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Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,644
Brazil
Just saw it. I was entertained, but it is FAR from a good movie.

Making his laugh a disorder and specially connected to stress and discomfort absolutely killed any impact of a joker laugh ever had. Like less impacting than Cesar Romero's laugh

While I loved the "gay blade" reference, the fact that the director feelt the need to show the killing of batman parents AGAIN tells everyting you need to know about how bad is the script

edit: how they felt the need to make a flashback to when arthur was with his girlfriend when she said "your name is arthur right? is your mom alone in her appartment?" tells you everything you need to know about what the director expects of his audience
 
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Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,158
I really enjoyed it. Great first act and third act.

It was enthralling and I wanted to see more. Would love a sequel (though I understand that will never happen, I really enjoy Joaquin Phoenix's Joker, and would be curious to see him in that world against Batman)
 

TheKeipatzy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,716
California for now
honestly I found that I loved the movie but at the same time I kind of hated it but I think that's what made me like it even more.

I was fortunate enough to 12 noon showing it was rather quiet with the exception of a couple brutal parts that got people shocked and saying stuff amongst themselves.

my brother and friend are going to be watching it with me Tuesday and I'm looking forward to seeing how they like it or not.

...and yes I say get rid of the Gary Glitter song, but also because he is a complete and utter disgusting individual.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
edit: how they felt the need to make a flashback to when arthur was with his girlfriend when she said "your name is arthur right? is your mom alone in her appartment?" tells you everything you need to know about what the director expects of his audience
I'm still convinced that a lot ot Zazie Beets stuff was cut, including her murder, and the plot thread in the film is some sort of salvaging
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
My theater went nuts in the talk show scene. Everyone reacted like OHHHHHH OHHH shit! very loud, and uncomfortable laughs and whispers afterward.
Honestly this was so underwhelming. It dragged on too long and has been done better in other iterations of joker. I went in expecting to be shocked but it felt fairly by the numbers
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,363
Just saw this....I really liked it. The music was great and just watching Joaquin do his thing was a bit intoxicating along with the music. I also dug it for what it was. I loved that heath's joker had an ambiguous backstory but I also loved seeing this kind of story...and they still managed to leave it a ambiguous by the end.
 

Hinkypunk

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
134
So can someone please explain the incel fears about this movie?

Because I just saw it and I have literally no possible idea how you could create that take from this movie.

Were scenes cut from the final release?
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,449
Honestly this was so underwhelming. It dragged on too long and has been done better in other iterations of joker. I went in expecting to be shocked but it felt fairly by the numbers

THE WHOLE MOVIE IS BY THE NUMBERS. Nothing but broad strokes and shallow characterization. Phillips, as of late, has been a lowest common denominator storyteller and that approach with this subject matter, which has been explored numerous times by expert craftsmen, is unacceptable.

Studio gives you the greenlight to riff off Scorsese for $60M and this is what you deliver?

So can someone please explain the incel fears about this movie?

Because I just saw it and I have literally no possible idea how you could create that take from this movie.

Were scenes cut from the final release?

It's the third act and more specifically the last 30 mins or so.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
THE WHOLE MOVIE IS BY THE NUMBERS. Nothing but broad strokes and shallow characterization. Phillips, as of late, has been a lowest common denominator storyteller and that approach with this subject matter, which has been explored numerous times by expert craftsmen, is unacceptable.

Studio gives you the greenlight to riff off Scorsese for $60M and this is what you deliver?
I entirely agree. Its not smart, its not subtle, it essentially beats you over the head with its themes without saying anything new or interesting. I enjoyed it for a vessel in which pheonix could just show his acting chops but I didn' think the movie itself was amazing or smart or anything and the talk show climax really didn't do much for me. I thought the apartment scene prior was far better done. I also can't help but feel like this isn't really joker at all. Hes to pathetic and stupid and to ever pose as a serious threat to batman or bring terror down on gotham like we would expect.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Joaquin-Joker is completely socially inept. At no point does he have anything approaching a normal human interaction, and he has no idea how to put people at ease in a conversation. He isn't capable of understanding social interaction. He just seems vaguely autistic.

I don't imagine how he would ever become the charismatic manipulator maniac that usually occupies the Joker character. He never charms anyone, never does anything that someone would find compelling or persuasive. Shit, he never even writes a good joke. I don't expect him to ever turn into Cesar Romero, but even the more grim Ledger and Leto versions seem like a far cry from Arthur Fleck.
Arthur is socially inept. The Joker, primarily displayed in the ending sequence was anything but vaguely autistic. His character is right in line with with Ledger's Joker in how they interact with folks.
 

Beef Supreme

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,073
Wow! What a movie. Joaquin Phoenix continues to be one of the most underrated actors in Hollywood and man what a performance he gave here. Easily rivaling, if not out right exceeding, Ledger's performance. Movie was a slow burner, but by the end the grin was ear to ear.

I do have two questions. Is it standard practice to have the adoption papers of your child in a parent's psychological file? Is Phoenix going to be in the next Batman film?
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,445


These criticisms can be so fucking dumb sometimes. To dismiss ad astra as just a "sad white man" movie is so reductive. Since it would literally play the same way with any race in that role seeing as its about how masculinity can be a detriment to your well being.

Another case of somebody tripping over themselves to look woke.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
I also can't help but feel like this isn't really joker at all. Hes to pathetic and stupid and to ever pose as a serious threat to batman or bring terror down on gotham like we would expect.

Given it's a one-off, I don't believe it was ever intended to be that kind of Joker. This is a self-contained story about a guy named Arthur, that got called "Joker" once, who's happenstance brought about a tipping point to civil unrest and worse, in Gotham city. There's no indication Batman even exists here, or will exist. Just a kid named Bruce who's life is shattered by Arthur's residual influence.

The story is as it is. Very surface level.

I think IF Batman were to be added to this particular world, his challenges would come as a continued result of Arthur's unintended influence on Gotham rather than "Joker" himself.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,449
Wow! What a movie. Joaquin Phoenix continues to be one of the most underrated actors in Hollywood and man what a performance he gave here. Easily rivaling, if not out right exceeding, Ledger's performance. Movie was a slow burner, but by the end the grin was ear to ear.

I do have two questions. Is it standard practice to have the adoption papers of your child in a parent's psychological file? Is Phoenix going to be in the next Batman film?

Phoenix is not underrated in Hollywood. He's handsomely paid, been nominated for three Oscars, and works with some of the best directors in the world.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
So can someone please explain the incel fears about this movie?

Because I just saw it and I have literally no possible idea how you could create that take from this movie.

Were scenes cut from the final release?
I can't shake the feeling that the entire reason it became a thing was to play off the prospect of alt right/incel violence as a "lol they'll shoot up a joker movie because gamers rise up" thing
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
I can't shake the feeling that the entire reason it became a thing was to play off the prospect of alt right/incel violence as a "lol they'll shoot up a joker movie because gamers rise up" thing

When you forget about Aurora and your scope of understanding the world is strictly limited to gamer joker memes.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Given it's a one-off, I don't believe it was ever intended to be that kind of Joker. This is a self-contained story about a guy named Arthur, that got called "Joker" once, who's happenstance brought about a tipping point to civil unrest and worse, in Gotham city. There's no indication Batman even exists here, or will exist. Just a kid named Bruce who's life is shattered by Arthur's residual influence.

The story is as it is. Very surface level.

I think IF Batman were to be added to this particular world, his challenges would come as a continued result of Arthur's unintended influence on Gotham rather than "Joker" himself.
It doesnt really matter that its a one off, its still a one off thats supposed to take the character of the joker. Lol at the idea batman wont exist here when they had thomas, martha, and bruce wayne in addition to alfred, while also having the exact replica of his parents death that turns bruce into batman in the movie, while having joker allude in the final scene have a flash back to bruce standing over their dead bodies. If they didn't want this to be a proper joker movie or have any ties to batman they could have called it something different; and certainly not done so much with the waynes.
 

wenis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,105
It doesnt really matter that its a one off, its still a one off thats supposed to take the character of the joker. Lol at the idea batman wont exist here when they had thomas, martha, and bruce wayne in addition to alfred, while also having the exact replica of his parents death that turns bruce into batman in the movie, while having joker allude in the final scene have a flash back to bruce standing over their dead bodies. If they didn't want this to be a proper joker movie or have any ties to batman they could have called it something different; and certainly not done so much with the waynes.
Literally none of that equates it to having it be a Batman origin story nor do they need to continue it.

thats life
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
These criticisms can be so fucking dumb sometimes. To dismiss ad astra as just a "sad white man" movie is so reductive. Since it would literally play the same way with any race in that role seeing as its about how masculinity can be a detriment to your well being.

Another case of somebody tripping over themselves to look woke.
There's a lot of people who are doing this for this film, shit's embarrassing.
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,170
Just got back from the cinema and my screening was fucking packed and everyone seemed hooked - good mixture of people too. It seems this will have a very wide appeal.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
Well, I just got out of the film and whew, that was something. I'm going to need to let this one stew for a bit, but I definitely felt uncomfortable walking out of the film. Like, I was on edge leaving the theater and driving home. I can say right now I don't think it's spectacular, the script has issues and is a too predictable at times. But, it definitely is elevated by the performances. I do find the messaging of the film muddled, of course what can you expect from a film that needed to actually show the Wayne murders, AGAIN.

For instance, I we supposed to agree that society helped create The Joker though its treatment of him and each other? The film seems to want to make clear that The Joker is not right. He straight up says he's not political and doesn't believe in anything. Yet, during his rant on the Murray show he talks about how people aren't nice to him and would pass him by without blinking. Yet, it's very likely he killed Zassie Baetz's character who did nothing to him and even tried to be sympathetic towards him. Are we supposed to hate the rich like Thomas Wayne? Or are they just misunderstood? I don't know.

That said, Thomas Wayne is a real prick which is certainly a more realistic take on a mega-rich dude who inherited his wealth that the stellar image he's usually presented as. If Reeve's Batman actually follows this backstory then it'll be interesting how that dynamic changes Batman.

I couldn't believe how many young kids were at my screening last night. Like 12 year olds with their parents. WTF is wrong with some people?

That's insane. I dunno if even I was old enough to watch it.



That's just a dumb take.
 

Dierce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,993
These criticisms can be so fucking dumb sometimes. To dismiss ad astra as just a "sad white man" movie is so reductive. Since it would literally play the same way with any race in that role seeing as its about how masculinity can be a detriment to your well being.

Another case of somebody tripping over themselves to look woke.
Kinda get the feeling that Nolan realized that his next film would receive this same criticism so he cast John David Washington as the lead. Pretty ingenious, Nolan always ahead of the curve.

But seriously that is a pretty bad take.
 
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Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
Just come back from watching with friends. Best alternative DC film in years. Just super unearving the entire film. Proper edge of seat waiting to see what happens. Just dark and oppressive and I loved every minute. Cannot really think of anything super negative that I did not like.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
It doesnt really matter that its a one off, its still a one off thats supposed to take the character of the joker. Lol at the idea batman wont exist here when they had thomas, martha, and bruce wayne in addition to alfred, while also having the exact replica of his parents death that turns bruce into batman in the movie, while having joker allude in the final scene have a flash back to bruce standing over their dead bodies. If they didn't want this to be a proper joker movie or have any ties to batman they could have called it something different; and certainly not done so much with the waynes.

It's a take on Joker. You don't have to like it; that's totally ok. But you can't say it's done wrong by measure of what Joker is or isn't.

This is, for better or worse, Todd Phillips' Joker movie.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Literally none of that equates it to having it be a Batman origin story nor do they need to continue it.

thats life
This is so disingenuous I don't even know how to respond. It absolutely equates to batman otherwise they wouldn't have bothered showing the wayne murders.
It's a take on Joker. You don't have to like it; that's totally ok. But you can't say it's done wrong by measure of what Joker is or isn't.

This is, for better or worse, Todd Phillips' Joker movie.
I'm aware. Which is why I feel this joker is one of the weaker entries weve gotten on the big screen (although certainly better than Leto)
 

n8 dogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
671
Joker is defined solely by its influences. It wears its debt to Scorsese on its sleeve, embracing the concepts of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver as plainly as the red nose on Joker's face.

But there's another few influences it has tried to ignore, in its ambition to be a truly great movie.

It has very good cinematography and colour grading.

It has an eclectic and funky needle drop sound track.

It has an engaging lead performance by a charismatic actor.

It has a leaden, on-the-nose script, with no depth or subtext whatsoever, with conflicted intentions about the violence it depicts, with paper thin characters, the subtlety of a brick and the air of superiority as if what it's doing is so unique, so vital and so boundary-stretching that it should be commended for doing something different for a comic book movie.

Unfortunately, every quality I listed above is totally emblematic of a comic book movie. For all the talk of this being not your grandma's cup of DC, this is through and through as vacuously entertaining, as breezily enjoyable and as thrillingly forgettable as any movie in the MCU.

Let's start with the lead performance, because that's where much of the attention is. Phoenix is very good in an extremely thin role, but ultimately is only offering variations on roles he's done before and done better. Fleck here is a mix of the angry anti-social Quell in The Master, the explosive Joe in You Were Never Really Here and sad sack Theodore in Her, but it's all surface work. We're told everything that is wrong with his character: family history; mental illnesses; hang-ups on friends and relationships. These are spelt out to us in Todd Phillips' script, who couldn't think of a way to communicate his ideas without Phoenix explicitly saying it to a social worker or writing it down in a journal (honestly, his lack of subtlety when it comes to third-act imagery - think the Waynes - is mindblowing). Phoenix is underserved by a character who is too pitiful to loathe in the enjoyable way we should a Joker, but too unsympathetic to pull for as an anti-hero. Compare his work here - all tics and physicality - to his work in Her or Inherent Vice; there was humanity underneath those characters, pasts and desires and sorrow and layers that were all hinted at through the extraordinary performances of its leading man. Here, it's just affectation. He dances because the script dictates he should because he's crazy and unpredictable. He smokes in slow motion because the director thinks that exudes 70s cinematic cool. It's all artifice; not once does Arthur feel real. He's a facsimile of what it probably feels like to be ill and on the outskirts of society, an amalgamation of all those feelings wrapped within one discomfortingly gaunt figure. To compare him to a Scorsese leading man, it's Phoenix's Revenant (another film whose explicit storytelling is to its detriment); a really strong physical performance which cannot match the complexity of past roles (and DiCaprio would prove with OUATIH - a gorgeous character with a performance to match - that one's best work can come after an undeserved Oscar; Phoenix deserves it far more for three or four of his past performances).

Phillips is so in love with Phoenix's performance and the character of the Joker - who has none of the charm or unpredictability of Ledger, nor the humour or suaveness of Nicholson, and not even the uniqueness of Leto's car crash to stand out - that his sympathies become very hard to decipher, and that makes for a jarringly awkward watch. All along we're shown and told that nothing is Arthur's fault: his poor luck at work down to thieving youth gangs and duplicitous co-workers; his mental illness a product of his parents; society's fault for not understanding him or his ailments. And when violence comes more frequently (for the first instance of it is more ambiguous), Phillips is too seduced by his protagonist to coax his script to adopt a more pointed stance on his actions. This is an 'eat the rich, fuck society' movie far more than it is an indictment of a super villain.

There's thrills to be had: the performances are uniformly strong (if woefully underwritten; Zazie Beets and Bob De Niro have absolutely nothing to work with), both score and soundtrack are excellent, it's paced well and it has a suitably grimy aesthetic. It's technically proficient throughout, and it's certainly far more interesting than watching CGI minions get punched for two hours. But it is a morally dubious film, and due to its pretentions to be more than just a comic book movie, it cannot be written off as just a comic book movie. Saying 'it's not supposed to have a message' doesn't fly here. It has a message. It's just incredibly flawed, woefully misdirected and irresponsibly depicted.

To stretch the Scorsese comparison a little further, Goodfellas and Wolf of Wall Street initially glorify its characters' lifestyles and vices so it can drive them to excess and show the long hard journey to the bottom of the barrel; it seduces you with its pleasures before making you sick of the company you're keeping. Joker doesn't even attempt to do this; its first act desperately wants you to feel sympathy for Fleck, before depicting wanton acts of violence without the sophistication to frame them as negative in the context of the scene. Yes, a sensible person should look and say the things that Fleck does are bad. But when the film paints him in a Messianic, rock-star fashion come the end, there hasn't been enough time for the audience to grow sick of his actions the way we do Henry Hill's or Jordan Belfort's. We are supposed to revel in him dancing down the stairs to Gary Glitter (dubious in itself) after he murders innocents. We're supposed to laugh at his pratfalls in the final few frames. We're supposed to be in awe of Phoenix's confident stroll, mid-drag on a cigarette, as he literally walks in the opposite way to the police. The morals of this movie are all over the place. And that's what makes for the funniest joke of all.

That, in essence, Todd Phillips tried aping Scorsese in style, forgot to add the substance, and ended up doing what almost every single director who has taken a Marvel or DC comic property has done: made nothing more than a decent film.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,449
Kinda get the feeling that Nolan realized that his next film would receive this same criticism so he cast John David Washington as the lead. Pretty ingenious, Nolan alway ahead of the curve.

But seriously that is a pretty bad take.

Oh, so he was a diversity hire to avoid Twitter pitchforks, huh?

🙄
Joker is defined solely by its influences. It wears its debt to Scorsese on its sleeve, embracing the concepts of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver as plainly as the red nose on Joker's face.

But there's another few influences it has tried to ignore, in its ambition to be a truly great movie.

It has very good cinematography and colour grading.

It has an eclectic and funky needle drop sound track.

It has an engaging lead performance by a charismatic actor.

It has a leaden, on-the-nose script, with no depth or subtext whatsoever, with conflicted intentions about the violence it depicts, with paper thin characters, the subtlety of a brick and the air of superiority as if what it's doing is so unique, so vital and so boundary-stretching that it should be commended for doing something different for a comic book movie.

Unfortunately, every quality I listed above is totally emblematic of a comic book movie. For all the talk of this being not your grandma's cup of DC, this is through and through as vacuously entertaining, as breezily enjoyable and as thrillingly forgettable as any movie in the MCU.

Let's start with the lead performance, because that's where much of the attention is. Phoenix is very good in an extremely thin role, but ultimately is only offering variations on roles he's done before and done better. Fleck here is a mix of the angry anti-social Quell in The Master, the explosive Joe in You Were Never Really Here and sad sack Theodore in Her, but it's all surface work. We're told everything that is wrong with his character: family history; mental illnesses; hang-ups on friends and relationships. These are spelt out to us in Todd Phillips' script, who couldn't think of a way to communicate his ideas without Phoenix explicitly saying it to a social worker or writing it down in a journal (honestly, his lack of subtlety when it comes to third-act imagery - think the Waynes - is mindblowing). Phoenix is underserved by a character who is too pitiful to loathe in the enjoyable way we should a Joker, but too unsympathetic to pull for as an anti-hero. Compare his work here - all tics and physicality - to his work in Her or Inherent Vice; there was humanity underneath those characters, pasts and desires and sorrow and layers that were all hinted at through the extraordinary performances of its leading man. Here, it's just affectation. He dances because the script dictates he should because he's crazy and unpredictable. He smokes in slow motion because the director thinks that exudes 70s cinematic cool. It's all artifice; not once does Arthur feel real. He's a facsimile of what it probably feels like to be ill and on the outskirts of society, an amalgamation of all those feelings wrapped within one discomfortingly gaunt figure. To compare him to a Scorsese leading man, it's Phoenix's Revenant (another film whose explicit storytelling is to its detriment); a really strong physical performance which cannot match the complexity of past roles (and DiCaprio would prove with OUATIH - a gorgeous character with a performance to match - that one's best work can come after an undeserved Oscar; Phoenix deserves it far more for three or four of his past performances).

Phillips is so in love with Phoenix's performance and the character of the Joker - who has none of the charm or unpredictability of Ledger, nor the humour or suaveness of Nicholson, and not even the uniqueness of Leto's car crash to stand out - that his sympathies become very hard to decipher, and that makes for a jarringly awkward watch. All along we're shown and told that nothing is Arthur's fault: his poor luck at work down to thieving youth gangs and duplicitous co-workers; his mental illness a product of his parents; society's fault for not understanding him or his ailments. And when violence comes more frequently (for the first instance of it is more ambiguous), Phillips is too seduced by his protagonist to coax his script to adopt a more pointed stance on his actions. This is an 'eat the rich, fuck society' movie far more than it is an indictment of a super villain.

There's thrills to be had: the performances are uniformly strong (if woefully underwritten; Zazie Beets and Bob De Niro have absolutely nothing to work with), both score and soundtrack are excellent, it's paced well and it has a suitably grimy aesthetic. It's technically proficient throughout, and it's certainly far more interesting than watching CGI minions get punched for two hours. But it is a morally dubious film, and due to its pretentions to be more than just a comic book movie, it cannot be written off as just a comic book movie. Saying 'it's not supposed to have a message' doesn't fly here. It has a message. It's just incredibly flawed, woefully misdirected and irresponsibly depicted.

To stretch the Scorsese comparison a little further, Goodfellas and Wolf of Wall Street initially glorify its characters' lifestyles and vices so it can drive them to excess and show the long hard journey to the bottom of the barrel; it seduces you with its pleasures before making you sick of the company you're keeping. Joker doesn't even attempt to do this; its first act desperately wants you to feel sympathy for Fleck, before depicting wanton acts of violence without the sophistication to frame them as negative in the context of the scene. Yes, a sensible person should look and say the things that Fleck does are bad. But when the film paints him in a Messianic, rock-star fashion come the end, there hasn't been enough time for the audience to grow sick of his actions the way we do Henry Hill's or Jordan Belfort's. We are supposed to revel in him dancing down the stairs to Gary Glitter (dubious in itself) after he murders innocents. We're supposed to laugh at his pratfalls in the final few frames. We're supposed to be in awe of Phoenix's confident stroll, mid-drag on a cigarette, as he literally walks in the opposite way to the police. The morals of this movie are all over the place. And that's what makes for the funniest joke of all.

That, in essence, Todd Phillips tried aping Scorsese in style, forgot to add the substance, and ended up doing what almost every single director who has taken a Marvel or DC comic property has done: made nothing more than a decent film.

This post is perfection.
 
Last edited:

haxan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,432
Phoenix's performance is intriguing, and the movie had a few bright spots, but overall I'm disappointed.

My major issue is the cult of Joker storyline. I don't buy a cult of anarchistic "vigilantes" coming together from a triple murder of some assholes without a leader instigating it. The ending definitely implies some events happened only in the Joker's head, but there is evidence of the cult shown throughout the movie after the murders, and in one of the few scenes Phoenix is not in, where De Niro is talking to his segment producer about whether it's a good idea to have him on, the cult is mentioned, showing they are real in the world of the movie. If someone's answer to that is "Joker could have been imagining them talking without him being in the room," then, well, what was the entire point of this movie if it's most deliberate plot points are ambiguous?

My general feeling is that the movie is overwrought and out of its league. If it weren't so dour, I think it would've been a big improvement. It works best viewed as a shallow comic book movie, but it so wants to be seen as "legitimate." It's idea of depth is directly referencing Taxi Drive and The King of Comedy repeatedly. It's commentary on mental health, the mental health system, and how society view the mentally ill is all shallow, but I didn't notice anything outright offensive.

A friend also noticed this, but Phoenix seems to be playing the Joker as "simple" for much of the early movie. We both found this trait incompatible with the "Joker we know," and it's also not something people get over or anything. I think it's fundamentally at odds with the Joker's supervillainy.
 

orochi91

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,801
Canada
So the implication is that the ending (at least a fair bit of it) never happened, right?

He suffers from intense delusions and narcissism, as established earlier in the film.

Did that ending with him on top of the car, being cheered by hooligans, even happen?

This will require a re-watch~~~
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Tbh, I thought this was a bad film. Going to copy past some of my thoughts from elsewhere

I'm not sure if I really liked it or hated it.


Mostly not sure what to take from it... it's exactly the kind of movie everyone thought it would be. It sort of just appropriates a couple of recognizable names and settings from the comics but they're never more than a very loose framework. Echoes of both Taxi Driver and The Master and a couple of other things that slip my mind. A bit of TDKR as well actually

It's one of those films which I feel like it's trying to make a point by saying that there is no point, or meaning, to any of the extreme violence and cruelty. It's just, life is really unfair and awful and they don't give a fuck about any of us and that's that. But that isnt enough for me, personally

It's set in the 70s but also feels like it could be set now because these loner killers are happening more regularly now, or are reported more often.


It keeps doing this thing where people wear these joker masks which are the same as the one one of the bank robbers at the start of TDK wears, which feels like it could be trying to say something but I don't know what.


It wasnt actually clear to me if Arthur was adopted or if it was a piece of BS by Wayne, and I reckon that's intentional. The stuff with Bruce Wayne is a weird nod because I dont think there's a way they get Phoenix to agree to a sequel or a long running universe of films. This feels like a once off, but they put Bruce Wayne in just in case it isn't.

Mostly it's just upsetting and bewildering stuff that you watch through your fingers cause Joaquin Phoenix does a great job at making you feel bad for these weird, tortured characters he plays.

But I think maybe it's a thumbs down for me. A really really well made but bad film

I just saw it and yes, my first thought was it's a brilliantly acted, decently directed bad movie.
It's worth seeing for Phoenix alone, but the script is pretty meh and it falls off a cliff in the last 20 minutes. "We live in a society" indeed, Jesus, that speech at the show.

It's also utterly predictable, if you've seen the trailer, you have a very good idea of what the movie is going to be like, without any real surprise.

I'd give it 7/10, after reading the raving reviews, I can't help but being a little disappointed.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
Joker is defined solely by its influences. It wears its debt to Scorsese on its sleeve, embracing the concepts of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver as plainly as the red nose on Joker's face.

But there's another few influences it has tried to ignore, in its ambition to be a truly great movie.

It has very good cinematography and colour grading.

It has an eclectic and funky needle drop sound track.

It has an engaging lead performance by a charismatic actor.

It has a leaden, on-the-nose script, with no depth or subtext whatsoever, with conflicted intentions about the violence it depicts, with paper thin characters, the subtlety of a brick and the air of superiority as if what it's doing is so unique, so vital and so boundary-stretching that it should be commended for doing something different for a comic book movie.

Unfortunately, every quality I listed above is totally emblematic of a comic book movie. For all the talk of this being not your grandma's cup of DC, this is through and through as vacuously entertaining, as breezily enjoyable and as thrillingly forgettable as any movie in the MCU.

Let's start with the lead performance, because that's where much of the attention is. Phoenix is very good in an extremely thin role, but ultimately is only offering variations on roles he's done before and done better. Fleck here is a mix of the angry anti-social Quell in The Master, the explosive Joe in You Were Never Really Here and sad sack Theodore in Her, but it's all surface work. We're told everything that is wrong with his character: family history; mental illnesses; hang-ups on friends and relationships. These are spelt out to us in Todd Phillips' script, who couldn't think of a way to communicate his ideas without Phoenix explicitly saying it to a social worker or writing it down in a journal (honestly, his lack of subtlety when it comes to third-act imagery - think the Waynes - is mindblowing). Phoenix is underserved by a character who is too pitiful to loathe in the enjoyable way we should a Joker, but too unsympathetic to pull for as an anti-hero. Compare his work here - all tics and physicality - to his work in Her or Inherent Vice; there was humanity underneath those characters, pasts and desires and sorrow and layers that were all hinted at through the extraordinary performances of its leading man. Here, it's just affectation. He dances because the script dictates he should because he's crazy and unpredictable. He smokes in slow motion because the director thinks that exudes 70s cinematic cool. It's all artifice; not once does Arthur feel real. He's a facsimile of what it probably feels like to be ill and on the outskirts of society, an amalgamation of all those feelings wrapped within one discomfortingly gaunt figure. To compare him to a Scorsese leading man, it's Phoenix's Revenant (another film whose explicit storytelling is to its detriment); a really strong physical performance which cannot match the complexity of past roles (and DiCaprio would prove with OUATIH - a gorgeous character with a performance to match - that one's best work can come after an undeserved Oscar; Phoenix deserves it far more for three or four of his past performances).

Phillips is so in love with Phoenix's performance and the character of the Joker - who has none of the charm or unpredictability of Ledger, nor the humour or suaveness of Nicholson, and not even the uniqueness of Leto's car crash to stand out - that his sympathies become very hard to decipher, and that makes for a jarringly awkward watch. All along we're shown and told that nothing is Arthur's fault: his poor luck at work down to thieving youth gangs and duplicitous co-workers; his mental illness a product of his parents; society's fault for not understanding him or his ailments. And when violence comes more frequently (for the first instance of it is more ambiguous), Phillips is too seduced by his protagonist to coax his script to adopt a more pointed stance on his actions. This is an 'eat the rich, fuck society' movie far more than it is an indictment of a super villain.

There's thrills to be had: the performances are uniformly strong (if woefully underwritten; Zazie Beets and Bob De Niro have absolutely nothing to work with), both score and soundtrack are excellent, it's paced well and it has a suitably grimy aesthetic. It's technically proficient throughout, and it's certainly far more interesting than watching CGI minions get punched for two hours. But it is a morally dubious film, and due to its pretentions to be more than just a comic book movie, it cannot be written off as just a comic book movie. Saying 'it's not supposed to have a message' doesn't fly here. It has a message. It's just incredibly flawed, woefully misdirected and irresponsibly depicted.

To stretch the Scorsese comparison a little further, Goodfellas and Wolf of Wall Street initially glorify its characters' lifestyles and vices so it can drive them to excess and show the long hard journey to the bottom of the barrel; it seduces you with its pleasures before making you sick of the company you're keeping. Joker doesn't even attempt to do this; its first act desperately wants you to feel sympathy for Fleck, before depicting wanton acts of violence without the sophistication to frame them as negative in the context of the scene. Yes, a sensible person should look and say the things that Fleck does are bad. But when the film paints him in a Messianic, rock-star fashion come the end, there hasn't been enough time for the audience to grow sick of his actions the way we do Henry Hill's or Jordan Belfort's. We are supposed to revel in him dancing down the stairs to Gary Glitter (dubious in itself) after he murders innocents. We're supposed to laugh at his pratfalls in the final few frames. We're supposed to be in awe of Phoenix's confident stroll, mid-drag on a cigarette, as he literally walks in the opposite way to the police. The morals of this movie are all over the place. And that's what makes for the funniest joke of all.

That, in essence, Todd Phillips tried aping Scorsese in style, forgot to add the substance, and ended up doing what almost every single director who has taken a Marvel or DC comic property has done: made nothing more than a decent film.

Damn. I can't disagree with any of this. As I said, I still have to let the film stew but you're hitting all the right notes.

That said, when you say "we're supposed to be in awe of Phoenix's confident stroll, mid-drag on a cigarette, as he literally walks in the opposite way to the police." You're 100% correct, but I don't know if it's possible to not have the audience be in awe of The Joker because he is The Joker. As you state, this is NOT Taxi Driver, it's a comic-book film. It's titled JOKER, people want to see the JOKER come out. They want to see him dance down the steps and brutally stab someone in the eye with scissors. They want to see him shoot a TV host in the head on live TV. We're expecting this all to happen at some point because we know, with precognition, that the Joker is a super villain. And, we've come to see him finally turn bad.

This is the major problem because the audience wants him to explode and becoming dancing, murdering, clown. The audience doesn't need to agree with his actions to still want to cheer when the finally snaps. It could never end any other way for Arthur. And this contributes to the muddy messaging.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Does anyone else feel that Arthur overreacted Like A LOT?
I mean, yes bad shit happend to him, but his reaction is that of a psychopath.
I was like, I don't understand, where is the anger from Arthur, the motivation. Or is it with his mental illness and a life of awful events just finally made him flip.
I suppose the film gives the explanations after the killings rather then before. Most films build up and explain before the character commit there defining crimes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
Does anyone else feel that Arthur overreacted Like A LOT?
I mean, yes bad shit happend to him, but his reaction is that of a psychopath.
I was like, I don't understand, where is the anger from Arthur, the motivation. Or is it with his mental illness and a life of awful events just finally made him flip.
I suppose the film gives the explanations after the killings rather then before. Most films build up and explain before the character commit there defining crimes.

General mental illness and instability. He isn't some rational actor with a purpose, he's just some dude with massive mental health issues that eventually snaps and tries to eventually rationalize his actions after the fact.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Does anyone else feel that Arthur overreacted Like A LOT?
I mean, yes bad shit happend to him, but his reaction is that of a psychopath.
I was like, I don't understand, where is the anger from Arthur, the motivation. Or is it with his mental illness and a life of awful events just finally made him flip.
I suppose the film gives the explanations after the killings rather then before. Most films build up and explain before the character commit there defining crimes.

I just figure he's an evil bad guy. You can sympathize with the Joker but he's a villain for a reason.
 

KillingJoke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,672
Movie was fucking awesome. Loved how all the bullshit outrage had nothing to do with the movie. The OST was nice surprise, great stuff.
 

Elliott

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,471
Joker is defined solely by its influences. It wears its debt to Scorsese on its sleeve, embracing the concepts of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver as plainly as the red nose on Joker's face.

But there's another few influences it has tried to ignore, in its ambition to be a truly great movie.

It has very good cinematography and colour grading.

It has an eclectic and funky needle drop sound track.

It has an engaging lead performance by a charismatic actor.

It has a leaden, on-the-nose script, with no depth or subtext whatsoever, with conflicted intentions about the violence it depicts, with paper thin characters, the subtlety of a brick and the air of superiority as if what it's doing is so unique, so vital and so boundary-stretching that it should be commended for doing something different for a comic book movie.

Unfortunately, every quality I listed above is totally emblematic of a comic book movie. For all the talk of this being not your grandma's cup of DC, this is through and through as vacuously entertaining, as breezily enjoyable and as thrillingly forgettable as any movie in the MCU.

Let's start with the lead performance, because that's where much of the attention is. Phoenix is very good in an extremely thin role, but ultimately is only offering variations on roles he's done before and done better. Fleck here is a mix of the angry anti-social Quell in The Master, the explosive Joe in You Were Never Really Here and sad sack Theodore in Her, but it's all surface work. We're told everything that is wrong with his character: family history; mental illnesses; hang-ups on friends and relationships. These are spelt out to us in Todd Phillips' script, who couldn't think of a way to communicate his ideas without Phoenix explicitly saying it to a social worker or writing it down in a journal (honestly, his lack of subtlety when it comes to third-act imagery - think the Waynes - is mindblowing). Phoenix is underserved by a character who is too pitiful to loathe in the enjoyable way we should a Joker, but too unsympathetic to pull for as an anti-hero. Compare his work here - all tics and physicality - to his work in Her or Inherent Vice; there was humanity underneath those characters, pasts and desires and sorrow and layers that were all hinted at through the extraordinary performances of its leading man. Here, it's just affectation. He dances because the script dictates he should because he's crazy and unpredictable. He smokes in slow motion because the director thinks that exudes 70s cinematic cool. It's all artifice; not once does Arthur feel real. He's a facsimile of what it probably feels like to be ill and on the outskirts of society, an amalgamation of all those feelings wrapped within one discomfortingly gaunt figure. To compare him to a Scorsese leading man, it's Phoenix's Revenant (another film whose explicit storytelling is to its detriment); a really strong physical performance which cannot match the complexity of past roles (and DiCaprio would prove with OUATIH - a gorgeous character with a performance to match - that one's best work can come after an undeserved Oscar; Phoenix deserves it far more for three or four of his past performances).

Phillips is so in love with Phoenix's performance and the character of the Joker - who has none of the charm or unpredictability of Ledger, nor the humour or suaveness of Nicholson, and not even the uniqueness of Leto's car crash to stand out - that his sympathies become very hard to decipher, and that makes for a jarringly awkward watch. All along we're shown and told that nothing is Arthur's fault: his poor luck at work down to thieving youth gangs and duplicitous co-workers; his mental illness a product of his parents; society's fault for not understanding him or his ailments. And when violence comes more frequently (for the first instance of it is more ambiguous), Phillips is too seduced by his protagonist to coax his script to adopt a more pointed stance on his actions. This is an 'eat the rich, fuck society' movie far more than it is an indictment of a super villain.

There's thrills to be had: the performances are uniformly strong (if woefully underwritten; Zazie Beets and Bob De Niro have absolutely nothing to work with), both score and soundtrack are excellent, it's paced well and it has a suitably grimy aesthetic. It's technically proficient throughout, and it's certainly far more interesting than watching CGI minions get punched for two hours. But it is a morally dubious film, and due to its pretentions to be more than just a comic book movie, it cannot be written off as just a comic book movie. Saying 'it's not supposed to have a message' doesn't fly here. It has a message. It's just incredibly flawed, woefully misdirected and irresponsibly depicted.

To stretch the Scorsese comparison a little further, Goodfellas and Wolf of Wall Street initially glorify its characters' lifestyles and vices so it can drive them to excess and show the long hard journey to the bottom of the barrel; it seduces you with its pleasures before making you sick of the company you're keeping. Joker doesn't even attempt to do this; its first act desperately wants you to feel sympathy for Fleck, before depicting wanton acts of violence without the sophistication to frame them as negative in the context of the scene. Yes, a sensible person should look and say the things that Fleck does are bad. But when the film paints him in a Messianic, rock-star fashion come the end, there hasn't been enough time for the audience to grow sick of his actions the way we do Henry Hill's or Jordan Belfort's. We are supposed to revel in him dancing down the stairs to Gary Glitter (dubious in itself) after he murders innocents. We're supposed to laugh at his pratfalls in the final few frames. We're supposed to be in awe of Phoenix's confident stroll, mid-drag on a cigarette, as he literally walks in the opposite way to the police. The morals of this movie are all over the place. And that's what makes for the funniest joke of all.

That, in essence, Todd Phillips tried aping Scorsese in style, forgot to add the substance, and ended up doing what almost every single director who has taken a Marvel or DC comic property has done: made nothing more than a decent film.
Holy shit n8
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Joker is defined solely by its influences. It wears its debt to Scorsese on its sleeve, embracing the concepts of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver as plainly as the red nose on Joker's face.

But there's another few influences it has tried to ignore, in its ambition to be a truly great movie.

It has very good cinematography and colour grading.

It has an eclectic and funky needle drop sound track.

It has an engaging lead performance by a charismatic actor.

It has a leaden, on-the-nose script, with no depth or subtext whatsoever, with conflicted intentions about the violence it depicts, with paper thin characters, the subtlety of a brick and the air of superiority as if what it's doing is so unique, so vital and so boundary-stretching that it should be commended for doing something different for a comic book movie.

Unfortunately, every quality I listed above is totally emblematic of a comic book movie. For all the talk of this being not your grandma's cup of DC, this is through and through as vacuously entertaining, as breezily enjoyable and as thrillingly forgettable as any movie in the MCU.

Let's start with the lead performance, because that's where much of the attention is. Phoenix is very good in an extremely thin role, but ultimately is only offering variations on roles he's done before and done better. Fleck here is a mix of the angry anti-social Quell in The Master, the explosive Joe in You Were Never Really Here and sad sack Theodore in Her, but it's all surface work. We're told everything that is wrong with his character: family history; mental illnesses; hang-ups on friends and relationships. These are spelt out to us in Todd Phillips' script, who couldn't think of a way to communicate his ideas without Phoenix explicitly saying it to a social worker or writing it down in a journal (honestly, his lack of subtlety when it comes to third-act imagery - think the Waynes - is mindblowing). Phoenix is underserved by a character who is too pitiful to loathe in the enjoyable way we should a Joker, but too unsympathetic to pull for as an anti-hero. Compare his work here - all tics and physicality - to his work in Her or Inherent Vice; there was humanity underneath those characters, pasts and desires and sorrow and layers that were all hinted at through the extraordinary performances of its leading man. Here, it's just affectation. He dances because the script dictates he should because he's crazy and unpredictable. He smokes in slow motion because the director thinks that exudes 70s cinematic cool. It's all artifice; not once does Arthur feel real. He's a facsimile of what it probably feels like to be ill and on the outskirts of society, an amalgamation of all those feelings wrapped within one discomfortingly gaunt figure. To compare him to a Scorsese leading man, it's Phoenix's Revenant (another film whose explicit storytelling is to its detriment); a really strong physical performance which cannot match the complexity of past roles (and DiCaprio would prove with OUATIH - a gorgeous character with a performance to match - that one's best work can come after an undeserved Oscar; Phoenix deserves it far more for three or four of his past performances).

Phillips is so in love with Phoenix's performance and the character of the Joker - who has none of the charm or unpredictability of Ledger, nor the humour or suaveness of Nicholson, and not even the uniqueness of Leto's car crash to stand out - that his sympathies become very hard to decipher, and that makes for a jarringly awkward watch. All along we're shown and told that nothing is Arthur's fault: his poor luck at work down to thieving youth gangs and duplicitous co-workers; his mental illness a product of his parents; society's fault for not understanding him or his ailments. And when violence comes more frequently (for the first instance of it is more ambiguous), Phillips is too seduced by his protagonist to coax his script to adopt a more pointed stance on his actions. This is an 'eat the rich, fuck society' movie far more than it is an indictment of a super villain.

There's thrills to be had: the performances are uniformly strong (if woefully underwritten; Zazie Beets and Bob De Niro have absolutely nothing to work with), both score and soundtrack are excellent, it's paced well and it has a suitably grimy aesthetic. It's technically proficient throughout, and it's certainly far more interesting than watching CGI minions get punched for two hours. But it is a morally dubious film, and due to its pretentions to be more than just a comic book movie, it cannot be written off as just a comic book movie. Saying 'it's not supposed to have a message' doesn't fly here. It has a message. It's just incredibly flawed, woefully misdirected and irresponsibly depicted.

To stretch the Scorsese comparison a little further, Goodfellas and Wolf of Wall Street initially glorify its characters' lifestyles and vices so it can drive them to excess and show the long hard journey to the bottom of the barrel; it seduces you with its pleasures before making you sick of the company you're keeping. Joker doesn't even attempt to do this; its first act desperately wants you to feel sympathy for Fleck, before depicting wanton acts of violence without the sophistication to frame them as negative in the context of the scene. Yes, a sensible person should look and say the things that Fleck does are bad. But when the film paints him in a Messianic, rock-star fashion come the end, there hasn't been enough time for the audience to grow sick of his actions the way we do Henry Hill's or Jordan Belfort's. We are supposed to revel in him dancing down the stairs to Gary Glitter (dubious in itself) after he murders innocents. We're supposed to laugh at his pratfalls in the final few frames. We're supposed to be in awe of Phoenix's confident stroll, mid-drag on a cigarette, as he literally walks in the opposite way to the police. The morals of this movie are all over the place. And that's what makes for the funniest joke of all.

That, in essence, Todd Phillips tried aping Scorsese in style, forgot to add the substance, and ended up doing what almost every single director who has taken a Marvel or DC comic property has done: made nothing more than a decent film.

Brilliant critique, even if I happen to disagree. The performance beneath Phoenix's laughter fascinated me, he stiffens up and strains against the laugh, and I saw fear, self-hatred and physical pain in his eyes. The social anxiety of waiting for it to bark out at any moment was torturous. Phoenix made it feel truly involuntary in a way that reminded me of DiCaprio's incredible stammer in Once...

And that fuckin' music cue, man. It absolutely feels like a "cool rock and roll victory strut" when it SHOULD BE underscored with that Guðnadóttir shit, giving that staircase scene the eerie majesty befitting Arthur Fleck fully abandoning his humanity to become the theatrically evil Clown Prince of Crime.
 

obin_gam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,030
Sollefteå, Sweden
Does anyone else feel that Arthur overreacted Like A LOT?
I mean, yes bad shit happend to him, but his reaction is that of a psychopath.
I was like, I don't understand, where is the anger from Arthur, the motivation. Or is it with his mental illness and a life of awful events just finally made him flip.
I suppose the film gives the explanations after the killings rather then before. Most films build up and explain before the character commit there defining crimes.
What?
He had 7 antipsychotic drugs he explicitly said in the movie he had stopped taking.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,264
Wow, this was very disturbing, but in a good way. Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker was like nothing I've ever seen from the character. The laughter is sad and haunting. The music is so freaking good like WOW. I loved every bit about this movie but, I just wished we could've seen more of Joaquin as the Joker.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I just figure he's an evil bad guy. You can sympathize with the Joker but he's a villain for a reason.

I don't sympathise with him at all, letting out anger by hurting and murdering other people is senseless and cowardly.

At least when the joker killed ppl in the dark Knight he had a purpose.

Like when those guys attacked him on the train, OK he shot one, which is still to much, but shooting the others makes no sense., same goes for killing his clown friend.
When he killed de Niro that was a bit better because he had a reason to.

This joker movie is like a documentary of a mass shooter.