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Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,422
Smart judge. That was clearly a retaliatory move. And RIP in peace to that whole thread of people saying it made sense. It doesn't, it didn't and now its gone.

Microsoft was right. Glad to see it get filed down to the things that matter without the retaliatory collateral damage.
 

Deleted member 13077

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,513
Smart judge. That was clearly a retaliatory move. And RIP in peace to that whole thread of people saying it made sense. It doesn't, it didn't and now its gone.

Microsoft was right. Glad to see it get filed down to the things that matter without the retaliatory collateral damage.

I mean, there were a lot of people that thought it was incredibly shitty but that it was just as much on Epic's actions as it was on Apple, which is something the judge agreed with.
 

Tecnniqe

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,743
Antarctica
Did the court itself say that the case would not be thrown out if Epic agreed to Apple's terms? I didn't see it in the article, but I'm rather tired so I could have missed it.

The case isn't about imminent harm, but in order to have standing to bring a court case generally, there must be injury in fact that is actual or imminent. That's what I was getting at--but i'm not well versed in antitrust, so I couldn't tell you if something less would constitute actual/imminent harm.

There's also still time for that to occur during the preliminary injunction, but from what I read it seems clear that the judge isn't interested in dragging down third parties along with Epic. But again, tired and may have misread.
 

Tecnniqe

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,743
Antarctica
Smart judge. That was clearly a retaliatory move. And RIP in peace to that whole thread of people saying it made sense. It doesn't, it didn't and now its gone.

Microsoft was right. Glad to see it get filed down to the things that matter without the retaliatory collateral damage.
Of course it makes sense for them (Apple) to cut all ties. They wanted nothing to do with Epic after the stunt they pulled and they view it as the same entity.

that doesn't make you defend Apple.

saying that what Epic did, because they had to know this was going to happen seems to indicate they don't care about the third parties as much as they want the appearance of it.

a statement which also defends neither.
 

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093


from what this looks like to me, this tweet is about the TRO not the standing of the case itself. Which, again, was what I was referring to (standing for the case not the argument for the necessity of a TRO). But if the judge has said they can continue regardless at this point, there's less reasoning for that (although cases can always be later overturned for lack of standing so I understand being cautious).
But again I may be misreading as it's late 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

Tecnniqe

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,743
Antarctica
from what this looks like to me, this tweet is about the TRO not the standing of the case itself. Which, again, was what I was referring to (standing for the case not the argument for the necessity of a TRO). But if the judge has said they can continue regardless at this point, there's less reasoning for that (although cases can always be later overturned for lack of standing so I understand being cautious).
But again I may be misreading as it's late 🤷🏻‍♀️
To me it reads more like "the case will continue regardless but you both can just return to how it was until then and we wouldn't need to be here" but I could be wrong as well.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
I think this in itself is a reasonable ruling based on that UE and Fortnite was under separate contracts, but it worries me a lot that some people, including Microsoft, throws around the argument that Epic are essentially too important to be allowed to suffer any negative consequences of, in this case, their own actions.

Basically, 2008 called and it wants its rhetoric back.
They had their game pulled and the losses associated with that. There's your negative consequence.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
Smart judge. That was clearly a retaliatory move. And RIP in peace to that whole thread of people saying it made sense. It doesn't, it didn't and now its gone.

Microsoft was right. Glad to see it get filed down to the things that matter without the retaliatory collateral damage.

Only reason why Apple claims didn't pass is because they didn't provide enough evidence that those are shell companies. Judge still didn't dismissed that they are but because other parties are at risk she decided to put things this way not to endanger those not involved. If Apple provides enough evidence that those are shell companies (which they probably are because all Epic assets are apparently tied to same bank account and tax number) Judge will allow Apple to ban them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
This seems like the right call to me.
seems like the most reasonable one.

Only reason why Apple claims didn't pass is because they didn't provide enough evidence that those are shell companies. Judge still didn't dismissed that they are but because other parties are at risk she decided to put things this way not to endanger those not involved. If Apple provides enough evidence that those are shell companies (which they probably are because all Epic assets are apparently tied to same bank account and tax number) Judge will allow Apple to ban them.
interesting.
 

Tecnniqe

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,743
Antarctica
I dunno, reading it back you sure made it sound like Apple are always shitty but Epic are worse because they are sometimes shitty.
From a developer standpoint they probably are in this exact situation due to how reckless they acted with the potential to drag a lot of innocent people down with them. It doesn't inspire business confidence to put your trust in them. That's simply my point about the whole UE thing, and as the Judge got to hear it could've easily swung the other way with another judge and then what (see below)? No UE support for a year? That's absolutely terrible but also entirely self made from Epic.
Only reason why Apple claims didn't pass is because they didn't provide enough evidence that those are shell companies. Judge still didn't dismissed that they are but because other parties are at risk she decided to put things this way not to endanger those not involved. If Apple provides enough evidence that those are shell companies (which they probably are because all Epic assets are apparently tied to same bank account and tax number) Judge will allow Apple to ban them.
 

Kaim Argonar

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,268
Fair.

Only reason why Apple claims didn't pass is because they didn't provide enough evidence that those are shell companies. Judge still didn't dismissed that they are but because other parties are at risk she decided to put things this way not to endanger those not involved. If Apple provides enough evidence that those are shell companies (which they probably are because all Epic assets are apparently tied to same bank account and tax number) Judge will allow Apple to ban them.

Woah.
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,902
Judgement seems fair and what I would go with.

Epic pulled a dick move trying to buypass the store fees and Apple responded with a dick move by cutting Epic off from development support for a different product that they weren't trying to bypass store fees or pull any funny business with (yet).
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
Not surprising, Apple probably saw it going this way too but wanted to make their rule enforcement seem consistent regardless. Epic have done the damage to their reputation though, it wouldn't surprise me if some devs second guess using UE over its competitors based on not knowing the next time Epic is going to throw them to the wolves and potentially not get bailed out by a judge.

Judgement seems fair and what I would go with.

Epic pulled a dick move trying to buypass the store fees and Apple responded with a dick move by cutting Epic off from development support for a different product that they weren't trying to bypass store fees or pull any funny business with (yet).
On Apple's side, it's all one account. Breaching rules on that account to the point the account get closed impacts everything tied to it, it's not like they were targeting UE (although they were happy that it did.) They can't just split the account either as then Epic would need to pay two fees.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
Not surprising, Apple probably saw it going this way too but wanted to make their rule enforcement seem consistent regardless. Epic have done the damage to their reputation though, it wouldn't surprise me if some devs second guess using UE over its competitors based on not knowing the next time Epic is going to throw them to the wolves and potentially not get bailed out by a judge.


On Apple's side, it's all one account. Breaching rules on that account to the point the account get closed impacts everything tied to it, it's not like they were targeting UE (although they were happy that it did.) They can't just split the account either as then Epic would need to pay two fees.

Apparently it's not one account but both accounts and agreements are signed by Tim and both are using same tax number and same bank account if I managed to get things right. There are Epic Games International s.a.r.l (Unreal Engine related) and Epic Games. Apple argues that s.a.r.l one is just shell company because uses same tax number and bank account as other one.

 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
Apparently it's not one account but both accounts and agreements are signed by Tim and both are using same tax number and same bank account if I managed to get things right. There are Epic Games International s.a.r.l (Unreal Engine related) and Epic Games. Apple argues that s.a.r.l one is just shell company because uses same tax number and bank account as other one.


Oh that's weird. Smart of Epic to keep them separate like that, specifically to avoid fuckups with Fortnite impacting the UE side I guess.
 

bxsonic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,224
I can't understand why Epic would not just remove their IAP option for the moment while continuing this legal battle Apple. The longer this gets dragged out, the more I think Epic will be at a disadvantage. Having Fortnite be blocked from iOS for months or even years is going to make Epic lose a shit ton of money.
 

Deleted member 22002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
478
So basically, Apple fell in Epic's trap and provided a clear example of reckless retaliation to be used in the real trial. A behavior Apple was specifically asked about in the recent antitrust hearings.

At no point the UE licence was at any risk, even if the dual company move didn't work they are one step from turning off the Fortnite transactions (which I expect will happen once the story becomes old news and the trial starts proper). At this point the transactions are still up because it's generating lots of good buzz.

I think Apple should really start taking this trial seriously, Epic is no pushover indie company nor desperately dependent on iOS and unlike similar cases they can't be scared into obedience with one flick, and Epic has clearly shown that when they want to kill a monopoly they put their money where it hurts (see Steam) regardless of what people and partners say or think.

Again, it's two horrible companies fighting, with the hopeful outcome of making corporate censorship and monopoly of mobile computing a crazy thing of the past, the worst outcome being that things stay the same. Literally free entertainment.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
I can't understand why Epic would not just remove their IAP option for the moment while continuing this legal battle Apple. The longer this gets dragged out, the more I think Epic will be at a disadvantage. Having Fortnite be blocked from iOS for months or even years is going to make Epic lose a shit ton of money.
Because Epic really did not give a fuck about their clients that are dependent on their engine on IOS. If they would have, then what you said would have been the first course of action in respect to their customer base.
 

Muad'dib

Banned
Jun 7, 2018
1,253
Apparently it's not one account but both accounts and agreements are signed by Tim and both are using same tax number and same bank account if I managed to get things right. There are Epic Games International s.a.r.l (Unreal Engine related) and Epic Games. Apple argues that s.a.r.l one is just shell company because uses same tax number and bank account as other one.



I thought only France and Francophone countries like mine used S.A.R.L. Weird seeing an American company using S.A.R.L when they can just use L.L.C? Aren't they the same concept?

Just raises question marks around the whole thing.
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,599
Italy
Legit ruling, which reiterates "Fuck Fortnite, Fuck Tim Sweeney" but also "Leave Unreal Engine alone".
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,182
Only reason why Apple claims didn't pass is because they didn't provide enough evidence that those are shell companies. Judge still didn't dismissed that they are but because other parties are at risk she decided to put things this way not to endanger those not involved. If Apple provides enough evidence that those are shell companies (which they probably are because all Epic assets are apparently tied to same bank account and tax number) Judge will allow Apple to ban them.

Hmm. This is juicier than I originally thought
 

Steiner_Zi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,343
Smart judge. That was clearly a retaliatory move. And RIP in peace to that whole thread of people saying it made sense. It doesn't, it didn't and now its gone.
But It's not gone, this is only the temporary restraining order, the matter will be settled in court which may still decide to put all Epic products off the App store. Though there's always the possibility of them settling before that.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
So basically, Apple fell in Epic's trap and provided a clear example of reckless retaliation to be used in the real trial. A behavior Apple was specifically asked about in the recent antitrust hearings.

At no point the UE licence was at any risk, even if the dual company move didn't work they are one step from turning off the Fortnite transactions (which I expect will happen once the story becomes old news and the trial starts proper). At this point the transactions are still up because it's generating lots of good buzz.

I think Apple should really start taking this trial seriously, Epic is no pushover indie company nor desperately dependent on iOS and unlike similar cases they can't be scared into obedience with one flick, and Epic has clearly shown that when they want to kill a monopoly they put their money where it hurts (see Steam) regardless of what people and partners say or think.

Again, it's two horrible companies fighting, with the hopeful outcome of making corporate censorship and monopoly of mobile computing a crazy thing of the past, the worst outcome being that things stay the same. Literally free entertainment.

Its in the license, it's not reckless. And like others said, only dismissed because of structure. I honestly dont think they wanted it to go this far. They obviously smelled blood in the water after hey.com and wanted a sweetheart deal, expecting to meet in the middle after demanding their own app store. They mobilized their users like Hey.com did and took action at the same time. But in reality they have very little standing, and Apple is apparently willing to lose some fortnite revenue to defend what has become on of its core businesses.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,909
Good ruling. Epic's antagonistic behavior isn't rewarded but Apple's punitive overreach is blocked. Best outcome really.
 

Wise

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,228
So is it over? What was the point of all this then. Epic was clearly going to lose. I buy Apple for their wall garden. As with PlayStation and the rest
 

Cactuar

Banned
Nov 30, 2018
5,878
Epic: Hey we're doing great! Fortnite, everyone loves UE, money coming out of our asses, a popular online storefont, and plenty of that cell phone money!

Also Epic: Let's try to fuck all that up!
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,146
Finland
So is it over? What was the point of all this then. Epic was clearly going to lose. I buy Apple for their wall garden. As with PlayStation and the rest
No, it's not over yet.

From the OP:

But U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers's ruling late Monday wasn't a total loss for Epic, as she granted the company's request for a temporary order blocking Apple from limiting the game developer's ability to provide Unreal Engine, key graphics technology, for other apps.

This was just an initial block while the lawsuit will go on.

edit:
And anyway, there are plenty of things how Apple could change without losing their walled garden for you.
 

dep9000

Banned
Mar 31, 2020
5,401
Good for Epic. Removing the unreal engine was clearly retaliatory. Apple should be penalized further for this shit. Isn't retaliatory actions like this an unfair business practice? I hope Epic brings another suit against Apple for this. They clearly are entitled to some compensation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,524
Funny how people are acting like the judge agrees with their view just because they made a procedural decision and not one based on the actual substance of the legal issues or facts.
 

SpottieO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,607
So basically, Apple fell in Epic's trap and provided a clear example of reckless retaliation to be used in the real trial. A behavior Apple was specifically asked about in the recent antitrust hearings.

At no point the UE licence was at any risk, even if the dual company move didn't work they are one step from turning off the Fortnite transactions (which I expect will happen once the story becomes old news and the trial starts proper). At this point the transactions are still up because it's generating lots of good buzz.

I think Apple should really start taking this trial seriously, Epic is no pushover indie company nor desperately dependent on iOS and unlike similar cases they can't be scared into obedience with one flick, and Epic has clearly shown that when they want to kill a monopoly they put their money where it hurts (see Steam) regardless of what people and partners say or think.

Again, it's two horrible companies fighting, with the hopeful outcome of making corporate censorship and monopoly of mobile computing a crazy thing of the past, the worst outcome being that things stay the same. Literally free entertainment.
err no? Your conclusions seem totally divorced from what happened. The judge seems to agree that Apple might have the authority to ban the UE license they just need to provide more evidence than they were able to for the TRO.

and lol at saying Apple needs to take this more seriously when you consider how Epic has acted.
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,662
Boston, MA
From the article:

Of the 2.2 million apps available on the App Store, the 30% fee is billed to more than 350,000. Apple reduces the fee to 15% after a consumer uses a subscription for more than a year.

By the way, what is this 15% for? The developers after subscribing as iOS developer for more than a year, or for developers whose consumer bases have bought subscriptions for more than a year, such that they will get 15%, otherwise get 30%?
 

Nostradamus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,280
Funny how people are acting like the judge agrees with their view just because they made a procedural decision and not one based on the actual substance of the legal issues or facts.
That's exactly what I was thinking. People calling it a "good ruling" or congratulating the judge just because they agree with the decision even though it was purely professional.

Also as far as Apple's move to ban UE goes, even though it was probably retaliation, from what I understand Epic is also highly responsible for the way they tie developer accounts to their main UE business (or sth like that) thus exposing developers to such moves. Essentially, it proves that Epic knew beforehand all the ramifications of their move and were betting on using developers against Apple.

In addition, in case people didn't understand, the judge ruled not only that Apple can ban Fortnite but also ban anything first party UE related, just not third party use of UE.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,252
I've had nothing but hate for Epic for the past couple years.

But you people and your too big too fail rhetoric are going over-board. What Apple was attempting to do with UE was way worse than anything MS ever did at the height of their evilness (and which constantly got them in trouble with the government). This isn't about too big too fail. This is about saying that monopolies have a certain public contract not to be complete assholes with their abuse of said powers... and if they are, then it's time for government intervention.
 

Gaardus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,591
So, assuming Fortnite comes back on Apple's store using said store's billing system. Will Unreal Engine cost more from now on?
Fortnite was already using Apple's billing system except on the day it got pulled from the App Store. I don't see why going back to the way things were two weeks ago would prompt a price increase on Unreal Engine.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
From the article:



By the way, what is this 15% for? The developers after subscribing as iOS developer for more than a year, or for developers whose consumer bases have bought subscriptions for more than a year, such that they will get 15%, otherwise get 30%?
The latter.
You subscribe to netflix for a year, Apple get 30%, you subscribe for a second year, Apple get 15%. It's a change they rolled out to get Amazon Prime on board for Apple TV stuff.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Funny how people are acting like the judge agrees with their view just because they made a procedural decision and not one based on the actual substance of the legal issues or facts.
Yes, but some people cared more about this aspect of the case more than the actual legal issue of the case itself. And it's still a decision. There's no procedural ruling that judges have to allow Unreal to keep going. The judge chose to make the companies do something one way. People agree with that choice, regardless of how the rest of everything else may go down.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
Given what was presented about the structure of the company, it makes sense to me that the TRO would be granted for Unreal Engine.

Based on the info we got on the company which Unreal Engine was published under however I think Epic is in a very challenging position though; it does not seem like it will be a challenging argument to put forth that they're the same company (the separate developer fees seems to me like the best argument in favour that they're distinct accounts).

Although it temporarily removes the risk from third parties, I can see this being a very significant risk for developers using the Unreal Engine on iOS as this progresses, and would not be surprised if there was a massively decreased confidence in the viability of Unreal Engine given the risk which remains (not to mention any other risk Epic adds).
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
That's reasonable as a temporary order until this all gets worked out.
However I don't think that Epic should be free from consequences for their actions because they technically published Fortnite under a separate legal entity than the one they used for publishing Unreal Engine.
Unreal Engine should not be considerd "too big to fail", and developers should be prepared for the possibility that support will disappear from Apple devices once this is concluded.
Unreal Engine is logically too big to fail. It would be a massive loss for Apple to actually stop future updates.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
Unreal Engine is logically too big to fail. It would be a massive loss for Apple to actually stop future updates.
Gaming is a comparatively small portion of Apple's business as far as I can find. The latest info I can find is that in 2018, gaming revenue accounted for approximately $9.45 billion in revenue in 2018, out of a total of $265.5 billion reported revenue in 2018.

Although they won't want to lose billions in revenue if it can be avoided, I'd be certain that for Apple, their ability to enforce their Terms of Service is worth significantly more than their total mobile gaming revenue (and obviously games developed using Unreal Engine accounts for some percentage of this, but alternatives also exist for developers for future development).