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Jonathan Cooper (ex ND) says studios MS acquired aren't at the same level as Sony 1P "will only get there with long-term hiring and financial support"
- Thread starter lunanto
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Generalizing all studios into one on top of being an outright jackass.
I'd contest Playground is right up there with the best of the industry and the only reason gets less visibility as a top tier creator is cause the industry devalues any game that does not have a heavy narrative focus.
I'd contest Playground is right up there with the best of the industry and the only reason gets less visibility as a top tier creator is cause the industry devalues any game that does not have a heavy narrative focus.
Talent is everything, especially in creative industries. And time is more valuable than money. It remains to be seen what projects Microsoft will get out of the acquisitions, I certainly hope for the best, but it should be clear to everybody that you can't just buy studios and give them some money and hope that they'll immediately be able to match the kinda output that Naughty Dog or Sony Santa Monica produce. As an analogy, look at the Music industry. You can't seriously hope to match what the Beatles were doing by you just putting a bunch of people together and giving them some money, even if it's an asston of money. It takes a whole lot more to get to that kinda level of quality.
And I think Microsoft is aware of that. Look at Turn10 as an example. Back when they started on Forza, it was clear that they wouldn't immediately be able to compete with Polyphony... but give it some time and let them focus and boom, today they are not just competing, but are on top.
At Moon, we started in 2009 and it took us a good decade to build the pipelines, toolchains, grow the team and acquire the talent necessary to make the project we're working on after Will of the Wisps. If we'd have gotten a AAA budget right from the get-go, we would've still had a hard time competing with already well-established teams back then. But today, we're locked and loaded and can compete on the highest level, exactly because the team went through 10 years of experience, grind, teambuilding, etc.
And I think Microsoft is aware of that. Look at Turn10 as an example. Back when they started on Forza, it was clear that they wouldn't immediately be able to compete with Polyphony... but give it some time and let them focus and boom, today they are not just competing, but are on top.
At Moon, we started in 2009 and it took us a good decade to build the pipelines, toolchains, grow the team and acquire the talent necessary to make the project we're working on after Will of the Wisps. If we'd have gotten a AAA budget right from the get-go, we would've still had a hard time competing with already well-established teams back then. But today, we're locked and loaded and can compete on the highest level, exactly because the team went through 10 years of experience, grind, teambuilding, etc.
It sounds like more you prefer Obsidian to Sony first party studios. Nothing wrong about it but he tried to argue a totally different stuff in his tweet.
I might be misreading it, but I don't like how Cooper implies complete destruction of a company's culture. Throwing more bodies and money at, say, Obsidian isn't going to magically lead to better games, especially the sort of games Obsidian has traditionally made. It just feels like the sort of condescending remark that can only be made because one company's had a good generation, and the other hasn't, irrespective of either company's actual output.
Reads and comes across like something I would read from a corporate employee trying to pose as a neutral poster in the midst of a console warrior thread on Reddit.
OP
OP
Of course, and I´m just saying how I think that opinion could be expressed differently.
Nothing controversial. And is born out by most metrics. That could change obviously, but it hasn't yet.
That title though.
He isn't wrong, most of MS's older acquisitions have developed great veteran studios like Turn 10, Playground etc. With time, resources & games, the new ones can only get better.
That's a bloody bold faced BS.
He isn't wrong, most of MS's older acquisitions have developed great veteran studios like Turn 10, Playground etc. With time, resources & games, the new ones can only get better.
That's a bloody bold faced BS.
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It's way too soon to say as we don't know what the majority of those acquired studios will be working on for Microsoft, what kind of financial support they'll be getting, etc etc. Lets wait and see what exclusive someone like Obsidian are going to be making before we judge that
Where does he imply that? He said he prefers this method (buying studios and building them up) to the alternative of building a studio from scratch.
To me seems clear he said to not approve at all how MS tries to handle this stuff; I don't think there is any better way to claim something which is against who appreciate what MS did.
I am glad thread didn't turned ugly and I agree also. Not just about talent and time of the new acquired studios but how MS will choose to utilize them. Acquiring Rare doesn't necessarily mean good games.
Well ofcourse not. Sony has some of the best studio's in the industry and got there by investing in the team, the people and the tech. Most studio's Microsoft bought are small studio's that have mostly developed small games. A studio like Double Fine is great for MS to fill up their Game Pass lineup, but unless something really crazy happens, will never reach the hights of a Naughty Dog or Santa Monica. Some of the studio's MS bought can get there though, but it will take years before they reach that level.
I think most people would agree with these comments. Many of the studios they bought were making smaller games but they were used to working as a team to create and ship a product. Microsoft probably believes they can grow these studios into big budget ones over the years to come.
I'd guess you aren't going to see anywhere close to comparable quality between Microsoft's and Sony's first party games for at least 6 or 7 years, and that's assuming Microsoft does everything right.
Anyone thinking MS are going to be at the level of Sony's WWS next generation are in for a massive disappointment.
Anyone thinking MS are going to be at the level of Sony's WWS next generation are in for a massive disappointment.
This.
As a whole I agree that Sony has more great studios than MS, but you can't ignore two great ones.
I am excited for your next project and thanks for your viewpoint!
They had talent long ago. Insomniac made disruptor, spyro as their first games. And back then they were great. Naughty dog made crash, then made jak and daxter which had disney like character designs and animation.
Santa monica made twisted metal as their big first game on ps1. Though at the time sony didn't own all of them, they had lots of talent right off the bat. A lot were animators from film/animation studios backgrounds.
True story.. I'm happy that MS have acquired some new studios but none of them are up to the standards of either Sony Santa Monica or Naughty Dog.
Still, time will tell...
Still, time will tell...
well yea, those studios have yet to prove themselves to be on the same capability in the same budget level (maybe PG did but they have been operating in a specific genre so far so you cant really compare them, we will see after Fable), and MS has yet to prove they are capable of managing so many studios either.
But I am open to seeing what can they do, we will know if they have the abillity to grow to these levels (if they will get big budgets to work with) in the next 5 or so years.
But I am open to seeing what can they do, we will know if they have the abillity to grow to these levels (if they will get big budgets to work with) in the next 5 or so years.
Playground is a perfect example of what cultivated studio with time and budget means.
I wouldn't be so quick to call someone names.
I'd agree that Playground, Obsidian, Team Ninja, etc. are probably the best bets for Microsoft to get hits out of them, but you also need to consider that Playground only made racing games before and they did that by standing on the shoulders of Turn10. So them creating a hit in another genre isn't a foregone conclusion, there's certainly a risk there. Look at Squaresoft in the 90s - They were the undisputed kings in the RPG genre, but when they tried to diversify and started making Beat em Ups, Shooters and Sports games, their output was far from great.
So in the end, it all boils down to the talent within those studios and this is why that's a great thing: We'll see some people fail, we'll see others rise to the occasion and create something fantastic. Hopefully we'll see more of the latter than the former.
Well, okay then: I'd say that, based on the sum of their work over the years, Obsidian is on a 'higher level' than any of Sony's first party studios, even though I enjoy a lot of those studios' games. Obsidian's output has been more meaningful, more interesting, and, for me, more fun. And I say that even though, when I compare the Obsidian game I played most recently - The Outer Worlds - with the Sony first party game I played most recently - Uncharted 4 - I actually think the Sony game comes out on top. (To be clear, I played both this year--I came to Uncharted 4 way late, since I kinda lost enthusiasm for the franchise after 3.)
Obviously, this position is couched in my own subjective taste--but so would be any position to contrary.
yep. The initial tweet even conveys the 'step in the right direction' narrative that people are saying here.
Not sure why he had to add the 'not at the same level' part to fuel flames.
He says studios need money, "support", and more employees to be on the same level as Sony. It just sounds very industrial, like you're assembling a car or something.
I was thinking he left no room for talent or experience, but upon rereading it that might be implied in the "long-term hiring" bit.
The title should add the last part, because it's really clickbait and reads like Cooper is shitting on the devs when he is saying the opposite.
And yes, he is right, of course you need time to reach that level, even Sony studios started from the bottom and now they make great games.
And yes, he is right, of course you need time to reach that level, even Sony studios started from the bottom and now they make great games.
All of Playground's games have been developed & released before MS's acquisition...
While I do think he's right, I don't really understand why'd you tweet this. Studios like Obsidian, Playground Games and Ninja Theory create fantastic experiences. There must be plenty of people who'd choose their games over the games of some Sony studios. And of course Microsoft has studios that create better and more interesting games than some Sony studios. It's not all black and white.
Idk, the new Senua game is probably going to be amazing, with out the years and years you speak of. Actually Hellblade was more enjoyable than UC4 imo. So I guess they are already at the height I see Naughty Dog is at.
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