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Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,941
So I spent the last week or two playing through Demon's Souls for the first time. I've played all the other Souls games, and Bloodborne, and I wanted to play the original before the remake came out.

Overall, I really enjoyed it! It does have a feeling all its own, even compared to Dark Souls. Some of it, namely the somewhat faster combat and lesser stamina penalty, reminded me of Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne rather than the much more deliberate pace of Dark Souls. The structure of the game, with the disconnected levels that you can switch between at any time, is an interesting take on what would evolve into a Metroidvania-esque structure over time. This is both the most linear and non-linear Souls game. You can go to any area at any time, right from after the first real boss, but the areas themselves are much more linear and less mazelike than the rest of the series. There are far less shortcuts and archstones (the bonfire equivalent) really only appear at the beginning of areas and in boss arenas. It's really unique to the series.

That said, I do think it has that "first pass" feel of the Souls formula, and it got me wondering how the Remake could tweak the game and take some lessons from without just turning it into another Dark Souls:
  1. The healing system should change. It shouldn't be Estus, exactly, though. Demons Souls has something of a Survival Horror feel to it, and there is a thrill to running low on healing resources just to find a Grass and save yourself. I think Bloodborne's model is a good one to look at. One grass type that restores a set amount, with an inventory limit, rather than multiple types.
  2. I do think something needs to be done to shorten some boss runs. I don't mind boss runs in general but I think a few more shortcuts may not be the worst idea. ((It's my first playthrough so I may have just missed some as well). That said, I don't dislike the more difficult levels. They're a huge pain in the ass even compared to other Souls games, but that's part of the appeal.
  3. Item Burden should be tossed. I know some people like that it makes you plan your runs more, but I personally found it just tedious and annoying. I didn't find any gratification in porting back to the Nexus just to go through menus to get the equipment I need. If the Remake insists on keeping it, than excess items should be immediately sent to Stockpile Thomas rather than just not being picked up at all.
  4. Lower the amount of materials needed to upgrade weapons and/or increase the drop rate for them. Upgrading weapons feels grindier than any other Souls game, especially when you want to upgrade later game weapons. I would make the final upgrade mats either quest rewards or boss drops.
  5. I don't mind the more puzzling boss designs at all. I actually quite enjoy them. But I do think some of the bosses should have a few attack animations reworked for better tells. Compared to Dark Souls or Bloodborne, I don't feel that all the damage I take is my fault. Same goes for some janky enemy attacks. In general, enemy design is just a little bit jankier than other Souls games, and I think those can be tweaked without re-inventing the whole game.
  6. World tendency is interesting. I actually quite like the idea, but I wish there were ways outside multiplayer to reliably raise tendency after bosses have been defeated. It sucks realizing that I have no way to get the DBS on my strength build playthrough because I didn't attain pure white on world 2 (especially since I've mostly tried to play without a guide).
  7. Even after playing through the game, I don't mind the visual changes the Remake is making. Outside of the Nexus and maybe the Tower of Latria, I was never terribly blown away by the atmosphere of the game, at least compared to the other games in the series. I think the visual design of the Remake we've seen so far is almost universally an upgrade. The Flamelurker is the exception for me, since I like the more melted look of the original. But, even then, it's not something I could really focus on with all the effects flying around in the original fight.
  8. For God's sake increase the ladder climb speed.

Even without these changes, though, I'm really interested in the Remake. Demon's Souls is a gem and while I still prefer Bloodborne and DS1, it's still great all its own. It doesn't feel like just a "proto-Dark Souls".

What are your thoughts? How much should the Remake change? How much *can* be changed without compromising the identity of the game?
 
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Deleted member 76299

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2020
97
It's going to be tricky if they implement changes, while we may seem them as an almost 'quality of life' update to bring it forward... there are a group of Souls fans that are ready to **** on the game no matter what.

I don agree that some changes need to be made though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,466
The original game will always be there, and it's my GOAT. I'm open to changes that don't completely compromise the experience, so if the actual gameplay mechanics feel identical to before (I'd hate if they changed the way rolling works or something, for example) I'm down. I agree with your suggestions!
 

Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
13,370
Barcelona
I agree that the game should be adjusted, sadly FROM has no input in the remake (they didn't even appear on the trailer), so the best outcome I expect is BluePoint using improvements FROM has already created for the following games.
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,504
I do hope Bluepoint keep some of what made Demon's Souls unique compared to FromSoft's other titles. You made a good list of things I largely agree with (Especially World Tenancy and upgrade materials, the grind for Pure Bladestone or only getting one shot at a Crystal Lizard was daft in the original version. It's not challenging, just a layer of nonsense).

The Dragon God is the number one boss that needs improving over the original, it's a badass creature tied to a chase the harpoon section. We need justice!
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,282
Just fall down the pit and you're basically at the boss I recall? I haven't played the game in a long time, but the only boss runs I remember being bad are 1-4, 4-1, and 4-2. Could be others I'm forgetting.
Yeah but the pause after each fall is annoying + you need to get it right or it's pretty much instant death.

Never had much trouble with 4 personally.
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,504
Just fall down the pit and you're basically at the boss I recall? I haven't played the game in a long time, but the only boss runs I remember being bad are 1-4, 4-1, and 4-2. Could be others I'm forgetting.

I memorised that falling route after doing it so many times, Flamelurker is actually one of the quicker bosses to get to. False King is the worst run due to the Blue Dragon in the way.
 

VoltySquirrel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
490
A note on the world tendency stuff: the popular Archstones private server has functionality built into instant change world tendency. Obviously can't really help you now that you beat it, but next time you play look into it!
 

Techno

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,409
Just fall down the pit and you're basically at the boss I recall? I haven't played the game in a long time, but the only boss runs I remember being bad are 1-4, 4-1, and 4-2. Could be others I'm forgetting.

Yeah you just jump down onto the wooden platforms to get to him.

ed: nvm, read it wrong.
 
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genjiZERO

Banned
Jan 27, 2019
835
Richmond
Level 1-1 is stil, IMO the best sequence in the entire series. One thing about the game that I really liked, but the series moved on from, what that "gaming" bosses was a viable strategy for beating them. I liked it because it gave the game a proper 8/16bit era feel, where part of the fun of the game was figuring out how to exploit the game. Every time the topic comes up I like to point out that the game (series) really feel much more like a action-adventure game from back in the day than it does a WRPG which it often gets compared to. To me, if feels nothing like an Elder's Scrolls game, but exactly like Simon's Quest or Ghost n' Goblins. Also, I really dug that the final boss was this anemic parasitic thing, and NG+ felt like being trapped in an endless cycle of reincarnation. I do agree that Dark Souls was the perfection of the idea, but it was an absolute masterpiece for it's time.
 

Tailzo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,917
I finished Demons Souls after importing the asian version and I was blown away.

I haven't replayed it since, so I look forward to the remake.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
Not gonna happen, but I'd want to use my PS3 save. Before I stopped playing I just got the raggedy robes armour at the start of NG+ and I'd want to use that.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
Level 1-1 is stil, IMO the best sequence in the entire series. One thing about the game that I really liked, but the series moved on from, what that "gaming" bosses was a viable strategy for beating them. I liked it because it gave the game a proper 8/16bit era feel, where part of the fun of the game was figuring out how to exploit the game. Every time the topic comes up I like to point out that the game (series) really feel much more like a action-adventure game from back in the day than it does a WRPG which it often gets compared to. To me, if feels nothing like an Elder's Scrolls game, but exactly like Simon's Quest or Ghost n' Goblins. Also, I really dug that the final boss was this anemic parasitic thing, and NG+ felt like being trapped in an endless cycle of reincarnation. I do agree that Dark Souls was the perfection of the idea, but it was an absolute masterpiece for it's time.
I totally agree. These games sort of have the perfect blend of action games and RPGs. Fans of either genre are well served in Demon's Souls especially.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,436
I don't think the remake will change anything (besides the technical aspects of course) save for QoL improvements, as it should be.
 

Chocobo Blade

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,848
For me it's mainly:
1. Certain boss runs really need shortcuts. 1-4 while not too long is really annoying and the reason I haven't finished the game.
2. Upgrade materials desperately need higher drop rates. Some of them were just obnoxious like pure bladestone.
3. While some of the gimmicky boss fights are cool, Dragon God is just awful. Needs to be completely revamped.

I'm also not a fan of the remake's art direction as it seems to really not "get" the original's atmosphere but it is what it is I guess.
 

Patsy

Member
Jun 7, 2019
1,279
Germany
Demon's is my favorite Souls game & I genuinely do not mind changes as long as the base is still intact & doesn't get changed beyond recognition (as in, don't change the story, world-building & lore). I love the Remake's look a lot & while there's some designs I also don't love like the Flamelurker, overall it doesn't hinder my excitement one bit. Would absolutely support the QoL changes, especially either giving you more materials or reducing the costs, because getting enough without using the duplication glitch is torture lmao. A part of me actually hopes they somehow keep that glitch in just because it's so fun to use
 
Oct 28, 2017
925
The only changes to the Demons Souls formula should come from From Software, and no one else. At least I hope Miyazaki has been consulted on some level if they do make changes, anything else is ridiculous. Its like remaking a Mario game without including Miyamoto in the process.

Having said that, the problem with going back to DS now is that its pretty outdated, especially in terms of how you can access the levels as the OP says. They just hit the right formula with Dark Souls, and how that is a far more organic and connected feeling adventure with the bonfires dotted around the areas as you discover them.

Any kind of change to original game is ridiculous, it should be preserved exactly as it were. The whole idea of remaking DS without From is ridiculous, but I guess thats all they got after dropping the game on the floor and letting the sequels go to BandaiNamco.

I just wish the game were compatible with the ps4 and ps5, Ive still got got the original JAP box sitting on my shelf right now and would much rather be able to just play that on current hardware rather than having to buy all of this just to play the remake.
 

Ishmae1

Creative Director, Microsoft
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
539
Seattle, WA
  1. The healing system should change. It shouldn't be Estus, exactly, though. Demons Souls has something of a Survival Horror feel to it, and there is a thrill to running low on healing resources just to find a Grass and save yourself. I think Bloodborne's model is a good one to look at. One grass type that restores a set amount, with an inventory limit, rather than multiple types.
This would be a very disappointing change. Forcing players to retreat from progress to farm for healing resources because they're trying to learn encounters / make progress is a horrible system. It's the biggest flaw in Bloodborne (notice Sekiro didn't do this either) and to see it put into Souls would diminish the fun of the game as it stands, IMO.

As a difficulty option / setting / mod? Sure. Do it. Go crazy.

What one player finds easy, another may find insanely stressful. It's very hard to get emotional payoff of the kind you're after that would fit every player type.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,962
North Carolina
I'll be extremely disappointed if item burden isn't removed. There is a reason its not in the other Souls games. It sucks. And yeah materials should be easier to come by. Pure Bladestone is hell to get for no god damn reason.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,941
This would be a very disappointing change. Forcing players to retreat from progress to farm for healing resources because they're trying to learn encounters / make progress is a horrible system. It's the biggest flaw in Bloodborne (notice Sekiro didn't do this either) and to see it put into Souls would diminish the fun of the game as it stands, IMO.

As a difficulty option / setting / mod? Sure. Do it. Go crazy.

What one player finds easy, another may find insanely stressful. It's very hard to get emotional payoff of the kind you're after that would fit every player type.
The problem is that Demons Souls already has a consumable-based healing system, and I'm trying to think of ways to improve it without changing the underlying systems too much. I wouldn't say no to an Estus-styled healing system though.
 
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Mupod

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,861
I wonder if they'll at least make 2-2 more visually interesting than 'brown tunnel'. I do think most of Demons Souls level design holds up well but that area looks and plays like it fell out of an early PS2 game.
 

super-famicom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
25,151
The only things I would want changed would be to remove inventory (not equipment!) weight load and to better explain world tendencies.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,941
The only changes to the Demons Souls formula should come from From Software, and no one else. At least I hope Miyazaki has been consulted on some level if they do make changes, anything else is ridiculous. Its like remaking a Mario game without including Miyamoto in the process.

Having said that, the problem with going back to DS now is that its pretty outdated, especially in terms of how you can access the levels as the OP says. They just hit the right formula with Dark Souls, and how that is a far more organic and connected feeling adventure with the bonfires dotted around the areas as you discover them.

Any kind of change to original game is ridiculous, it should be preserved exactly as it were. The whole idea of remaking DS without From is ridiculous, but I guess thats all they got after dropping the game on the floor and letting the sequels go to BandaiNamco.

I just wish the game were compatible with the ps4 and ps5, Ive still got got the original JAP box sitting on my shelf right now and would much rather be able to just play that on current hardware rather than having to buy all of this just to play the remake.
IIRC, Miyazaki has been consulted on the project. But, either way, I'm willing to give other teams a shot to implement their ideas. Worst case scenario, the remake is worse than the original and I'd go back to the OG to play it.
 

4 Get!

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 8, 2019
1,326
As long as they keep the horror aspects/feel of the original(almost everything after the first zone), I'm fine with whatever changes they make.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,941
Ha! You know what, you're correct. It's been so bloody long since Demon's Souls I was thinking Dark Souls. Duh.

I obviously would prefer estus!
Yup. Uses a tiered consumable healing system. In theory, a consumable healing system can lead to you running low on resources and then getting a saving item drop. It's a cool feeling and it helps bolster the survival-horror aspects of Demon's Souls, which is something that differentiates it from other games in the series. In practice, though, it really just meant you grinded and stocked up on a bunch of different grasses, which each take up space in your inventory and item slots, which also serves to lessen the boss difficulty because healing is so plentiful.

Like I said, I wouldn't be turned off by an Estus system, but I think there are tweaks that could be made to the system already in place to make it more functional without tossing it entirely.
 

Aadiboy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,640
I like the long, unforgiving levels. They really push the notion of getting a little bit farther with each run you do. 3-2 an 5-2 would not be as memorable if not for their difficulty and length. Also, having to earn a checkpoint by killing a boss adds to that feeling of finally overcoming hardship that all Souls games should have.
 

Grimmjow

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,543
As far as healing goes, I think they should make it more like Bloodborne if they want to strike some middle ground between estus and the grass. Maybe get rid of the the extra variants and make it so the grass can be upgraded.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,941
I like the long, unforgiving levels. They really push the notion of getting a little bit farther with each run you do. 3-2 an 5-2 would not be as memorable if not for their difficulty and length. Also, having to earn a checkpoint by killing a boss adds to that feeling of finally overcoming hardship that all Souls games should have.
I do too. In general, Demons Souls tends more toward "difficult levels, easy bosses" when compared to the rest of the series, with a few exceptions (Flamelurker and Maneaters, anyone). Again, something that I think makes it unique in the series. But I think that, eventually, the long boss runs just become tedious. I think some shortcuts to curb the longer boss runs would help a bit.
 

Jay-T

Member
Oct 28, 2017
308
Do you think they'll keep Firestorm as OP as the original? Seriously that spell just breaks the game
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,941
Do you think they'll keep Firestorm as OP as the original? Seriously that spell just breaks the game
I didn't play a magic build, so I don't know the details, but I've heard that magic in general completely breaks the game in DeS. I would imagine there would be some rebalancing. Maybe not though!
 

XrossExam

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,902
Magic is a bit overpowered in DeS but it only gets insane when you get Soul Arrow and level up your magic. Breezed through the game once I had that.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,054
Yep this is what I'm hoping for too. I'm totally fine with them making changes, as long as they keep the original intact as well.


Think 100% intact is unfeasible but as close as they can. Then go as crazy as they like with the other mode.

If they make a good game though, I'm not going to complain.
 

Fonst

Member
Nov 16, 2017
7,062
Do you think they will have rare items that will change the World Tendency?

I really loved how you couldn't progress on certain levels until you beat X or Y. It really let you choose your narrative and while it might seem anti-climatic, I always felt that Maiden Astraea was always the last thing to do. Old King is the hardest but storywise Astraea made me think about my actions and perhaps reflect on it.
 

TripleBee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,641
Vancouver
I would love for them to add the planned world for the broken archstone. I will be bummed if it's still broken.
 

dosh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,252
I agree with some of your remarks (item burden is mostly annoying and weapon upgrades are a pain) but one thing I'd really love is for the remake to make every armor set available to both man and woman model.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
Level 1-1 is stil, IMO the best sequence in the entire series. One thing about the game that I really liked, but the series moved on from, what that "gaming" bosses was a viable strategy for beating them. I liked it because it gave the game a proper 8/16bit era feel, where part of the fun of the game was figuring out how to exploit the game. Every time the topic comes up I like to point out that the game (series) really feel much more like a action-adventure game from back in the day than it does a WRPG which it often gets compared to. To me, if feels nothing like an Elder's Scrolls game, but exactly like Simon's Quest or Ghost n' Goblins. Also, I really dug that the final boss was this anemic parasitic thing, and NG+ felt like being trapped in an endless cycle of reincarnation. I do agree that Dark Souls was the perfection of the idea, but it was an absolute masterpiece for it's time.
I totally agree. These games sort of have the perfect blend of action games and RPGs. Fans of either genre are well served in Demon's Souls especially.
Technically you can draw a line of ancestry from Souls all the way back to Ultima Underworld 1, but you could do the same for BioShock. I think the only thing they all have in common is the original core idea -- take an RPG dungeon and make it feel as rich and believable as possible.
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,263
Edinburgh, UK
I personally want them to change as much as they want and make the game theirs. I would love BluePoint to use this is as their own IP, based on the original.
 

Necron

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,281
Switzerland
Replayed it also in 2020 a few months ago... it's rough.

I do hope they make some significant changes to make it shine.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
The worst "run back to the boss" one is probably 4-2. That level has zero shortcuts, lol. At least the boss is fairly easy, but I do remember dying there the first time, after thoroughly clearing the level and carrying like, 100k souls, so the run back was tense as fuck :D

1-4 isn't that bad if you kill the blue dragon. You get one red-eyed knight in the way, but that's it.