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Oct 25, 2017
4,717
So i think his general assessment of the pain points of elden ring wasn't totally wrong, but there are a few areas where I think he either treats the problem as too egregious or comes up with an incorrect solution that doesn't properly identify the actual root of the problem.

Like for example when it comes to exploration rewards / reward structure, he correctly states that a lot of the things you find in the mini dungeons or out in the field while exploring will be useless for a lot of players. Especially because people who play these games generally go into them with an idea of how they want to build their character.

I'd say he's right, but it's not as grave of a problem as he makes it out to be because this has been completely true for EVERY SOULS GAME lmao. You likely don't even get stuff your build can use from boss souls / remembrances and that shit's not optional.

He also says this makes tons of mini dungeons and side content irrelevant on following play throughs but again, this has been true SINCE DEMON'S SOULS. In subsequent play throughs of Demon's Souls you don't bother with the black skeleton in 4-1 if you're not trying to get the Crescent Falchion. Just like in Elden Ring you don't bother with getting past Lansseax if you don't want the Greatshield Talisman.

Like wise when he says that there aren't enough reward types because everything's a spell or a equipment piece but honestly I think from soft found some ridiculously clever ways to create rewards without handing things out piece meal like getting heart containers (which you still have anyway in the form of golden seeds). They created things like the ashes of war system. Now you can find weapon abilities that you can put on a lot of weapons. So even melee characters get to enjoy having abilities!

Anderson's solution to the problems he described was having the rewards for exploration be build agnostic stuff like persistent stat increases, random collectables for torrent and a bunch of really shitty collectible ideas that basically make exploration go from "oh cool i got a new thing i wonder if i can use it" to "fuck i wonder if the thing i need to complete the set of torrent sprint boosts is in there"

BUT LIKE

I don't think the gripes he was describing are a reward structure problem it's a play flexibility problem. If you're playing a great sword wielding high STR character and you find an interesting spell, you can't easily decide "oh I want to try that out!"

Especially because the deeper you get into the game the harder it becomes to experiment with your tool kit. When you have 20 str and 20 dex it's much easier to just decide you want to try out a full on STR weapon than it is when you have 20 str and 50 dex. In one instance you're not really wasting many stats in the other you're straight up losing a third of the levels most players will realistically get. Also side note by Elden Ring has THE CRAZIEST stat requirements for any souls game I have ever seen, like several weapons / spells with 40-60 req in a single stat. That's a lot of stat investment.

Therefore, I think the root of the problem is actually that elden ring presents you with seemingly limitless variety but doesn't exactly give you the avenues to explore it. Sure there is respeccing and yeah there are like 18 larval tears per play through, but I think either making respeccing become permanently available from the site of grace whenever you want or from a more attainable item like rune arcs would've been MUCH better.

Those random rewards you get in the wild that just sit in your inventory unused suddenly become things you can go back, respec and play around with!

That's it, that's what I think the solution to this is, free respecs all the time (or after rennala to keep it thematic)

You're already limited by upgrade materials in whether or not you want to invest into a weapon type, why should you be limited in whether or not you want to try it out by the way you chose to distribute your stats too?
 

Grzi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,691
I spent 200 hours in the game without understanding how perfumes work. The tooltips do a terrible job of explaining them, and there is no tutorial for them, is there?

It's just crafting but instead of jars you use perfume bottles, which are a bit more rare since it's really powerful.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,772
BotW shrines were fucking trash. Getting the same fucking item 120 times is awful, and the reward is always in the exact same spot, right at the end. Elden Ring caves can hide useful shit throughout, rewarding you not just for clearing the dungeon but for exploring it, and even if the main reward isn't immediately useful to you, you will get tons of useful crafting materials, runes, or consumables. And then later maybe that main reward will become useful as you change up builds or strategies.
This is true of BOTW too though. Every Shrine has a hidden bonus spoil that you get from exploring, additional puzzling, or breaking the expected structure a bit.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
One of the best games I ever played, but I largely agree with his criticisms, esp the last few bosses

If from wants bosses like that they should add more to what players can do mechanically
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,648
Agreed with a lot in the video but totally agree about the silly hyperbole, YouTuber's could use some chill!

It summed up a lot of my own frustrations with ER, I really loved a lot of my time with it, but that last third highlights it's weaknesses:
  • Lots of recycled content, not a problem on it's own but as JA points out, reusing the "event" bosses in particular lessens their initial impact
  • As it tries to cater to so many play styles AND amount of players/summons/spirit ashes, the boss patterns and tactics to beat them tend to get somewhat samey (so many AOE attacks) and when they try to change the patterns you're more likely to get into a fight or situation where your build won't work(slow melee in particular)
  • The extended length highlights the repeated content
  • The weapon upgrade system somewhat punishes creativity due to the cost of upgrading weapons and the power differential from swapping from a upgraded weapon to a new one
  • Malenia, screw that combo and the life steal against a blocked attack, the only boss I thought "wow this needs a patch"🥷
I found most recycled content tolerable, but definitely agree with reusing the main bosses (so godrick, and Mohg reuse) was lame.

I literally found 0 instances where slow melee wouldnt work. Giant hammers are fucking stronk.

Yea maybe trimmer an area or 2 would've been good, but at the same time there was never an instance where I wasn't in awe of the world design.

This is a complaint I don't hear much that I actually agree with. Weapon freedom is awesome, but it can be a hindrance with the upgrade system. You dont get the bell bearings for smithing stones until well after you've already been finding some of them. So you might have a somber weapon to +7, but you can't get another somber weapon up to the same without clearing a major boss cuz you are out of findable stones and you haven't unlocked the ability to buy them. It definitely restricts you on pivoting strategy for a hard boss.

Malenia is dope, but that combo despite being mostly fair, its way to obtuse on how to deal with. Healing on block is fine, her health overall is quite low and shes easily poise broken.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
It's just crafting but instead of jars you use perfume bottles, which are a bit more rare since it's really powerful.

No, that isn't it. The perfume bottles get refunded after you use the item, which is a totally unique mechanic. I don't think that is described at all in the game.

Perfume bottles aren't technically a reagent, they are a refunded vessel. Make Your Own Flask Mechanic #2, except limited by other crafting items rather than a bonfire refresh.

Or is that how Pots work as well? Not described in the game at all like that.
 

Grzi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,691
One of the best games I ever played, but I largely agree with his criticisms, esp the last few bosses

If from wants bosses like that they should add more to what players can do mechanically

They did add a ton of stuff, for example look at my post on perfumes on the previous page.

It's just that the game doesn't explicitly tell you "perfumes are craftable but much more powerful than regular craftable items" and expects you to play around with it by yourself.

I am certain the majority of players never even touched perfume crafting, and it is super helpful and actually overpowered in some cases.
 

Titanpaul

Member
Jan 2, 2019
5,008
IMO BotW absolutely, by a very long shot.

1. 100% of shrines resulted in receiving something useful and unique to shrines (spirit orbs). The odds of entering a catacomb, cave, or hero's grave and getting something to use for my build was too small, and once the bosses stop giving enough Runes for one level-up they're not a great use of my free time unless I checked a wiki beforehand to see they have something relevant for my build.
2. IMO Hero's Graves are really bad puzzles except one (Gelmir). The enemy layout and level design of most catacombs and caves were very poor (some exceptions, like the one hidden after Radahn), especially when I could be spending that same time in the amazing Legacy Dungeons. I'd prefer it if they just focused on Legacy Dungeons.
3. A personal bias, but I find "copy-paste" puzzles where the solution ends up being different to be a lot more unique or interesting than "the imps are arranged on different walls, we've pulled in one different overworld enemy to pad it out, and this time it's two overworld enemies as the final boss instead of one". ~55% of shrines were puzzle shrines (plus some had their puzzle outside of the shrine) which is a better ratio than the ratio of Catacombs, Caves, and Hero's Graves I found interesting.

Someone who weighs combat and psuedo-random loot (while the loot is not random, without a wiki the experience is) higher than puzzles and not having time wasted might prefer ER's version, but I am not one of them. They were a downgrade by existing compared to DS1,2,3.

Let's agree to disagree here because I found BOTW shrines to be embarrassing. Same art, same music, only a few puzzles, same item at the end.
 

Grzi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,691
No, that isn't it. The perfume bottles get refunded after you use the item, which is a totally unique mechanic. I don't think that is described at all in the game.

Jars get refunded as well. The number of jars you collect equals the number of uses you have, but you don't run out of jars, the number you collect is always there.
It is a new mechanic to Elden Ring, so it's not like in previous Souls games with consumables.

I do agree that it isn't explained very well in the game haha
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,567
As I played Melee all the time so far I dont feel like ER favors it less than prior Souls games tbh.
When you learn the bosses well enough in this you can take them down very quickly with just melee. A big difference is charge/jump attacks generally mattering more than the basic R1 attacks this time. The staggers you can cause are a big thing.
 

Jencks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,454
BotW shrines were fucking trash. Getting the same fucking item 120 times is awful, and the reward is always in the exact same spot, right at the end. Elden Ring caves can hide useful shit throughout, rewarding you not just for clearing the dungeon but for exploring it, and even if the main reward isn't immediately useful to you, you will get tons of useful crafting materials, runes, or consumables. And then later maybe that main reward will become useful as you change up builds or strategies.
Most hilariously ERA comment of all time

There's like 5 Elden ring mini dungeons even worth doing. Meanwhile there's a stronger argument that every shrine is collectively more useful
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
Jars get refunded as well. The number of jars you collect equals the number of uses you have, but you don't run out of jars, the number you collect is always there.
It is a new mechanic to Elden Ring, so it's not like in previous Souls games with consumables.

I do agree that it isn't explained very well in the game haha

Ah, goddamn. Way too subtle to really. Crazy. Most people are inadvertently playing the game on a harder difficulty by neglecting a core mechanic, then.
 

empo

Member
Jan 27, 2018
3,112
the crafting system was absolutely not needed
clogs up the world with more random crap to loot

5ldf35w1zhr81.jpg
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,892
Jars get refunded as well. The number of jars you collect equals the number of uses you have, but you don't run out of jars, the number you collect is always there.
It is a new mechanic to Elden Ring, so it's not like in previous Souls games with consumables.

I do agree that it isn't explained very well in the game haha
wait so firebombs type items can now refill?
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,567
He also says this makes tons of mini dungeons and side content irrelevant on following play throughs but again, this has been true SINCE DEMON'S SOULS. In subsequent play throughs of Demon's Souls you don't bother with the black skeleton in 4-1 if you're not trying to get the Crescent Falchion. Just like in Elden Ring you don't bother with getting past Lansseax if you don't want the Greatshield Talisman.
This is a positive point for me. It's more interesting knowing where you can find certain things so you don't have to repeat everything if you don't want to. And you can quickly go for certain builds if you want in Elden Ring in particular.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
This is a positive point for me. It's more interesting knowing where you can find certain things so you don't have to repeat everything if you don't want to. And you can quickly go for certain builds if you want in Elden Ring in particular.

I completely agree! Part of the fun of replaying these games fresh instead of continuing to NG+ is planning your route to create the build you want to play as quickly as possible!
 

Grzi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,691
Tomb dungeons give upgrade mats for spirit ashes.
Mine dungeons give upgrade mats for weapons.

How is that useless lmao?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
the crafting system was absolutely not needed
clogs up the world with more random crap to loot

5ldf35w1zhr81.jpg

I think it is a good system that gives the players lots of different playstyles and powers, and makes ranged builds that aren't magic based a lot more feasible. But like that meme gets at, they totally and vastly overestimate the excitement from different crafting materials.
 

Grzi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,691
Agreed. Was a pretty big miss, in my opinion. Lots of really unhelpful items that need tons of useless pickups in the world.

There are a lot of useful items there, and again, it's not like you have to do it.

And again, I need to stress how useful and powerful perfumes are, once you are able to craft them.
 

empo

Member
Jan 27, 2018
3,112
In my 120 hours, I only crafted boluses. And the one I needed the most required a resource that seemed to be the most limited in the world. LOL
let me guess for rot
could only craft like 5 when I got to the lake, searched a bit and people were dead ass recommending to farm them in some random cave like I'm playing WoW or something
safe to say I just ran through it instead

I think it is a good system that gives the players lots of different playstyles and powers, and makes ranged builds that aren't magic based a lot more feasible. But like that meme gets at, they totally and vastly overestimate the excitement from different crafting materials.
you mean for arrows? shot like 3 total but yeah I've heard you can run out fast
I didn't like crafting them in Horizon either, there's gotta be a better way
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
The whole argument of "Elden Ring isn't actually Dark Souls 4" is a pure semantics debate and the only reason it's being fixated on at all is to handwave grievances that uniquely apply to Elden Ring despite having an iterated form of traditional Souls mechanics. It's really not worth splitting hairs about that argument; Elden Ring is a Souls game in all but name, and it's closer to being a Souls game more than Bloodborne or Sekiro ever were, which means the problems it faces aren't the same problems the other games do. Those comparisons can be implied in their colloquial terms because it's the best reference point for how From have made games that were better at handling issues that some find Elden Ring runs into a lot more in comparison, but even if that weren't the case, those cracks still exist when taken in isolation.

There's a far more transparent sense within Elden Ring that certain build qualities are inherently more disadvantaged with the way enemies and bosses are designed. Souls may have always had these in less explicit fashion as "magic is the secret easy mode" has long been the common belief with Souls games, and it's true that you can never maintain perfectly balanced equilibrium among builds that are so different. But magic being very strong in Elden Ring is still something that rings true, if not more than ever, so whether particular Souls strategies are effective or not is something that comes across as purely arbitrary. When many of Elden Ring's bosses are so abundant with hyper damaging anime combo attacks, AoEs, and super tiny vulnerability windows, there's a fair case to be made that the available offensive/defensive mechanics are pretty limited in fully enabling certain types of builds, and is why some strategies like jump attacks have become dominant strategies. Previous games didn't quite devolve into that, though some had already predicted that the writing was on the wall several games ago, and that this would've been the natural conclusion to FromSoft's design as bosses continue with these kinds of templates.

Elden Ring isn't "Dark Souls 4", people are technically right about that. It's something that, depending on how you played those games, is a lot less polished and less fun. I can't blame people for that, because on the surface the game wants to enable that kind of traditional playstyle seen in those games as well. Purely objectively speaking, I don't doubt for a second that the builds people are complaining about are actually viable to beat the game with, just as I'm sure there's people out there who like to speedrun the game by wrong warping to the endgame. At the end of the day it's about what people will find fun to play. Me personally, I was having fun with my STR build until I realized the boss design was pushing the limits of my patience, upon which I respeced and altered my entire playstyle. I kept on playing and still maintained some fun, but I kind of wish I didn't resort to having to do that though.
It is not a pure semantics debate at all. There are significant differences that means you need to engage with ER on its own terms - all the specific tc ways it is designed and balanced that differ from DS - or you will run into frustrarion unless you can brute force the differences with pure.mechanical skill.

The expectation that you can play exactly as you did in Dark Souls and expect the exact same results is just bizzare.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
They did add a ton of stuff, for example look at my post on perfumes on the previous page.

It's just that the game doesn't explicitly tell you "perfumes are craftable but much more powerful than regular craftable items" and expects you to play around with it by yourself.

I am certain the majority of players never even touched perfume crafting, and it is super helpful and actually overpowered in some cases.

Throwing or using items isn't adding much mechanically imo I mean like movement i.e. jump dodging as in sekiro
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
let me guess for rot
could only craft like 5 when I got to the lake, searched a bit and people were dead ass recommending to farm them in some random cave like I'm playing WoW or something
safe to say I just ran through it instead


you mean for arrows? shot like 3 total but yeah I've heard you can run out fast
I didn't like crafting them in Horizon either, there's gotta be a better way

Ideally, they'd just make arrows be stackable and refresh at bonfires like Ninja skills and Onmyoji in the Nioh games. Consumables, even craftables, are repeatedly a dumb mechanic in these games. Just link all of it to the bonfire gameplay loop. Flasks, Spells, Arrows, Projectiles, whatever.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,332
SĂŁo Paulo - Brazil
HIs analysis of Malenia's fight is spot on. I left that fight with the exact same feeling, you don't fight Malenia, you fight her special move. It dictates how you approach the fight and will always be a priority in your mind.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
Tomb dungeons give upgrade mats for spirit ashes.
Mine dungeons give upgrade mats for weapons.

How is that useless lmao?
Also runs amd simple mechanics and combat experience, both of which are highly valuable in these games.

Not a joke. As Anderson highlights most of the mini dungeon rewards are useless. The only thing I can think of worth doing is the small few mines just to get smithing stones.
Nonsense though.

Weapon upgrades, spirit upgrades, runes, crafting materials, pure gameplay experience, drops from enemies, AND the reward for bearing the boss.

They are fulll of useful rewards.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,892
This is a positive point for me. It's more interesting knowing where you can find certain things so you don't have to repeat everything if you don't want to. And you can quickly go for certain builds if you want in Elden Ring in particular.
I think it makes some legacy dungeons hilarious, you can basically just skip them all...but open world works so well for people who play these games a lot, you basically just get too choose which talismans/weapons you want and off you go
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,648
Also runs amd simple mechanics and combat experience, both of which are highly valuable in these games.


Nonsense though.

Weapon upgrades, spirit upgrades, runes, crafting materials, pure gameplay experience, drops from enemies, AND the reward for bearing the boss.

They are fulll of useful rewards.
this isn't even getting intoother random rewards (Raven's armor from random corpse in sage's cave. Dragon Communion Seal on random corpse in Forgotten Hero's Tomb). Theres rewards everywhere in these dungeons.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
Not a joke. As Anderson highlights most of the mini dungeon rewards are useless. The only thing I can think of worth doing is the small few mines just to get smithing stones.

Ball bearings, the smithing stones themselves, summons, summon upgrades, jars and perfume bottles, new weapons, talismans. Some of the best casting seals and talismans come from those side dungeons. The +75 discovery talisman, +20% rune talisman, the +flask regen talisman, and so on. The entire secret zone and legacy dungeon requires two of them in particular, so those definitely aren't worthless.

Saying there are only a few worth doing is reductionist garbage.
 
Last edited:

Nere

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,147
Most hilariously ERA comment of all time

There's like 5 Elden ring mini dungeons even worth doing. Meanwhile there's a stronger argument that every shrine is collectively more useful
He is kinda right though. The fact that the reward for every single shrine was the exact same, killed my interest in exploring them. I never thought "I wonder what I will find here" because I knew exactly what I will find there. At least in Elden ring I don't know what I will find and plus I will get some nice souls anyway, even if the reward is shit.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,772
It is not a pure semantics debate at all. There are significant differences that means you need to engage with ER on its own terms - all the specific tc ways it is designed and balanced that differ from DS - or you will run into frustrarion unless you can brute force the differences with pure.mechanical skill.

The expectation that you can play exactly as you did in Dark Souls and expect the exact same results is just bizzare.
You're burying the lede by, again, getting hung up on the semantics of whether Elden Ring is "Dark Souls" or not. You can't have it both ways and say "well of course things that didn't work in Souls wouldn't work in ER" when certain design truths about Souls like magic/ranged being extremely powerful is still true in Elden Ring, if not enforced by how bosses make certain melee builds extremely punishing. Even if it wasn't a more than fair comparison, this is true regardless of whether you view Elden Ring in a vacuum. Whether or not you can compromise on ways to enable those build types to work, it still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do not find engaging with those mechanics nearly as enjoyable as its spiritual predecessors which had already solved these issues in more elegant ways, usually because all of it is a consequence of the boss/enemy design.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,359
Let's agree to disagree here because I found BOTW shrines to be embarrassing. Same art, same music, only a few puzzles, same item at the end.
Three looks with zero songs is definitely different from one look with one song, I'll give ER that for sure.

But I'll absolutely take 4 shrines that contain "same item at the end" over 4 catacombs containing "spells and ashes you'll never touch this build".
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
You're burying the lede by, again, getting hung up on the semantics of whether Elden Ring is "Dark Souls" or not. You can't have it both ways and say "well of course things that didn't work in Souls wouldn't work in ER" when certain design truths about Souls like magic/ranged being extremely powerful is still true in Elden Ring, and enforced by how bosses make certain melee builds extremely punishing. Even if it wasn't a more than fair comparison, this is true regardless of whether you view Elden Ring in a vacuum. Whether or not you can compromise on ways to enable those build types to work, it still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do not find engaging with those mechanics nearly as enjoyable as its spiritual predecessors which had already solved these issues in more elegant ways.
No I'm not lol, it is not semantics at all... I have explained why, a few times.

There being some similar mechanics doesn't have any bearing to the fact that there are lots of ways the game is balanced around new mechanics too. Just because you can use similar builds to Dark Souls, just because it has a lot of similar design language and aspects, doesn't mean you can apply them inexactly the same way due to the aforementioned differences.

This is a different game...

The mechanical differences and balances are significant. Trying to play this just like Souls will lead to self impose frustration unless you're a very experienced player who can persist and win despite this. And even then it might frustrate you (I've seen a few rl1 style players express firstration and the differences between the games).

That is the opposite of semantics. There are specific, significant, varied differences that lead to ER needing to be approached on its own terms.

If you refuse to do that, and then moan that you can't play it just like Souls... you're doing that to yourself entirely by being stubborn about these differences.

The fact that some people don't find these mechanics enjoyable is beside the point. This is NOT Souls, and if you don't like the game because you cannot play it exactly like Souls.... That is also absolutely fair, but any frustrarions you experience because you stubbornly try despite this are entirely on you.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
Not sure what the big deal is about reading inputs in a game like this
At first I found this really annoying. Then I took a look a the encounters and figured out when I could manipulate the AI and create safe spaces to heal.

I ended up really liking this beacuse it added a layer of depth to encounters that I needed to engage with.

You can also often use the environment for this. In one of the Godskin battles, for example, there are smalll trees you can stand behind to heal to block the input read projectile it fires when you do. This allows you massive safe window via simple reading of the environment and positioning.

There is always a way to consistantly create space to heal.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707

Don't need them 95% of the time. Either I can buy them or else they're almost always too low level for me to get use out of them. I don't think people do enough weapon switching to justify the amount of redundant stones you get tbh. I have leveled and tried out more weapons in one playthrough in ER than any other souls games, and I'm still sitting on a fuckton of +7 stones and below because wtf am I gonna upgrade? My daggers?


Same deal as weapons. I have mimic and maybe I'll try out Tiche and Lhutel, but honestly, I'm only leveling to do something with all the glovewarts I'm otherwise doing sweet fuck all with.


You get runes for doing anything and everything.


I'm sure that's useful for people who craft. That's not me tho.

pure gameplay experience
lmao, yeah, sure, killing skeletons and gargoyle imps for the 1625436453 time is the height of sheer souls gameplay action, woooooooo

From common enemies that aren't carrying anything good 99% of the time and can be gotten elsewhere in the world.

AND the reward for bearing the boss.
Yeah, I love getting rewarded Ashes I'll never use because Mimic and a handful of others are already the best by an overwhelming degree.


I don't even hate doing dungeons, I like checking them off for the sheer sake of checking them off as part of my playthrough, but y'all are high if you think there's any tangible reward for playing them the vast majority of the time.

You do the dungeons because it's part of the open world checklist to fill out. Sometimes, rarely, maybe you'll get a cool boss fight or a reward out of it if you get really, really lucky. But most of the time not.
 
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