The flashback is sadly needed a lot of audience would probably not get it.
I did like the touch of when they are in the restaurant. The guy behind the counter is looking at him. As Arthur must have been talking to himself loudly.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
JOKER |OT| Viviamo in una società |SPOILERS|
- Thread starter Cpt-GargameL
- Start date
The flashback is sadly needed a lot of audience would probably not get it.
I did like the touch of when they are in the restaurant. The guy behind the counter is looking at him. As Arthur must have been talking to himself loudly.
As I posted in other thread I'm still digesting the movie but my feeling is the same as yours. What a great scene. That sequence was perfect.
Simply amazing, the talk-show scene was perfect.
Joaquin is the GOAT.
Joker is by far the best comic movie since The Dark Knight.
I really want a standalone Batman movie with Joaquin as the Joker, i wonder who they are going to cast for The Batman.
Jared Leto must feel really sad, sandwiched between Ledger and Phoenix.
DC has potential, they just need to get their shit together.
Aquaman and Shazam were good, but Joker IS KINO.
Joaquin is the GOAT.
Joker is by far the best comic movie since The Dark Knight.
I really want a standalone Batman movie with Joaquin as the Joker, i wonder who they are going to cast for The Batman.
Jared Leto must feel really sad, sandwiched between Ledger and Phoenix.
DC has potential, they just need to get their shit together.
Aquaman and Shazam were good, but Joker IS KINO.
No plot at all
Phoenix was dope
Soundtrack was mostly dumb
You weren't made to care about anyone
Killed two black women off screen for no reason
Just below average film 4/10
Phoenix was dope
Soundtrack was mostly dumb
You weren't made to care about anyone
Killed two black women off screen for no reason
Just below average film 4/10
I second this. The plot is dumb as fuck. And the movie make a huge disservice to people with mental health issues.
Its kind of impressive how awful the music needle drops are in this. Might actually be worse than Pitbull in Aquaman
I thought it was good not great...but i definitely think we're going to be talking about this film for a while. It's going to be an important film.
I did feel uneasy watching it - and I don't mind that. It made me feel more than a lot of movies out there.
I did feel uneasy watching it - and I don't mind that. It made me feel more than a lot of movies out there.
I get why it is (and will probably always be) divisive but I loved it and I think they managed to do on film what Alan Moore did with The Killing Joke; make the character sympathetic without ever letting us forget he's still very much a monster.
Actually, I think it's a better origin story than The Killing Joke, which is really saying something.
Actually, I think it's a better origin story than The Killing Joke, which is really saying something.
I can't say anything that hasnt been said. Movie was fucking masterclass. I enjoy the MCU for what it is like which is like empty calorie entertainment. Joker was like a endless buffet and I wanted more and simply couldn't stop feeling sucked in, it grabbed me from the jump.
OP
OP
I believe it was necessary. Not everyone would have gotten what happened. For example, I had mentioned to a group of people I was with how insane it was that he imagined those scenes with her and I had to explain to a cousin of mine "remember when he was in her apartment and she was like you're in the wrong place, get out? Etc" he didn't even get that it was all imagined even AFTER the flashbacks, or perhaps he wasn't paying much attention but whatever the case may be, not everyone would have figured that out so to have it in there was ok in my book.
One thing I didn't understand is, why would they allow a mentally ill woman adopt a child? Or did they not know this about her until after she adopted him?
If they knew she was sick and abusive, as documented in those records at Gotham state hosp, then why would they allow her to keep him?
And yes, the flashback was totally unnecessary
If they knew she was sick and abusive, as documented in those records at Gotham state hosp, then why would they allow her to keep him?
And yes, the flashback was totally unnecessary
OP
OP
I felt like the very little we got of him as Joker was such a tease and left a desire for more. From the moment he was dancing on the stairs till the very end where he smiles and spreads his blood across his cheeks, he nailed the character.
So like, are we all in agreement that the whole subplot with Domino from Deadpool was unnecessary , right?
Just got out from watching it.
Good film. Phoenix puts up an AMAZING performance as usual. The guy is a Master actor.
But I just don't feel his Joker. He's just way too tortured and not clownish enough, which I guess was the intention, but still.
When it comes to live action Jokers my list from best to worst is still:
Jack Nicholson = Cameron Monaghan
Heath Ledger
Cesar Romero
Joaquin Phoenix
I'm not even putting Leto here...
Good film. Phoenix puts up an AMAZING performance as usual. The guy is a Master actor.
But I just don't feel his Joker. He's just way too tortured and not clownish enough, which I guess was the intention, but still.
When it comes to live action Jokers my list from best to worst is still:
Jack Nicholson = Cameron Monaghan
Heath Ledger
Cesar Romero
Joaquin Phoenix
I'm not even putting Leto here...
Very pretty film anchored by Phoenix. I appreciate the quiet moments that feature the Joker quietly being himself. It must be a joy to photograph someone so naturally magnetic.
It's a hollow picture, otherwise. I understand the project is a character study but the players around Joker (Zazie Beetz) are given no material or presence. There's very little intelligence in the message, besides, which divests the film of any palpable tension, even in the talk show climax. Everything kinda went through me like water. Even the violence wasn't particularly uncomfortable, because the script goes through so many pains to frame all Joker's marks (save for his mother) as schoolyard bullies.
There's just not enough challenge here, which means a well-made picture with not a lot to think about after.
Oh and fuck that Zorro murder alley bullshit I don't need to see that ever again I fucking get it
It's a hollow picture, otherwise. I understand the project is a character study but the players around Joker (Zazie Beetz) are given no material or presence. There's very little intelligence in the message, besides, which divests the film of any palpable tension, even in the talk show climax. Everything kinda went through me like water. Even the violence wasn't particularly uncomfortable, because the script goes through so many pains to frame all Joker's marks (save for his mother) as schoolyard bullies.
There's just not enough challenge here, which means a well-made picture with not a lot to think about after.
Oh and fuck that Zorro murder alley bullshit I don't need to see that ever again I fucking get it
Last edited:
You could argue that for the others, but Zazie Beetz having nothing is the point of that character.
If anything his mother was his worst bully?
I argue the writers could have given even her apparition more to chew. That's more of a loss when she's a figment.
To clarify about the mother, I should say she's more organic of a bully than the workplace asshole and aggressive yuppies.
2 questions: who was JW, aka the girl that signed a photograph Arthur was holding?
What was the joke the joker cracked at the end? I suppose the same he did at Murray?
And if there's a thorough detail on the internet of what the joker's notebook looked like, do share. :)
What was the joke the joker cracked at the end? I suppose the same he did at Murray?
And if there's a thorough detail on the internet of what the joker's notebook looked like, do share. :)
It's signed by TW, Thomas Wayne and the photo is that of his mother (correct me if i'm wrong) :O
Some thoughts:
- the incel fears were wayyyy off base as it never really felt like Arthur's difficultly finding romantic relationships was anything more than a minor footnote; his imaginary romance w this neighbor was meant to serve as part of the broader theme of his mental illness.
- his background dealt almost entirely with his mental illness and how being shunned and bullied led him to violence. This aspect felt too surface level, which is one of my major complaints of the film, like they were making an effort to say more in the therapist scenes but fell short. Same goes for the classism stuff which felt like a tacked on theme.
- at the end of the day, I think critics wanted more out of the film than we got and were viewing it with the wrong mindset. It's still very much a traditional comic book origin story, down to the T. I too was expecting something more out there but it feels so snug in Batman lore and it's universe, to the point I'm upset we will never get a sequel probably. And when you view the movie as just a really good origin story, you appreciate it more. Joaquin killed it, the score and cinematography was also fantastic, 8/10. Just needed to go a little further with it's messaging.
- the incel fears were wayyyy off base as it never really felt like Arthur's difficultly finding romantic relationships was anything more than a minor footnote; his imaginary romance w this neighbor was meant to serve as part of the broader theme of his mental illness.
- his background dealt almost entirely with his mental illness and how being shunned and bullied led him to violence. This aspect felt too surface level, which is one of my major complaints of the film, like they were making an effort to say more in the therapist scenes but fell short. Same goes for the classism stuff which felt like a tacked on theme.
- at the end of the day, I think critics wanted more out of the film than we got and were viewing it with the wrong mindset. It's still very much a traditional comic book origin story, down to the T. I too was expecting something more out there but it feels so snug in Batman lore and it's universe, to the point I'm upset we will never get a sequel probably. And when you view the movie as just a really good origin story, you appreciate it more. Joaquin killed it, the score and cinematography was also fantastic, 8/10. Just needed to go a little further with it's messaging.
I second this. When he spread blood accross his cheeks, that scene was just perfection. I want to see more of this joker!
Not gonna lie, I felt really sad for him.
Also what was that last scene about? He made it up...or he just retelling his story?
I feel like I watched it entirely in the context of it being a comic book villain origin story. If this took place in the real world then it wouldn't have worked as well. The Dark Knight a great noir action film but compared to others out there it isn't the best but the reason it's loved more (applies to me) is cause of it being a Batman, which is one of the most loved ips for a reason. Basically, this movie does an amazing job of doing basically a Taxi Driver but in the Batman world.
What? No, she totally was needed. Though it was a smaller part than some people initially thought. Her role is there to show how Arthur can be an unreliable narrator, creating this love interest in his own mind, while in reality still being a stranger to her. What else has he created in his head?Maybe Arthur's Mom did a similar thing with Thomas Wayne. Also her part was needed to show a mother actually caring for her child and protecting them from harm.
To append on this, this is why claims that the film is a critic of modern society ring hollow to me. It's supposed to hold a mirror and make the viewers uncomfortable with what they see, yet most would have no problem disassociating themselves from workplace assholes and aggressive yuppies.
I feel that the most biting commentary the film attempted to make is about people's gleeful willingness to laugh at other's shortcomings, but as it stands it's just buried along with the therapist scenes in the pile of "how to make a person with mental illness miserable".
Even as an origin story, I feel like it fell short, because until the end I still can't reconcile the Joker in this with the Joker who organizes crime and goes toe-to-toe with Batman. Phoenix's Joker got away as long as he did through sheer luck and not wit.
(though I don't read the comic books, so the only Jokers I'm familiar with are the three from the movies)
Man, what a weird feeling it is coming out of this movie. I'm thrilled, out of breath, shocked, confused, and in awe.
I still don't know how I feel. I've read a lot of reviews and thoughts regarding the movie and I........ Agree with all of them!
Pheonix, the score, the cinematography are the main constants; they're all absolutely brilliant.
Pheonix was just incredible. He really portrayed a broken man who has been fucked over by life just way too many times to remain sane.
My main gripe is what is the message behind the movie? It didn't feel like the movie ended -- If that makes sense.
Is it a mirror on real life? Because the rich don't care about the poor themes hasn't been done well here imo.
As a character study on a mentally ill disturbed character, I feel the movie works. It borderlines on sympathizing for him, but I feel at the end it makes pretty hard to like him.
Overall it's a pretty interesting movie which will be talked about for quite some time I bet.
I still don't know how I feel. I've read a lot of reviews and thoughts regarding the movie and I........ Agree with all of them!
Pheonix, the score, the cinematography are the main constants; they're all absolutely brilliant.
Pheonix was just incredible. He really portrayed a broken man who has been fucked over by life just way too many times to remain sane.
My main gripe is what is the message behind the movie? It didn't feel like the movie ended -- If that makes sense.
Is it a mirror on real life? Because the rich don't care about the poor themes hasn't been done well here imo.
As a character study on a mentally ill disturbed character, I feel the movie works. It borderlines on sympathizing for him, but I feel at the end it makes pretty hard to like him.
Overall it's a pretty interesting movie which will be talked about for quite some time I bet.
Because I saw some discussion earlier that this movie could likely be a figment of Arthur's imagination or much like how he fantasized about being in a relationship with his neighbor, I feel that is factually wrong. The whole plot of the movie, the conclusion of his character and his descent into madness and ultimately becoming the Joker is exactly because of the events that led up to it. His mental illness of inappropriate laughter was warped into a mental justification of his actions. He ended up finding a stage for himself with the ultimate joke, the ultimate stand up routine of life. He eventually turned his inappropriate laughter into his normal behaviour, finding killing and torture genuinely funny, chaos endearing, and joy in the destruction of his world. He says as much to Murray, comedy is subjective, and the ending in Arkham solidifies it, in his subjective view the murder of his doctor was a punchline in his eventual escape. This is also why I feel that saying this movie has no plot or meaning, just a slow burn and all style but no substamce is disheartening. No one really payed attention to the metaphorical, and how everything in the movie is a deconstruction and interpretation of every aspect in the Joker's storied history. From the name Arthur Fleck to the iconic laughter and look, this Joker's creation is a culmination of a perfect storm.
My interpretation of the ending is that the joke he's laughing about was how his and his "brother's" fortunes had changed. Arthur through his infamy was receiving the best psychiatric care possible in a brand new state of the art facility presumably with all this attention focused on him even after the city cut funding. Meanwhile Bruce was now the abandoned orphan.
Or some higher up at WB forced them to splice the shooting in there cuz Batmans!!!!
Or some higher up at WB forced them to splice the shooting in there cuz Batmans!!!!
I really want to watch this, but I'll have to wait until it's on digital or Blu Ray. I don't want miss on Phoenix's whole performance and everything is shown dubbed here in Spain :(
He had it, that is the point. His mental illness developed to a point of inner normalization were it evolved into full on mania, or at least that is how I understood it. His inappropriate laughter while viewing murders, abuse and other violent behaviors was something he was fully cognitive of being wrong, until life beat him down. Slowly we see him lose his job, lose his public sessions, learn the truth of his mother and his adoption, get beat down and worn down little by little that he sees life in a new light. This new optic in conjunction with his personal wants and needs of being a comedian slowly distorted into mania. We see him amongst the rioters at the end, standing above all while his "stage name" is being chanted. We seem him view the killings of the 3 youths and murray as a punchline of his tragic life. Essentiallythis Joker is the King of Comedy, his routine the Killing Joke, and he will continue on as the Joker because he has found his purpose.
This is where I also disagree with White Room as unnecessary or unfitting. The lyrics fit as the lyrics essentially talk about leaving behind the past. Within the context of those lyrics, Arthur Fleck has been left behind, and the dramatic Personae of The Joker has left the station. The man known as Arthur Fleck has been left in the shadows, existing no more as he has no place in this ever darkening world of corruption and greed.
That sounds exactly like the Joker to me. We don't see enough of "Joker" in this movie to say that he wouldn't be a capable mastermind in this world because he didnt embrace who he had become until the very end. Considering how unassuming everyone was (unlocked doors everywhere, superficial security for the elite, ineffective police force that can't even contain a small gathering) I doubt it would be difficult for this Joker to get up to speed to what we've accepted from the TDK Joker.
The world portrayed here will never have a place for a Joker slinging Joker-faced bombs or fighting Batman in a moving rollercoaster so I hope you weren't thinking of those antics.
His outbursts of laughter were effectively unsettling. I know some folks didn't care for how much it was used, but for me, it created a constant feeling of, "Oh no, don't let it come out NOW, not in this situation." Which I felt was part of the point.
Anyone else felt the same way?
Anyone else felt the same way?
OP
OP
Some people in my theater felt this way, others were like "oh shit, here we go"
Yeah it said TW and if iirc 'great eyes'
it was his mother when she was young the same woman we see in flashback.