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Julian Assange's extradition to US approved by UK government
- Thread starter Shard Shinjuku
- Start date
- News
The guy already deserves a prison sentence for rape, so I really don't care if he ends up in prison for something else.
It's basically a "convicting Al Capone for tax evasion" sort of deal to me. Sure, it's not exactly the kind of justice he should be facing, but at least there's at least some karmic retribution going on.
It's basically a "convicting Al Capone for tax evasion" sort of deal to me. Sure, it's not exactly the kind of justice he should be facing, but at least there's at least some karmic retribution going on.
I don't feel any particular way about this other than "lol geez". The very last entity I would ever want to piss off is the US government.
We are defending Assange the same way you are defending US war crimes and murders of civilians.
ie not at all
Someone should tell this to, ahem, the Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...assanges-extradition-a-bad-day-for-journalism
But I'm sure they didn't check with ERA first
No, it's not. Arresting Al Capone for tax evasion doesn't really set a precedent -- people go to jail for tax evasion, it can happen, etc.
Extraditing and arresting someone because they exposed the war crimes of the most powerful nation in the world, however, sets a very dangerous precedent. One that might keep people from coming forward in the future or the press from publishing their findings.
I don't care about Assange one bit. I don't care if he's a good or bad person, it's completely irrelevant to what's happening right now. I care about someone being extradited and arrested for exposing literal war crimes. I will never be happy with the US incarcerating a whistleblower that leaked some of their atrocious actions, no matter how shit that person may be.
Once again, if he was being extradited on charges of rape or election fraud whatever, I wouldn't really care. But that's not the reason and these factors are completely irrelevant in the extradition that's happening right now.
What government hasn't used dubious "reasons" to murder civilians?
I think people get so caught up in their idealism that they miss the reality that's right in front of them.
This guy is going to be tortured in some fashion if he is sent to the US. The fact some of you guys are okay with that is fucking weird.
Plus the precedents this sets will have a negative effect in the journalism world. He shouldn't be dragged away to a US jail for exposing war crimes that the US committed no matter how much you hate the guy.
Plus the precedents this sets will have a negative effect in the journalism world. He shouldn't be dragged away to a US jail for exposing war crimes that the US committed no matter how much you hate the guy.
He isn't getting arrested for whistleblowing. He's getting arrested for everything he leaked outside of the whistleblowing. But I guess, some are okay with leaking things indiscriminately in a way that leaks peoples location, outs gay people, and a host of other things. He also did it as part of being an agent of Putin.
I also wouldn't use the guardian as the bastion of what's chilling to journalism. They consider Johnny Depp successfully suing his abuser a blow to journalism.
User banned (1 week): cross-community sniping
Just more leftists showing their assholes like they have been since the beginning of the year.
There's a reason why Socialist-ERA is a fucking graveyard.
"Leftists"
The horseshoe theory has never felt more real, honestly.
Fucking seriously. The last several months have really opened my eyes as to how much certain online leftists view things as a team sport just as much as the alt-right.
Oh are we sharing opinion columns?, I can share several saying he is not a journalist.
Stans for empire calling out leftists for "showing their assholes" is a sight to behold.
Horseshoe theory my ass. You guys couldn't care less about the victims of US war crimes now could you.
Some people you see here are not just that latte sipping comfortable western performative leftist caricature you have built in your mind. Some are from areas that are subject of empire
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Lol you didn't read it did you?
It's the editorial, not a rando column.
Christ
I hope Assange rots for a long time. Same for the rest of Russia's pawns/bought men.
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Written by "Editorial", which represents the view of the Guardian.
In what world is the Editorial section not opinion? It's the opinions of the Editorial staff (unless it's listed as Op-Ed(Opposing Editorial)), but it's still opinion
staff post - chill out
Official Staff Communication
Ok, we can talk about this Assange thing without literally sniping at each other.
It's true that he revealed crimes by the US Military, but also true that he doxxed hundreds of LGBTQ+ people in nations where being LGBTQ+ can result in jail time or death.
He can be an asshole and have done something good at the same time.
In addition, he shouldn't be getting put on trial for the good thing he did but should be seeing consequences for the bad. That it's the other way around shows how fucked up the world is. That nobody, even people on the left, seems to care about the bad also shows how fucked up everything is and how we're all more than willing to look past horrible actions when it comes to people we perceive to be on our team.
I'm asking everyone in here to stop treating this shit like it's some team sports nonsense. I make this request because there's literally two people on this page of the thread who have managed to avoid acting like this is team sports. You guys are literally all embarrassing yourselves and showing your asses nonstop. Have some respect for yourselves and each other and treat this with the seriousness it deserves.
It's true that he revealed crimes by the US Military, but also true that he doxxed hundreds of LGBTQ+ people in nations where being LGBTQ+ can result in jail time or death.
He can be an asshole and have done something good at the same time.
In addition, he shouldn't be getting put on trial for the good thing he did but should be seeing consequences for the bad. That it's the other way around shows how fucked up the world is. That nobody, even people on the left, seems to care about the bad also shows how fucked up everything is and how we're all more than willing to look past horrible actions when it comes to people we perceive to be on our team.
I'm asking everyone in here to stop treating this shit like it's some team sports nonsense. I make this request because there's literally two people on this page of the thread who have managed to avoid acting like this is team sports. You guys are literally all embarrassing yourselves and showing your asses nonstop. Have some respect for yourselves and each other and treat this with the seriousness it deserves.
An opinion that represents the view of the newspaper.
Ok.
I highly doubt Assange was ever a real journalist, that actually requires integrity and being willing to make your benefactors look bad instead of shielding them or kissing their ass.
In that regard, I'm fine with him being tried as a Russian asset since its probably the more accurate description of what his job and aims actually were.
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User Threadbanned (permanent): metacommentary
This thread seems to be stuck in an episode of the last season of stranger things.
Dialogue on this issue (and unfortunately on many other issues, especially surrounding the US), seems to be impossible, and it's really disheartening.
Dialogue on this issue (and unfortunately on many other issues, especially surrounding the US), seems to be impossible, and it's really disheartening.
Americans believe in the authority and righteousness of their government, so any systemic outcomes produced by american institutions are obliquely rationalized while Enemies of the State are individualized, centered, and exceptionalized.
There are two parties here: The US Govt and Julian Assange. Both of them with aims against each other, but objectively speaking which has caused more harm? Who has taken more lives, who has destablized more countries. Julian assange can be rightfully crucified for exposing people in Saudi Arabia to harm but in the context of his dispute between the himself and the US, somehow his crimes are relatively significant to be worse than the US giving Saudi Arabia half a billion in weapons just last year. People think this is "whataboutism" rather than looking at the totality of the US and the military industrial complex. Do you think the "invisible arm" of government that gave SA a bunch of weapons isn't the same arm aiming to put Assange in the hole? Do we truly believe these actions aren't interconnected?
I mean its so clear. Assange will be punished for whatever crimes we think he deserves, meanwhile the actions and crimes of the US he exposed will continue to go unaddressed. It's incredibly easy to say "oh well I dont like those things either" but here you are playing both sides in rhetoric while supporting the actions of Big Evil. People are more forgiving of institutions that produce bad outcomes than individuals who produce bad outcomes. The US Govt will never lose its legitimacy in the eyes of many Americans, thats why they support Assange getting tortured (which you shouldn't even begin to suggest that wont be the case) because thats what happens to Enemies of the State.
Not trying to be antagonistic, but painting opponents of this prosecution as "going to bat for" or "defending" Assange increasingly reads as bad faith to me, or at the very least willfully ignoring what others are saying. The concern is with how this case could damage freedom of the press and freedom of speech, and how it could have a chilling effect on people's ability to expose crimes committed by the US government. You can say that Assange is not a journalist, but this is not a legal distinction as far as the US is concerned.
I think more people should watch this video posted on the first page to understand precisely what Assange is being charged with, and by extension what the US is trying to establish as a punishable offense (spoiler: it's the act of publishing information the government deems confidential, which is an important journalistic practice in order to hold the government accountable).
Julian Assange is terrible, but he's not on trial for any of the things this board rightfully hates him for, and the implications of his case are too far-reaching for us to just accept it on the grounds that this individual deserves to be punished for unrelated reasons.
Assange is a hired gun.
Feels almost kind of insulting to actual journalists to keep calling him one at this point. I get and respect why people want to go to the slippery slope argument but in this case, I just can't agree with it.
Calling yourself a brave journalist striking out against American imperialism while getting handfed to do it by an opposing country who are currently commiting cultural genocide in europe and is a bitter enemy of democracy, you just lose all credibility with me.
More of a general statement than directed at anyone here.
They certainly have in the past.
Fair enough. But it reads as a strawman in the context of this thread.
He's on trial for indiscriminately leaking. He leaked a whole lot more than just what he blew the whistle on. It doesn't set a precedent that hasn't already been set. You don't get whistleblower status for everything just cause some leaks could be protected. It would be a dangerous precedent if not chosen to prosecute. It'd allow bad actors to leak targeted information to put their enemies in danger then release any negative information they have and claim whistleblower
You are conflating "leaking" with "publishing." If you are an employee of the government or gain confidential information through some sort of security clearance, and then leak that information, then you are not protected in general. The "leaking" or "whistleblowing" was done by Chelsea Manning, and she was unsurprisingly prosecuted. Assange is not a government employee or even US citizen. Manning gave him confidential information, and Assange, having no obligations to the US government, published it. This is what he's being prosecuted for.
He didn't publish. He hosted files. That makes him an accessory to leaking. You are typically prosecuted for aiding and abetting. It's why actual journalists read through information and selectively publish information. In fact, file hosting sites have been prosecuted in the past for what's on their sites.
I don't see the distinction between publishing and hosting files. Journalists selectively publish because they try to be responsible with information, but broadly speaking the government should not be able to decide what it means for a non-employee to be responsible with information, especially when it incriminates the government. And yes, there are things which it is illegal to publish / host, but I think information generally is not and should not be one of them.
I mean think about where that logically leads. Information should always be revealed responsibly. Doing so could people at risk of being ostracized or worse murdered whether it be from blowing a cover or revealing details about peoples personal lives and make no mistake WikiLeaks has done both with the latter impacting the US government.
The government has a legitimate interest in protecting its secrets and policing how information is handled internally. And, of course, information should still be revealed responsible when it's been leaked, but again, at that point it is giving the government a huge amount of power to still have jurisdiction over how that information is handled by unaffiliated actors.
Anyway, my main issue with this thread was the strawmanning, and you don't appear to be doing that so I might just agree to disagree.
The articles in the OP didn't really say much, so I read up on what he's actually being charged with to refresh my memory. If I'm understanding correctly, the main indictment is a violation of the 1917 Espionage Act over the Chelsea Manning leak, not the DNC hack that and subsequent terrible behavior that rightfully got him villified. Reading up on past news articles, it turns out that both NYT and WaPo vocally aargued against the indictment and that the Obama admin didn't even want to charge Assange in the first place.
apnews.com
The alternative seems to be that the Obama admin was too scared to do the right thing and go after him, unlike the more confident Trump admin. That doesn't feel very right to me, but I guess it is possible.
Random question: What is the history of extraditing non-citized to the US based on leaks? Is this something that we do on a regular basis to like, spies?
Charging Assange reflects dramatic shift in US approach
The Julian Assange case represents a dramatic new approach to the founder of WikiLeaks by the U.S. government.
apnews.com
Now, I am by no means a huge fan of either WaPo or NYT, but when a lot of reasonable people seem to view charging Assange as a sus, Trump-y idea I'm inclined to view the extradition going through as also sus.
The alternative seems to be that the Obama admin was too scared to do the right thing and go after him, unlike the more confident Trump admin. That doesn't feel very right to me, but I guess it is possible.
Random question: What is the history of extraditing non-citized to the US based on leaks? Is this something that we do on a regular basis to like, spies?
I completely agree I just have issue with the fact he is probably going to receive some form of torture. Also, the over reaching hand of authority the US has on this matter. If he could be trialed at an international court for the damages he caused to the people he exposed to danger that would be great. I just don't trust the US government to limit it to this one person or instance.
It's not horseshoe theory though, there's people across the entire political spectrum who want to always see their team win. Leftists, Centrists, Right Wing nut jobs. There's nothing more special that indicates an actual horseshoe theory outside of centrists doing the usual thing of pretending their above it all while just as eager to see their team win and stumping for them relentlessly. Ideologues exist in every political position and always will.
But again, it's important to remember exactly what Assange goes down on can have serious impacts regardless of how much you hate the man and just want to see him go to prison. People bringing up the Capone example are being irresponsible for example because Capone was caught on a lesser charge to go to prison, while Assange would be going on a significantly greater and more problematic for the US as a whole charge if he goes on the 1917 Espionage Act. I don't think people are stumping for Assange at all or being leftists jeering for a man whose website was the launch pad against the imperialism within the US. I think a lot of people want to see this all handled correctly and not in such a way that creates even more shitty precedents in the US as the Supreme Court is actively codifying more and more power to specific centralized authorities and further closing ranks actively on the government officials. It's never been about Assange being a journalist or not, whether or not he's a piece of shit (he absolutely is and nobody is actually arguing this contrary to the strawmen being thrown around). It's about very specifically what the US chooses to do when they get their hands on him and what ramifications that decision will have on the basis of which charge they throw at him.
He's a piece of shit who personally deserves what's coming but I'd rather not have the next Republican president make a big show of executing him. Can they still do public executions? Seems like an easy PR win.
Kill a scumbag and chill any criticism of empire all in one. What a pargain!
Kill a scumbag and chill any criticism of empire all in one. What a pargain!
The articles in the OP didn't really say much, so I read up on what he's actually being charged with to refresh my memory. If I'm understanding correctly, the main indictment is a violation of the 1917 Espionage Act over the Chelsea Manning leak, not the DNC hack that and subsequent terrible behavior that rightfully got him villified. Reading up on past news articles, it turns out that both NYT and WaPo vocally aargued against the indictment and that the Obama admin didn't even want to charge Assange in the first place.
Charging Assange reflects dramatic shift in US approach
The Julian Assange case represents a dramatic new approach to the founder of WikiLeaks by the U.S. government.
Now, I am by no means a huge fan of either WaPo or NYT, but when a lot of reasonable people seem to view charging Assange as a sus, Trump-y idea I'm inclined to view the extradition going through as also sus.
The alternative seems to be that the Obama admin was too scared to do the right thing and go after him, unlike the more confident Trump admin. That doesn't feel very right to me, but I guess it is possible.
Random question: What is the history of extraditing non-citized to the US based on leaks? Is this something that we do on a regular basis to like, spies?
Consider that the Obama admin also commuted Chelsea Manning's sentence (albeit after a long and cruel imprisonment) so I dunno maybe they had a pang of remorse towards the end that one of Obama's legacies was going to be presiding over, then covering up, war crimes in conflicts he himself ran on being stupid and destructive.
Perhaps it was more cynical than that and they really did think the blowback for it wasn't worth it and it was in everyone's best interest to pretend like it never happened.
Certainly none of this seems to concern Trump or Biden who are more comfortable with simply allowing the empire's actions speak for themselves. Men who are content to openly vaporize civilians and then shrug.
It would be better if he would face trial for the sexual assault he did in a neutral country, because him being delivered to a country who sees him as a traitor will definitely make it more difficult for anyone who is willing to leak stuff in the future.
But I know that some people on here even have problems with Snowden (he lives in russia so apparently he must work together with Putin) so I rather don't want to say more.
But I know that some people on here even have problems with Snowden (he lives in russia so apparently he must work together with Putin) so I rather don't want to say more.