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JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|

Tokio Blues

Tokio Blues

Member
Sep 14, 2018
551
Hello everyone, I could finally saw Joker last night and I have some points to consider:

1) Joaquins Phoenix's performance is brilliant. The representation of a mentally disordered patient taken to the limit by the structure of society is really perfectly executed. Not all people are equally resistant to adversity, some simply break. Joaquin Phoenix does a fabulous job in this regard.

2) Photography and color palette is perfect.

3) Bruce Wayne, Thomas Wayne and Batman Origins are the pillars that built the structure surrounding the movie.

4) There is no way to compare the Ledger Joker with this one. They are simply distinct and antagonistic. Each one stands out for their own, they are incomparable. Both perfectly executed, with their beliefs, motives, ideas, sufferings.

5) The movement against the rich arises as an accessory to Arthur's actions. The movie makes it clear that he never wanted to be a forerunner, he just wanted some happiness in his life. These facts were a consequence of his actions, it was not planned.

6) Perfect soundtrack.

7) The tension that of the last minutes in the Murray show, is an example of direction, photography, dialogue, and script.

8) Many people say "the movie is saved by Joaquin's performance". It may be true. But it is not a valid argument to say that the movie is bad. Particularly when in absolutely all the scenes of the movie the main actor is in it. If I remember correctly, there is only one and that is when they kill the Wayne in the alley.

9) Joaquin Phoenix is a serious candidate for the Oscar, and if he wins. It is very well deserved.

Final Score: 9.5/10
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
JB1981 said:
Which post? I think my point on this is pretty clear. Whether it's factually correct that society doesn't care about Arthur or the poor is beside the point. The point is, responsible therapists are NOT going to say this to someone who's presenting as suicidal. It's just another case of the movie presenting EVERY PERSON Arthur interacts with as awful. It's unrealistic and annoying and I think the movie generates too much sympathy for him.... and yes that's after the killing begins.
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The post that quoted you? #2082
 
Grain Silo

Grain Silo

Member
Dec 15, 2017
2,514
Man, what a movie. Gotham felt like a dingy gloomy dirty shithole of a city and it permeated everything. I loved it. Phoenix easily deserves an oscar and I will be disappointed if he's passed over for it.
 
Shrennin

Shrennin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,685
Just saw it today. Finally.

my favorite movie of the year. Phoenix's performance was chilling. I need to process it more.
 
JLP101

JLP101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,745
Tokio Blues said:
Hello everyone, I could finally saw Joker last night and I have some points to consider:

1) Joaquins Phoenix's performance is brilliant. The representation of a mentally disordered patient taken to the limit by the structure of society is really perfectly executed. Not all people are equally resistant to adversity, some simply break. Joaquin Phoenix does a fabulous job in this regard.

2) Photography and color palette is perfect.

3) Bruce Wayne, Thomas Wayne and Batman Origins are the pillars that built the structure surrounding the movie.

4) There is no way to compare the Ledger Joker with this one. They are simply distinct and antagonistic. Each one stands out for their own, they are incomparable. Both perfectly executed, with their beliefs, motives, ideas, sufferings.

5) The movement against the rich arises as an accessory to Arthur's actions. The movie makes it clear that he never wanted to be a forerunner, he just wanted some happiness in his life. These facts were a consequence of his actions, it was not planned.

6) Perfect soundtrack.

7) The tension that of the last minutes in the Murray show, is an example of direction, photography, dialogue, and script.

8) Many people say "the movie is saved by Joaquin's performance". It may be true. But it is not a valid argument to say that the movie is bad. Particularly when in absolutely all the scenes of the movie the main actor is in it. If I remember correctly, there is only one and that is when they kill the Wayne in the alley.

9) Joaquin Phoenix is a serious candidate for the Oscar, and if he wins. It is very well deserved.

Final Score: 9.5/10
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Just came back from watching the movie and I agree with all your points. Joaquin Phoenix deserves best actor.
 
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,327
subpar spatula said:
Add my extra layer of confusion to this.
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C-658VsXoAo3ovC.jpg
 
TheRuralJuror

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
JDSpades said:
The post that quoted you? #2082
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In general, I don't see why that poster keeps harping on a point they could never prove despite multiple people sharing other experiences. Probably best to move on as it's just gotten silly at this point and they seem to ignore anyone sharing contrasting experiences. Like, I visit the doctor, but that doesn't mean I can tell you how every doctor on the planet is going to behave in every situation. I wish discourse of this nature wasn't so common lately, but c'est la vie.

edit: great review up at the top of the page. Agree with a lot.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
Watched it yesterday. Solid movie, 8/10 in my book, well worth the money.


That scene with the midget had me on the edge lol. It was hilarious and frightening at the same time.
 
Jojo Sonoshe

Jojo Sonoshe

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 19, 2019
72
Kind of thought the movie was pretty bad. Really boring and pointless.

Don't really know what the point of the movie was. How was this a character study beyond I guess if the world is unrelentingly terrible to a mentally disturbed man they can be pushed. Oh and it's bad if Society doesn't have outreach. Nobody cares really is'nt nuanced to me and the world presented here seems extremely dark and cynical with little actual thought behind it. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from here. "You get what you deserved" seems to be the movie's thesis, but like no one who suffers in this movie deserves anything. Was Thomas Wayne a douche? I guess. Robert D? Yeah for sure, doesn't mean they deserve to be killed. But nowhere does the movie really entice me to care for Joker's fall beyond the fact that I can relate to him being in an uncaring world. He doesn't really have anything for me to tug unto that I can feel like "Man if his character just didn't have this flaw or attitude/perspective" he'd not fall. Usually antiheros or villains who you can understand have a warped view that you under the right circumstances, could see yourself agreeing with or falling into. I'm not sure what is was here beyond I guess the desire to be cared for? Maybe it would have been more powerful if his mother was genuinely caring for him, so when he does lash out you know it was just his anger and delusion blinding to the fact that there was some light in his life. Instead, everything's just bad and why should I care?

Also so many things in this movie were lame.

The reveal of his love life being fake was lol duh! At no point did it seem believable, but I mean on a technical level. They were never framed naturally as if the movie messed up setting up the trick of "oh she's not really here". Their lines weren't written in a believable way so for you go "OH YEAH" on a rewatch. And I had no story reason to be tricked into thinking this would happen. Also why the fuck did she not lock her door?
 
Uncivilized Elk

Uncivilized Elk

Banned
Jun 22, 2019
3,660
Jojo Sonoshe said:
Kind of thought the movie was pretty bad. Really boring and pointless.

Don't really know what the point of the movie was. How was this a character study beyond I guess if the world is unrelentingly terrible to a mentally disturbed man they can be pushed. Oh and it's bad if Society doesn't have outreach. Nobody cares really is'nt nuanced to me and the world presented here seems extremely dark and cynical with little actual thought behind it. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from here. "You get what you deserved" seems to be the movie's thesis, but like no one who suffers in this movie deserves anything. Was Thomas Wayne a douche? I guess. Robert D? Yeah for sure, doesn't mean they deserve to be killed. But nowhere does the movie really entice me to care for Joker's fall beyond the fact that I can relate to him being in an uncaring world. He doesn't really have anything for me to tug unto that I can feel like "Man if his character just didn't have this flaw or attitude/perspective" he'd not fall. Usually antiheros or villains who you can understand have a warped view that you under the right circumstances, could see yourself agreeing with or falling into. I'm not sure what is was here beyond I guess the desire to be cared for? Maybe it would have been more powerful if his mother was genuinely caring for him, so when he does lash out you know it was just his anger and delusion blinding to the fact that there was some light in his life. Instead, everything's just bad and why should I care?
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That sums up the movie very nicely.
It's very vapid and inane.
 
XaviConcept

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
The end of the movie alluded that Joker was a very unreliable narrator. Has there been a breakdown of what he was making up and what was real? Obviously the girlfriend was fake but seems like there was more.

the more I think about this movie the more the "fake good movie" description pops in my head. Its a movie that really likes Taxi Driver but doesn't know what made it great.
 
cheesekao

cheesekao

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,783
Just got back from watching it and the only part I'd consider to be good is the last 15 minutes. The rest is...competent I suppose.
 
Cuburger

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Finally saw it. Still parsing my thoughts but my first reaction is that I didn't like it. There are good elements like the cinematography and the look of the film captured that gritty 70/80's feel pretty well. Phoenix did well and I thought the music was probably the best part.

The movie is just so nihilistic and cynical. It really goes out of it's way to make almost every single character cruel to Arthur in some way for no reason or just an asshole. Also, besides Arthur's violence, he is shown in his interactions with others mostly as kind and meek, but not antagonistic and cruel himself. He tries to make others laugh but they are assholes for no reason and they mock him and make fun of him. When he is vulnerable and reaches out to his mother or Thomas Wayne he is met with cruelty, even to the point where we see his mother locked herself in the bathroom because he was angry and she was scared, but we don't see his anger with her since it happened off screen, just his calm pleas to explain why she kept the info from him. We even see how Arthur is so kind to his former clown co-worker that he gives him a kiss on the head while he spares him. It's not really a story of a person slowly losing his humanity to become a monster, but of a monstrous world that only has to tempt him just a little to become as ugly. It literally hands him a gun and tells him to be afraid of the world but the gun will give him power.

The gun does mark his descent, but it is also the catalyst for many bad things happening in his life. It is a little curious that I've seen so little discussion about how crucial the gun is to the story and the film's message. It's Chekhov's Gun: The Movie and it's kind of odd because I didn't expect a Joker movie to hinge so much on gun imagery and be so inextricably tied to the character's origin and his own journey of self-empowerment.

I have a lot more thoughts, but I think I'm going to sleep on it and discuss it more later.

One last thing I want to write down before I forget, but I don't think Arthur's delusions were meant to show him losing touch with reality. They seem like fantasies and there is no time where we see him confuse his daydream of meeting Murray with actually having had met him before or when he is in his neighbor's apartment, he doesn't seem to be deluded that they really had an actual relationship, nor does he act like she's acting strange because she acts like she doesn't really know him. I think he is sane and it speaks more to his loneliness and need for acknowledgement than being out of touch with reality.

Speaking of which, I'm confused for why if his mother was delusional enough to have told everyone that if she had a romantic history with Thomas Wayne and he was Arthur's father, why did she keep it a secret from Arthur and why did Arthur seem to have no clue that his mom had such mental health issues? Maybe I missed something, but even if he had never learned from her her relationship with Thomas and had trust for her word, would her personality disorder not have manifested in other ways that would have created a whole history of trust issues with her or he himself really distort his own reality to have made it line up with what his mom tells him? It seems like her delusions only manifested in this relationship with Thomas Wayne, that wasn't completely made up since she did work for him. Maybe that means that she was telling the truth in some way.
 
subpar spatula

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,148
Also to be on-topic, why does it care if people aren't realistic enough to not be nice to Arthur? It's an origin story of a guy who runs around in clown make-up with an army of other clown make-up wanting to take down a man dressed as a Bat? You'd think there'd be some leeway. You want to craft and bend a world to make this individual possible. Like, how is "the therapist wasn't real enough" a criticism? An actual Joker is probably unrealistic, but the world a character like that exists, therapists are probably a lot of shit.
 
travisbickle

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Why are people trying to sympathise with Arthur? He stabbed a man in the throat and eye just because that guy tried to cover his own arse because Arthur took his gun to a children's hospital.
 
VaporSnake

VaporSnake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,603
JB1981 said:
. It's just another case of the movie presenting EVERY PERSON Arthur interacts with as awful. It's unrealistic and annoying
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Yet again you seem to completely miss the part where this isn't set in reality, but set in Gotham city, a city so cartoonishly rotten to the core that it brings down each and every one of it's citizens, this is made very clear in the film itself. This is the city that creates the batman, the place that creates the joker, of course it's not going to line up with reality.

I don't know why you have such a hard time grasping this.
 
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