustrated with those games all the same and taking it way too seriously so you should always pick the easy way to have fun.
Imagine Nauman, the SFV Evo Japan 2020 winner, was constantly preoccupied about how he wasn't playing a top tier character and how he should play one because he's playing competitively. It's wasted energy; wasted effort. Even if a character isn't top 10 or whatever, the range of characters who are competitively viable is usually much larger than the usual suspects. Actual pros understand this. It's nice to give yourself that slight edge by playing a top tier character, but there is so much more to one's wins than the character they pick.
You are definitely correct. It isn't absolutely cut and dry.
As everyone has said unless you are tournament level player you shouldn't really give a shit about tiers.
It's 2020. Can we stop this lie that someones favorite char is FANG already.
It's 2020. Can we stop this lie that someones favorite char is FANG already.
I'm just not good enough to care about stuff like that. I'll play a few until I find something I can work with.
Yeah, I think it's worth mentioning that using DBFZ to make a blanket statement in the OP bothers me a bit because DBFZ is more of an exeception than the norm these days. DBFZ is kind of its own beast because the characters are so similar to each other that the unique special attacks/hitboxes can make an enormous difference. And, like the post I quoted mentioned, ArcSys being slow to patch has made the meta particularly stagnant.
SFV, Soul Calibur, Under Night and Tekken (outside of Leroy, who already got huge nerfs and will probably get more) are all pretty well balanced games that usually have a wide variety of characters show up in Top 8s. And while I only follow Smash peripherally (I did watch Glitch and Genesis), my understanding from people in the competitive scene is that it's by far the most balanced Smash by a wide margin even with a cast of 70. There's no Brawl Meta Knight or Smash 4 Bayonetta. Yes, no one is going to argue that Kirby is on the same level as someone like Joker or Pikachu or Wario, but I really do think that's a case where it only really matters in high-level competitive play, something that literally 98% of Smash players are not doing.
We've thankfully reached a point with fighting games where developers are listening to the community now more than ever and balancing games regularly enough that the days of only 5 characters being relevant are mostly gone. DBFZ is not representative of the genre as a whole.
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There's characters that are so bad you really handicapp yourself even at mid-high tier of play.
There's also characters that are easier to master than others, while still being really strong.
But for the most part there's no need to pay attention to tier lists imo. Picking who you like works most of the time.
There's also characters that are easier to master than others, while still being really strong.
But for the most part there's no need to pay attention to tier lists imo. Picking who you like works most of the time.
It's always cool to see someone succeed with low tier characters.
However, I'd much rather see someone succeed with a high tier character if it means they'll stop complaining about losing and how bad their Low-Tier character is. Shit's triggering af
Unless you're travelling the world competing among the most disciplined, talented, and knowledgeable specialists to their specific game I highly doubt playing a top tier is going to make any meaningful difference at your skill level.
That's exactly me. I go online in KI and see a bunch of Jago, Rash and I know right away I won't be playing those characters. I will try to know them so I can beat them. I usually try to play several characters but only if they appeal to me. I am not at a level where top tier matters to me anyway.
I remember playing SCVI when it came out and 60% of online matches were against Azwel. Is it still the same?
I don't know, at high levels I can see it but if you are playing for fun choose whoever. I tried jumping on the G train for street fighter 5 and I just hate the fact that he feels slow as molasses and stiff to control so I went back to my main which may not be quite as good but feels more fun to play.
I get where you are coming from though OP.
I get where you are coming from though OP.
Unless you go to tournaments, tier lists are going to be mostly irrelevant to you unless the character is so OP/so terrible that they affect all matters of play.
For non-competitive people especially, it is more important to play the characters you have the most fun with. If they happen to not be all that good, then whatever, you're still having fun. People tend to do best with the characters they invest themselves in, so even if you pick a better character you are not guaranteed to get better results if you don't care as much to play as them.
It's only if you start attending tournaments that you should consider making compromises, if necessary. You could be playing a game where the roster is relatively well-balanced (SFV and Smash Ultimate, for example) that virtually any character can carry you to at least win locals. Maybe you can use a top-tier character as a counterpick for certain bad match-ups (or, alternatively, use your favorite character as a counterpick for their good match-ups). Whatever you do, just make sure you are still having fun doing it, because otherwise what's the point? You're certainly not getting into competitive fighting games for the money, believe me. lol
For non-competitive people especially, it is more important to play the characters you have the most fun with. If they happen to not be all that good, then whatever, you're still having fun. People tend to do best with the characters they invest themselves in, so even if you pick a better character you are not guaranteed to get better results if you don't care as much to play as them.
It's only if you start attending tournaments that you should consider making compromises, if necessary. You could be playing a game where the roster is relatively well-balanced (SFV and Smash Ultimate, for example) that virtually any character can carry you to at least win locals. Maybe you can use a top-tier character as a counterpick for certain bad match-ups (or, alternatively, use your favorite character as a counterpick for their good match-ups). Whatever you do, just make sure you are still having fun doing it, because otherwise what's the point? You're certainly not getting into competitive fighting games for the money, believe me. lol
Just play what is fun to you. Ofc if you want to win and like to compete on higher lvls you should use the tools the game is giving to you.
I'm more a character loyalist than anything else. No one will ever stop me from playing Baiken <3
I'm more a character loyalist than anything else. No one will ever stop me from playing Baiken <3
I'm reminded of my friend who mained Meta Knight (In both Brawl, Smash 4, possibly Ultimate, I don't know), and in Brawl, people assumed that he ran with him because he was top-tier, whereas he really just liked Meta Knight, and Kirby in general.
This brings memories from DBZ - Budokai 3. Playing with Bardock because I loved his ultimate against Kid Buu, Omega Shenlong, GokuSSJ4...
I think if the players are at somewhat similar skill levels, the Chun player would crush the Q player at any level of play. I've played other fighting games seriously but I'm absolute trash at 3S and put no real time into it. I'd play casually with a friend and we'd go pretty even until somebody picked Chun, haha. Sometimes, a 'low level play' tier list will be wildly different than a traditional tier list, but 3S Chun is always going to be top (unlike a character like Yun, where knowing how to exploit Genei Jin is the difference between being low tier and a monster).
ill pour one out for my lei main brothers. I mean dude was dlc in 7.
It really really really doesn't matter unless your goal is to climb a ranked ladder or attend tournaments and do well.
Just depends on what your goals for the game are. If you play fighting games solely for fun why would you care about a character's tier position?
Just depends on what your goals for the game are. If you play fighting games solely for fun why would you care about a character's tier position?