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I can't see "fake xmen" being a thing, at least not when the real ones would still be very much a thing and VERY INTERESTED in not having clones wandering around. Jean in particular due to the maddy pryor thing.
(The replacements for long dead mutants though? Different ball of wax)
If your position is "that's a fake xavier" then you need to account for where the real (and extremely powerful) one has been for 5 months.
If your position is "thats a fake jean/cyclops/etc" you need to account for where the real ones are.
And Xmen are notoriously hard to kill.
More likely scenario is that since we know X is in a morally grey area dancing very close to villainy where Xavier *generally* wasn't, that he's doing some very questionable things and is manipulating the X-men to get there. This would explain "never taking cerebro off" better than "that big X hat is a disguise for someone else."
Does he look like the Maker? Sure does. But using that obvious parallel to imply that this Xavier is not a benign entity is a lot less hamfisted than "it's the maker under there in disguise."
This is Hickman's masterwork designed to reposition the X books for the next 30 years, not some hastily assembled nonsense from fanfiction.net
Hell I'm expecting something alone the lines that they willingly went into the pods for some reason and were reborn with some sort of new gene or something.
Thank you SO much! I actually dropped comics at about the exact same time and I decided to dive back in with this Hickman run. I can't wait to find out what the deal with Xavier is going to be.
The lowercase font confuses me a bit.
This is not what it looks like.
Powers of X will have some answers I hope.
This is not what it looks like.
Powers of X will have some answers I hope.
Hahaha, my mind would melt. I don't think they're charging $6 for issue 2, though, so that seems unlikely! Marvel ain't giving anything away for cheap.
Yeah, this one is super suspicious.
The only people that don't sound or look off right now are anti-heroes like Cyclops, Emma or Magneto. But that's because you expect them to be assholes.
Missed this yesterday, but it's the last time I'll address it. we're talking in Circles. The Red Onslaught business in AXIS makes it crystal clear that Onslaught was JUST Xavier. Bits of Magneto's psyche may have pushed Xavier towards it during the original saga, but Red Skull has 0% of Magneto within him when he shifted to Red Onslaught. It was 100% Xavier's powers and no one else.
Inverting Red Onslaught (which was the only way to stop him) turned it back into Xavier in Red Skull's body.
Onslaught is Xavier, and will happen if Xavier's powers are fully unleashed.
The difference between your examples and the onslaught business is that Xavier as Onslaught was so far past everyone else that it simply isn't in the same discussion. Planetary level mindcontrol while dominating two omega level telepaths with ease- and that was with Red Skull who had all of Xavier's power but NONE of his decades of skill. The "skill" argument works for explanations as to why weaker telepaths occasionally win out over stronger ones, such as Emma vs. Rachel Grey, but Skull only had Xavier's powers for a couple of weeks and nearly murdered everyone with it. It was raw power with absolutely no subtletly.
The Original Onslaught murdered every X-man there was in a single shot, slapped around three Omegas and stole their powers with ease. None of them could come close to stopping him and that was the point of that storyline. Against Onslaught, everybody died. Bishop interfering via time travel prevented this from happening.
The Xmen had to bring in Thor and a fully unleashed Banner to even have a prayer of coming close to stopping Onslaught, and those two were killed in the process. There is no other telepath that has ever hit the levels Xavier did as Onslaught, or Red Skull did as Red Onslaught. They are far and away past every telepathic feat ever pulled by Jean, Psylocke, Emma, Rachel, etc.
Red Onslaught which was ONLY Xavier's powers and no one else's easily mentally dominated Quire, O5 Jean, Dr. Strange, Loki, Enchantress, Dr. Doom, and the rest of the planet while fighting off a dozen other heroes and villains at the same time. And all of them would have lost if not for a spell cast by Doom and Scarlet Witch. Strange would have cast it, but Onslaught mind controlled Strange into BFR'ing himself to god knows where to eliminate his interference. There is no version of Jean that's ever been that OP. It's on another tier completely.
For the last time for the people in the back, The Phoenix is a separate entity and not a part of Jean's telepathic ability, *which is what we're discussing here*. Jean explicitly says that permanently severing herself from the Phoenix allows her to explore limits of her telepathy she was afraid to previously. It's not part of her powerset there. And yet, this much more powerful jean with all the restraints gone STILL got mindwiped with ease by X.
Onslaught on the other hand is nothing but Xavier with all restraint gone. The two aren't comparable.
Xavier is the more powerful of the two as a telepath and it is not close at present.
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yeah and even then with Scott and Mags you can feel something sinister brewing because of how chill they were in the face of opposition. I mean, yeah, Mags had some epic flexes on the ambassadors but he seemed pretty content to just talk shit and stick with the plan, same with Scott, so we know whatever the plan is satisfies both of them to the point that they're ok showing some restraint in the immediate-term because they have faith in their long-term. Scott happily leaving Sabretooth with the FF to deal with some other time in some other way was revealing. dude has a stare down with Reed only the shrug his shoulders and cede? nah
fuckery is afoot
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if that Sabretooth is a clone and expendable- Sabretooth should be dead after that business in War of Realms, and Sinister used to clone him constantly along with the rest of the marauders.
I agree with your overall point but Sabertooth getting fucked didn't really bother me. I took it as Scott conceding it because in the grand scheme of things, Creed's fate is inconsequential compared to whatever they have brewing. And this sends the message to every former evil mutant to keep a low profile because that kind of needless violence doesn't help them further their goals. That's pretty much what Mystique was implying earlier. To put it differently, amnesty or not, if you're a fucking moron, we'll let you hang out to dry.
That's how I saw it too. And it makes me wonder the long term goal is going to be pretty twisted int hat sense.
The Ultimate universe was shown to have been rebuilt (sans Miles and other characters taken to 616, although 616 Miles then went there) at the end of Spider-men 2. No one else has acknowledged it since then though.
true, yeah I haven't read War of the Realms yet
this was pretty much the point I was making, that the grand scheme of things is satisfying characters like Scott and Mags
This is incorrect. That was not the Utimate Universe, only an homage to it.
edit: to put this one to bed, Marvel has been pretty clear the Ultimate Universe is gone.
The Maker is in 616 (he's in all universes now because of something Molecule Man did, it's a complicated explanation) and confirmed himself that 1610 was dead. He brought back all of the Ultimates during the (616)Ultimates2 series sans Ultimate Thor, and killed Ultimate Captain America to make a point when Cap objected to his plans for them.
Ultimate Thor wasn't brought back because his hammer survived Secret Wars and transitioned over to 616, where it's a significant part of the plot of Aaron's Thor. That Hammer transforms Volstagg into the "War Thor," but basically drives him insane because the universe it came from (1610) is dead, and the hammer is obsessed with vengeance. It was destroyed by Mangog and the remnants of it were used to turn Jane Foster into Valkyrie.
The 1610 Marauders and Jimmy Hudson were brought over during X-men Blue. Miss Sinister found them "floating in the space between dimensions" and confirmed once again that their universe is dead. All of them sans Hudson were killed off during that series.
The universe that 616 Miles wandered into still had Ultimate Cap and Thor wandering around when that was impossible, Had Ironheart as a member of the Ultimates (which again, not a thing that exists in 1610), Had a much older parker who had a daughter with MJ, and it was explicitly a universe that never had a Miles Morales counterpart. It wasn't 1610, just Bendis throwing in an homage to fans while giving 616 Miles a happy ending. As Bendis has left Marvel, you won't see it again.
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Is there any source for that? I've actually seen some people saying that a few times here, but never any sources for it, and couldn't find anything on Google. The wikis list it as the Ultimate Universe too, so if it's not they need to be updated.
It never made any sense that it was erased either. Every single universe got destroyed, but then they were rebuilt. Why wouldn't the Ultimate universe get brought back storywise?
Speculation time about the words, words, WORDS in the door
Or maybe I'm thinking too much about it and it's just a mistake
Let's start by saying: it says GALM. 100%
It's four symbols that we've already seen, ever since way back in the "XMEN MARAUDERS EXCALIBUR XFORCE FALLEN ANGELS NEW MUTANTS" teaser so it's pretty much confirmed. It's a G and an A and an L and then an M. I checked. It says GALM. But GALM is not a word.
At least not a word in the English language. But that's not English. That's mutant language. The Stepford Cuccoo says so. If it were just English in a different font, would that be a new language? No. Hickman has been thinking about all the aspects like finances and territorial distribution and all that so I doubt he'd think up such a half-baked "language"
But the teasers and the stuff at the end of the issue are in English, right? Yes, because that's stuff a human has written for other humans. Hickman has written it for us. But the stuff on the doors was written by Krakoa, for other mutants to read. The teasers are in English, the Doors are in Mutant Language.
So what does it mean? Who the hell knows. It's a new language and we've only seen one word. Maybe it's a country, or maybe it's a planet. Or something else. In English it's "Netherlands", in Spanish it's "Países Bajos", maybe in Mutant it's "Galm". In English it's "Moon", in Spanish it's "Luna", maybe in Mutant it's "Galm".
I doubt it's an acronym, it could be, but I think it's just a name.
It's four symbols that we've already seen, ever since way back in the "XMEN MARAUDERS EXCALIBUR XFORCE FALLEN ANGELS NEW MUTANTS" teaser so it's pretty much confirmed. It's a G and an A and an L and then an M. I checked. It says GALM. But GALM is not a word.
At least not a word in the English language. But that's not English. That's mutant language. The Stepford Cuccoo says so. If it were just English in a different font, would that be a new language? No. Hickman has been thinking about all the aspects like finances and territorial distribution and all that so I doubt he'd think up such a half-baked "language"
But the teasers and the stuff at the end of the issue are in English, right? Yes, because that's stuff a human has written for other humans. Hickman has written it for us. But the stuff on the doors was written by Krakoa, for other mutants to read. The teasers are in English, the Doors are in Mutant Language.
So what does it mean? Who the hell knows. It's a new language and we've only seen one word. Maybe it's a country, or maybe it's a planet. Or something else. In English it's "Netherlands", in Spanish it's "Países Bajos", maybe in Mutant it's "Galm". In English it's "Moon", in Spanish it's "Luna", maybe in Mutant it's "Galm".
I doubt it's an acronym, it could be, but I think it's just a name.
Or maybe I'm thinking too much about it and it's just a mistake
I edited my answer above.
From an editorial perspective, Marvel doesn't have any use for 1610. It was meant to be a "much simpler" universe readers could easily jump into without worrying about the backstory that came with 616. After a couple of decades, that was no longer the case. 1610 was just as complex to get into as 616 was.
From a sales perspective, not much of it outside of Spider-Man really sold that well, and the Miles Morales books only had middling sales compared to the mainstream Parker books. Running an "ultimate" X-men, "ultimate" Avengers, etc titles alongside the 616 ones no longer made financial or narrative sense.
Marvel rolled the characters they considered salvageable into 616, and gave 1610 an official sendoff during the Ultimate End books during Secret Wars. (don't read these, they're REALLY terrible).
edit: 616 being rebuilt makes narrative sense, because those who were rebuilding the universe (reed, molecule man, franklin) were from there in the first place, and rebuilt their "home" (though not precisely as it was- there are significant changes and 616 as we knew it remains dead). Every other universe was not rebuilt "as is", it's a different multiverse with different rules- that was the point of Secret Wars. Let go of the old, but use it as inspiration.
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Willingly using Reed Richard's kid to taunt him feels like a bad decision tbh.
It seems like Scott is for some reason betting that Franklin will care more about his Mutant genes then being with his actual family.
Or Scott may be aware of coming changes for the mutant population that may not leave Franklin with an alternative.
I didn't look, that's why I asked. I don't listen to any comic podcasts! :)
All universes were destroyed and recreated though, so none of that contradicts it. Anything that somehow survived through Secret Wars would be from a dead universe. Reed and crew were also still recreating the universes at that time of those events, only stopping with the recent Fantastic Four on-going, so a recreated Ultimate still would fit in after those scenes (like Makers' confirmation that it didn't exist).
Also, Ultimate Thor had multiple hammers (in fact, the whole way what is supposed to be "his" hammer has been written post-Secret Wars makes little sense anyway, since they use the design of the one that was supposed to be a tech weapon, but treat it as a true Mjolnir... rather than just using Ult. Thor's actual Mjolnir).
None of that is impossible though (We also don't know he was "much" older, last time we saw him he was eloping with Mary Jane and we don't see his daughter so it could be a baby). And no Miles makes sense since he was removed and his history rewritten to fit him into 616 so it would make sense they wouldn't create a copy there and would just remove him.
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Or Scott is aware that Franklin's powers are declining and that Franklin's pissed about it, and they know that they can offer him something to restore them?
This seems like the "bargaining" stage. Marvel has confirmed 1610 is gone and was not recreated in every way it possibly could have. The Maker exists in ALL dimensions at the same time and shares a conciousness. There is no way for him to be wrong about 1610 being gone. The way Marvel time works the time elapsed between the conclusion of Ultimates2 and the present is a matter of weeks at most.
"Ultimate End" during Secret Wars was the sendoff for that Universe. Ultimate Thor appears during Secret Wars as did much of 1610, and he did not survive the events (though his hammer did).
Make peace with it. You'll likely still see cameos from it pop up here and there.
And yes, Riri wiliiams being present means that Parker would have to be much older. She's about a decade to a decade and a half younger than Parker and Stark.
That wasn't 1610.
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Then what was he?
To me it seemed like he was suggesting Franklin should care more about being a mutant then being with the F4.
And I didn't say that? What I pointed out was how all that happened while Reed was still going around recreating the Multiverse.
But that pseudo(?) Ult. Riri is introduced in the same story where we get a 616 Miles with a completely different age from his Ultimate counterpart, so your argument that their ages need to match makes no sense.
That doesn't mean it's true though. What's certain is that this was hurtful to Reed and Sue, which was probably the main goal here. Even if it turns out to be true.
the conclusion of Ultimates 2 was at most a matter of weeks from the present, given how Marvel Time works. Reed was done by then, and saying "Well, maybe the ultimate universe was created again during those few weeks" isn't plausible.
616 Miles was from a completely different universe than Ultimate Miles, but the age of 616 Miles was similar to 616 Parker. Molecule Man incorporated 1610 Miles in as a favor, thus the age discrepancy between the two.
Riri williams never existed in the Ultimate Universe, and her being present (that armor she runs around in was built by Stark's AI after his death, she couldn't build it on her own, and had no experience to build an AI to run one) means that stark (and thus, parker) must be significantly older than she is. The entire history of 1610 would have to be bizarrely different for Riri to exist- and this also ignores that Utimate Cap is running around there after Maker having resurrected and killed him, and the rest of the Ultimates being in 616, not 1610.
It's not them, because they are canonically elsewhere.
That parker is married with a child that's dating, in any case.
Once again- this is bargaining. 1610 is confirmed gone in Thor, it's confirmed gone in Ultimates, it's confirmed gone in X-men. all of the "but maybe!" is nonsense. Marvel has been clear on this.
OP
OP
its weird that they brought back Jimmy Hudson-and for what? Who cares about him?
They brought back a bunch of 1610 X-men characters only to murder them all literally an issue later.
X-men Blue is....a rather poor book. I don't recommend reading it. But hudson's inclusion was CLEARLY to shoehorn a very hamfisted Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine love triangle between the three (it's commented on a few times) despite how nonsensical the concept is/was.
edit: given what eventually happened to the guy, maybe we'll get lucky and see him killed off in Absolute Carnage.
I think spiderman 2 ending confirming Ulimate Universe is alive is being ignored since that book ruined Miles 616 canon, and in general sucked.
Reed only stopped by the start of the new Fantastic 4 on-going, so your argument is the one that doesn't make sense here. Marvel Time doesn't mean that things don't happen, it just means that characters don't age in real time.
Stark and Parker don't have the same age though, so once again you bring up examples and comparisons that just make no sense. Riri can be younger than Stark and her character is mostly kept. Her age compared to Peter's is irrelevant.
The Ultimates actually left to travel through the multiverse, so ending up back in their world wouldn't be that odd if it was eventually rebuilt. Also, I like how you need to take issue with a specific resurrection rather than the other trillion of off-screen ones involved in the multiverse getting restored.
I just checked that page again and just noticed a big misleading point in your argument. There's no indication that the May they mention there is a daughter at all. It could be Aunt May for all we know (which makes sense since Peter there clearly doesn't look old with his slim built and proportions). So, looking back you seem bizarrely fixated on denying that it's the Ult. Universe.
Except, you know, they clearly showed it to be restored and never stated that it was some other universe, which is why so many places list that as an appearance of the Ultimate Universe. That will continue to be the case until there is official confirmation that the world seen there was something else.
People keep saying that only mutants can go to Krakoa, but was that actually explicitly stated? It was stated that only mutants can go through the gateways, but that doesn't mean a human couldn't just sail up or fly in or whatever.
Marvel Time means that events are severely compressed. It's been 12 years in Marvel Time since Cap was unfrozen, for instance (this was made explicit).
It's been substantially less than a year since the conclusion of Ultimates2 in Marvel time. Aaron's Thor stating that 1610 is a dead universe is even less time than this.
Again, this is all bargaining that ignores Marvel stating flat out that 1610 was gone in three separate books. Believe what you want, but it's not coming back. What you saw was not the Ultimate Universe, and there's no explanation that makes this plausible, sorry. Done with this line of conversation though.
Presumably Krakoa is an inaccessible or unknown location- that's the only thing I can think of that makes sense. There would be no need for all the gateways if you could just charter a flight there.
I mean, sure there is. Teleporting all over the planet and galaxy is a hell of a lot more convenient than flying around in a jet.
My point is that people are saying it's impossible that the Maker could have been there, and I'm saying it's not yet been made clear of that would actually be impossible.
Oh i see what you mean. When people say that's impossible for that to have been the Maker, they're saying that Krakoa can detect who is a mutant and who isn't- it wouldn't be "just" the gateway.
and a "human impostor" charles Xavier doesn't really make much sense. Krakoa aside, there's a dozen or so extremely powerful telepaths, in addition to wolverine and sabretooth as well as Magneto that you'd need to trick in order to convince everyone you were charles Xavier- the most powerful telepath on earth.
That helmet was confirmed by the script to be Cerebro, also- not a mystery helmet. Cerebro doesn't work for humans and barely works for most telepaths. It's charles, there.
inaccessible or unknown to the general population. I.e. it's on the map, but can't be seen or detected due to tech or psychic nonsense. The city of the Eternals was in this state for hundreds of years, for instance.
Right. Maker is elsewhere in the Marvel universe right now. Recently in Venom, and i think someone else posted him appearing in FF shortly. He's not the most subtle guy on earth.