The Krakoa Era of X-Men |OT| Mutant Massacre (Open Spoilers after issues drop)

[Billfisto]

This is nonsensical from start to finish.

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Weird, nothing you've said categorically disproves any of it.

Xavier, Magneto, and Apoc all want to preserve the mutant race. Sinister doesn't and never has, he's just a killer. There's no reason to work with Essex, especially since Apocalypse enslaved him in life 9.

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It's not necessary for Sinister to want to preserve the mutant race for Moira to work with him or for him to know Moira is a mutant/have the ability to bake her power into chimeras. Working with him may be necessary to further their own goals, or Sinister may have her genetics against her will.

It could be telling that timeline 9 specifically mentions that Apocalypse enslaved Sinister. Heck, that could explain two Moiras - Moira 9 is cloned by Sinister, one of them dies and goes back, while the other remains. Timeline 9 doesn't specify a death, after all.

Moira is not detectable as a mutant. Sinister has no way to know she is unless she exposes herself to him, and why would she? Sinister is from the 1800s and is a villain in every timeline there is with NO redeeming qualities.

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We haven't been shown a way Sinister would know Moira is a mutant yet. The book covers a good thousand years - there's plenty of stuff we haven't seen yet. She doesn't need to specifically tell Sinister, either. Maybe it's just public knowledge in the future. Maybe Sinister knows she contracted the Legacy Virus and looked into it further.

I wonder, though - would Krakoa be able to recognize her as a mutant?

The mutants only worked with Sinister and his breeding pits after Sinister killed all of the leadership who would know better. This would obviously include Moira as a high profile mutant leader. She was dead by then.

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Do people need to be alive for Sinister to clone them?

You're reading too much into Cardinal. His pacifism is a reference to Nightcrawlers faith taken to extremes- nightcrawler being extremely religious has been a theme with him forever. The hive mind stuff is similar to powers the stepford cuckoos have, and sinister introduced that flaw intentionally to kill the mutant population. Theres no need for Moira here and trying to insert her powers is nonsensical.

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Yes, those are other ways to explain Cardinal or the Gen 4s. There being other reasons for the Cardinals and Gen 4s being as they are doesn't mean including Moira genes is invalid.

I'm just spit balling here, man. There's no need to get all weird and dismissive. I appreciate that you don't think this is what's happening. It's probably not what's happening, but it's fun to think about.

I wonder if 6 is her dying before the age of 13.

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I hate to be dismissive myself, but this doesn't work with what we currently know - Destiny said that if Moira died before her mutant powers manifested, she'd be dead for good. It could be revealed later that Lifetime 6 was Moira testing this and killing herself prior to age 13, but the reveal would probably revolve around why it still worked.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Man mystique and the brotherhood really roasted Moira like fajita steak lmao. UXM 254 teas

 

[R0b1n]

The virus mutated when moira got infected.

It was originally a virus that only targeted humans in the first place until Stryfe altered it to fuck with Sinister.

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Wow, guess my memory lied to me

 

[CoolestSpot]

Read this, read doomsday clock, then come back and tell me Marvel "events" are shit

 

[erlim]

Wow I just read House of X #2. This is perhaps the strongest opening to an X-Men event or storyline I've ever witnessed. Been reading since X-Men #1, but read through all the major storylines before.

 

[devenger]

I have very few comments, the setup is fun and full of potential. This doesnt really ruin Moira or any previous stories, and we've got a long way to go.

It seemed like Moira 4 was the closest to 616 but I barely scanned the graph. I also dont know how we get this Moira without Apoc Moira dying, so thats another wait and see.

Spitballing about Sinister, fun but... who knows? At this point anyone without their forehead showing must have a giant red diamond on it. This thing just keeps opening more rabbit holes, I'm really enjoying it.

 

[Manmademan]

I have very few comments, the setup is fun and full of potential. This doesnt really ruin Moira or any previous stories, and we've got a long way to go.

It seemed like Moira 4 was the closest to 616 but I barely scanned the graph. I also dont know how we get this Moira without Apoc Moira dying, so thats another wait and see.

Spitballing about Sinister, fun but... who knows? At this point anyone without their forehead showing must have a giant red diamond on it. This thing just keeps opening more rabbit holes, I'm really enjoying it.

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616 is life 10. 4 she marries Xavier, never has proteus, dies in a sentinel attack.

The "line" for life nine with apocalypse is indicating that timeline results in "endless" war for both sides. She dies eventually but exactly when isn't the point. Its a future of endless conflict and destruction.

 

[devenger]

616 is life 10. 4 she marries Xavier, never has proteus, dies in a sentinel attack.

The "line" for life nine with apocalypse is indicating that timeline results in "endless" war for both sides. She dies eventually but exactly when isn't the point. Its a future of endless conflict and destruction.

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Ah I saw 4 was "form the Xmen" and just footnoted it. I assume 10 is also a streamlined, post Secret Wars 616.

Of course a radicalized Moira would go ahead and have Proteus, who wouldnt give birth to an Omega reality warper if you had a plan.

 

[RapidCancel]

What's also interesting about the timelines shown is only 3 of the timelines show non solid lines. They're also the only timelines that doesn't outright states that she dies.

Life 5 implies she dies during the genocide at Faraway after being in a coma for a year, but it's not 100% certain.
Life 9 leaves you hanging with the Apocalypse war.
Life 10 she's currently still alive.

I wonder of all 3 of those are connected to life 6 somehow and if a version of her is still alive on those timelines.

 

[Billfisto]

I also dont know how we get this Moira without Apoc Moira dying, so thats another wait and see.

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I think it's telling that the point directly prior to the dashed-line segment of Lifetime 9 is "Apocalypse Enslaves Sinister". I really think cloning comes into play here. It's interesting, though - would a clone revert back to the Prime Moira baby, or the Clone Baby?

It's strange that the only other ended timeline with a dashed-line segment is Lifetime 5, just prior to the only missing Lifetime. She falls into a coma in the sentinel attack, dashed line, and then the line ends with Genocide at Faraway. The dashed line has to mean something. You would think "inactivity" or "has yet to play out", but neither option jives with all three yet.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Holy shit, what an issue. Hickman!!!

 

[fepeinado]

Wow I just read House of X #2. This is perhaps the strongest opening to an X-Men event or storyline I've ever witnessed. Been reading since X-Men #1, but read through all the major storylines before.

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I really think E is for Extinction was a stronger openning, but I have to highlight I don't think this Moira Groundhog's Day is for me.

 

[erlim]

I really think E is for Extinction was a stronger openning, but I have to highlight I don't think this Moira Groundhog's Day is for me.

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It's been a while since I've read it, but I think the thing about E for Extinction that's really gut punching is the slow burn out of the the status quo. It starts like a slightly classier version of your X-Men tale, and continually ramps up in ways to make the point that the X-Men aren't safe. I remember seeing Ugly John get wasted and then Genosha and then the menace of Cassandra Nova, constantly ratcheting the stakes in a meaningful way. House of X and Powers of X just starts absolutely haywire.

 

[deimosmasque]

What's also interesting about the timelines shown is only 3 of the timelines show non solid lines. They're also the only timelines that doesn't outright states that she dies.

Life 5 implies she dies during the genocide at Faraway after being in a coma for a year, but it's not 100% certain.
Life 9 leaves you hanging with the Apocalypse war.
Life 10 she's currently still alive.

I wonder of all 3 of those are connected to life 6 somehow and if a version of her is still alive on those timelines.

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I'm pretty sure she died in life 5. There is a final dot in the timeline that implies she dies with the other mutants. The dotted line there seems to imply she's not active in the events there.

However if that is correct it has interesting ideas of what is happening in 9 and 10.


Wait interesting. Life 5 goes dotted after her coma and then has a dot at the mutant genocide implying she dies.

Then we skip live 6 entirely.

Clue?

 

[Dalek]

Read this, read doomsday clock, then come back and tell me Marvel "events" are shit

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But I love Doomsday Clock. :(

 

[Palette Swap]

It just hit me, but if one earlier Moira had come into contact with Krakoa and found out about its uses, this would put into perspective (again) the X-Men's first contact with it. Charles would know about it too.

 

[Manmademan]

I'm pretty sure she died in life 5. There is a final dot in the timeline that implies she dies with the other mutants. The dotted line there seems to imply she's not active in the events there.

However if that is correct it has interesting ideas of what is happening in 9 and 10.


Wait interesting. Life 5 goes dotted after her coma and then has a dot at the mutant genocide implying she dies.

Then we skip live 6 entirely.

Clue?

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I think life 6 are events Moira doesnt want to acknowledge or think about. Maybe a breakdown and suicide attempt?

 

[VeePs]

Read this, read doomsday clock, then come back and tell me Marvel "events" are shit

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I've been enjoying this and Doomsday clock so far.

 

[deimosmasque]

But I love Doomsday Clock. :(

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Doomsday Clock is alright. It's really guilty of a lack of focus and throwing away its slow burn to make up for the delays.

That's why alot of people find it disappointing. It had a lot of potential that seems to be sort of pissed away at this point.

That's my opinion of it anyways.

 

[Woozies]

I think life 6 are events Moira doesnt want to acknowledge or think about. Maybe a breakdown and suicide attempt?

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That'd be some weak sucker shit from Hickman.

 

[Proteus]

I think life 6 are events Moira doesnt want to acknowledge or think about. Maybe a breakdown and suicide attempt?

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That's why I'm banking on it being a suicide attempt before she is 13. She tried to break the loop but it doesn't make a difference.

I kind of hope the whole thing about her being a mutant isn't actually what is happening but I assume she knows enough about genetics to know that she is genetically one.

 

[deimosmasque]

Maybe that's a timeline where everything went right but she died before seeing it.

Or maybe it actually is the 616? Maybe timeline 10 is just very similar to 616.

After all timeline 4 was shown to have most of the events in 616 as well.

 

[RapidCancel]

I'm pretty sure she died in life 5. There is a final dot in the timeline that implies she dies with the other mutants. The dotted line there seems to imply she's not active in the events there.

Wait interesting. Life 5 goes dotted after her coma and then has a dot at the mutant genocide implying she dies.

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The implication along with the dotted line is what makes it seem like she might still be alive in some capacity. In the other timelines where she dies, it tells you exactly how she died, but is missing from those.

 

[TheIlliterati]

The implication along with the dotted line is what makes it seem like she might still be alive in some capacity. In the other timelines where she dies, it tells you exactly how she died, but is missing from those.

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But reincarnation kind of depends on being dead, doesn't it? How can we go from 1 life to the next without her ever dying? Life six she's still alive and randomly life 7 just begins? It doesn't make sense. Same for life nine. She dies far in the future and we just don't know the date.

 

[Proteus]

Life five could just be a presumed death. It depends on the point of view the chart is being written from.

It read like "We presume she died here because of the genocide that took place and no one seeing her ever again".

There might be something more to it or we could just be reading into it.

 

[Billfisto]

I wonder if the dashed line could indicate that she's present in that timeline and in the next timeline.

Like, for timeline 5 she's in the coma (braindead?) and that's enough for her power to kick in and send her back, but her body's still there and technically alive, and it finally dies in the genocide.

For timeline 9, she could be cloned by Sinister or had something weird done to her by Sinister/Apocalypse, resulting in her staying in that timeline while also technically dying, sending another her back to timeline 10.

Her timeline 10 dotted line starts at House of X, so whatever's happening during the dotted line segment is happening from X10 on, I believe. It may be part of her and Xavier's "break all the rules" plan.

 

[xyla]

I just got hox/pox #1 :)
First ever weekly comics, so I don't really have any reference for what knowledge I should have brought in.

Krakoa seems to have been established before and is explored now? Or is it all new?
And the exposition that is on the one pagers is also all new information?

Also - in that kind of climate, Magento has to be sweating balls in that outfit. He's also an interesting choice for an ambassador considering his past.

 

[Proteus]

I just got hox/pox #1 :)
First ever weekly comics, so I don't really have any reference for what knowledge I should have brought in.

Krakoa seems to have been established before and is explored now? Or is it all new?
And the exposition that is on the one pagers is also all new information?

Also - in that kind of climate, Magento has to be sweating balls in that outfit. He's also an interesting choice for an ambassador considering his past.

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Krakoa has been around in a few different incarnations but I don't remember anything quite like what is presented here. I think the stuff with the flowers is all new.

 

[RapidCancel]

But reincarnation kind of depends on being dead, doesn't it? How can we go from 1 life to the next without her ever dying? Life six she's still alive and randomly life 7 just begins? It doesn't make sense. Same for life nine. She dies far in the future and we just don't know the date.

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It doesn't make sense to me either given her power. I'm just stating what I see on that chart more than anything since it seems to imply maybe something more in certain timelines that we don't know about yet.

 

[xyla]

Krakoa has been around in a few different incarnations but I don't remember anything quite like what is presented here. I think the stuff with the flowers is all new.

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Okay, so it's a living island with a consciousness?
What are all the eyes for? And it's basically an organic replicator?

 

[VeePs]

I just got hox/pox #1 :)
First ever weekly comics, so I don't really have any reference for what knowledge I should have brought in.

Krakoa seems to have been established before and is explored now? Or is it all new?
And the exposition that is on the one pagers is also all new information?

Also - in that kind of climate, Magento has to be sweating balls in that outfit. He's also an interesting choice for an ambassador considering his past.

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watch out this thread has a lot of open spoilers btw

 

[PadWarrior]

Okay, so it's a living island with a consciousness?
What are all the eyes for? And it's basically an organic replicator?

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If I remember right it was an alien island that captured the original X-men and it let Cyclops escape so that he would lead the new giant size team so it could feed on them as well.

 

[xyla]

watch out this thread has a lot of open spoilers btw

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Thanks for the advice.
My original plan was to read along every two weeks, but it takes around 8 days for the issues to arrive so the next issue is already out.

I'll just post my thoughts and questions and react to being quoted, otherwise I'll just start reading the thread from the beginning and ignore the recent posts.

 

[Palette Swap]

The timeline for Moira X makes no sense compared to Powers of X dates.
In PoX, year one is Moira meeting Xavier, while year ten is current House of X events in Krakoa.
In Moira X's timeline, she meets Xavier on year 17 and doesn't do much until year 27 when she founds the Muir Research Institute. If current HoX events are Moira X's timeline, that means she hasn't even founded the research institute.

Something is amiss or Hickman badly fucked up. I don't believe it's the latter.

My 12th crazy theory of the day: 616 is indeed Moira X but everything we're seeing now is Moira 6.

 

[xyla]

If I remember right it was an alien island that captured the original X-men and it let Cyclops escape so that he would lead the new giant size team so it could feed on them as well.

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Ookay, sure. But what tamed it? Why is it an ally to the mutants now? Or is that unknown as of hox #1?

 

[devenger]

There's no way we could have two Moira's in the same timeline, it starts over after her new birth. If she's born again physically, there's no Moira in a coma somewhere.

I guess there could be a never ending Apoc timeline that her mutant consciousness somehow defaults out of.

 

[OmniGamer]

Destiny's encounter with Moira III reminded me of the two separate times she was future-blind when in proximity to Jean Grey

 

[deimosmasque]

Ookay, sure. But what tamed it? Why is it an ally to the mutants now? Or is that unknown as of hox #1?

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The one you see now is not the original it is for lake of a better word, it's offspring. It's been a member of the X-Men for a while now serving as the living grounds of the Jean Grey Institute and I think it was part of Central Park too but I don't recall for sure

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Destiny's encounter with Moira III reminded me of the two separate times she was future-blind when in proximity to Jean Grey

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I feel like destiny gets future blinded in half the issues she appears in the 80s. And it's always something, like Mastermind from the hellfire club or The Beyonder or Xavier or the Adversary. Like damn yo what good is your power if ain't working most of the time

 

[devenger]

Maybe Moira 6 takes place in Moira 5's coma.

Also why does Moira 9 Apoc have House of X at the end?

 

[Billfisto]

Also why does Moira 9 Apoc have House of X at the end?

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That's Moira X , isn't it? I think the labels just shifted up there for spacing reasons.

 

[fepeinado]

It's been a while since I've read it, but I think the thing about E for Extinction that's really gut punching is the slow burn out of the the status quo.

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yes, I guess you are right about this. Anyway, I really want to know where Hickman is going to take this story

 

[fepeinado]

That's Moira X , isn't it? I think the labels just shifted up there for spacing reasons.

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it is. Moira 9 timeline goes up to the Apocalypse War

 

[RapidCancel]

The timeline for Moira X makes no sense compared to Powers of X dates.
In PoX, year one is Moira meeting Xavier, while year ten is current House of X events in Krakoa.
In Moira X's timeline, she meets Xavier on year 17 and doesn't do much until year 27 when she founds the Muir Research Institute. If current HoX events are Moira X's timeline, that means she hasn't even founded the research institute.

Something is amiss or Hickman badly fucked up. I don't believe it's the latter.

My 12th crazy theory of the day: 616 is indeed Moira X but everything we're seeing now is Moira 6.

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Good catch. Unless it just meant she met him once while they were in college, but the scene in year one of HoX didn't actually happen until year 43 of Moira X; the same year they recruit Magneto.

There's no way we could have two Moira's in the same timeline, it starts over after her new birth. If she's born again physically, there's no Moira in a coma somewhere.

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I think it's weird as well, considering what we know about her power. It just seems very oddly specific that they chose those 3 timelines to not state how she dies and it's treated with different arrows than the others.

Also why does Moira 9 Apoc have House of X at the end?

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It doesn't. House of X has a line that draws straight onto Moira 10.

 

[AliceAmber]

Just finished reading, that was absolutely amazing. I can't wait to see where it goes from here. But as a story in of itself that was killer.

 

[Dalek]

Just finished reading, that was absolutely amazing. I can't wait to see where it goes from here. But as a story in of itself that was killer.

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The crazy thing is that each issue so far has kind of been their own "establishing" issues and each one has been batshit crazy...we aren't even into the real story yet.

 

[devenger]

Ha, I had to buy this on Comixology and having to scroll across pages is a bitch.

 

[thetrin]

So....how close was I on what was happening? Pretty damned close.

That is NOT the Moira we "knew." She has knowledge of future events, but apparently not just one timeline, ten prior timelines (!)

This is a massive retcon (moira was never a mutant, but now is). Blame Secret Wars if you want, thats why that event happened.

This is a time travel story, but not a traditional one. The future is influencing the past, though no one is time traveling per se.

Xavier is doing what he is due to Moira informing him of future events. But we still don't know why these changes don't seem to appear until year 10.

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One could suggest that "breaking all the rules" meant going through everything the X-men had to go through to get to year 10. She's been through seemingly every other easier permutation, so everything up until now HAD to happen to lead to this point.

 

[Manmademan]

One could suggest that "breaking all the rules" meant going through everything the X-men had to go through to get to year 10. She's been through seemingly every other easier permutation, so everything up until now HAD to happen to lead to this point.

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Oh, i meant year ten not life ten.

The Xavier we have now in the present running around with the cerebro helmet is radically different than he was before.

He finds out about Moiras past lives in Year 1, but doesnt start his Maker impression until ten years later.

 

[thetrin]

so, why didn't Moira prevent the Genosha genocide or Decimation or Terrigen killing mutants if she had foreknowledge of all those things?

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If you look at her various timelines, she actually dies fairly young in a lot of them. A lot of that stuff happens YEARS after she died.

Oh, i meant year ten not life ten.

The Xavier we have now in the present running around with the cerebro helmet is radically different than he was before.

He finds out about Moiras past lives in Year 1, but doesnt start his Maker impression until ten years later.

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That's kinda what I mean. Maybe Moira always told Xavier these things, and he had to go through the steps, knowing fully well that he would always have to approach that point. it would mean that Xavier knew that a lot of what he did would fail, but had to do it anyway, to reach the dream.
Or maybe Maker Xavier is not who we think he is, and all is weird and bad. I guess we'll find out soon.

I think it's interesting that Xavier used telekinesis to take Mystique's flash drive. He doesn't have that power as far as we know...

Revealing that he's actually Maker would have me let out a real fucking huge chuckle.