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TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,285
I think the biggest think with them going lower CU and insane GPU speeds is going to give some interesting results. As a higher clocked GPU makes everything else faster even if the total flops is somewhat lower. Rasterization is faster, command buffer is faster, all the caches have higher bandwidth.....this combined with their absurd I/O SSD solution, going to be mmmmmmmm........going to be an insanely fun generation for everyone. Consumer, and Hardcore enthusiasts.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
Based on what? a 12tf gpu does not perform identically to a 10tf GPU
CPU is faster on X, but thats close to a wash
Then you have the faster ram
Ps5 has the faster SSD

The performance will not be identical.
There are other non-trivial differences that will require more devs input to explain:

The PS5 have a cache-scrubbing engine which prevents costly GPU stalls when streaming data while rendering.

The XSX have sample feedback which might allow more granular texture streaming, and compensate some streaming speed differences.

Differences in the CPU architecture, both Sony and MS might have asked modifications to Zen2, and that can go either way.

Cache architecture and amount are is still unknown for both.

Cerny said narrow/fast is better than wide/slow for the same ALU grunt available. We have no metrics for specific cases about this.

Audio engine is different, PS5 uses a general purpose cell-like architecture, XSX is more DSP-like from their description. It might impact memory hits and streaming priority hits differently. And the PS5 side can help reduce CPU usage if it can be used for other tasks.

The additional I/O co-processors are quite different between the two, and they will affect CPU usage differently.

Regardless of specs, some important differences might appear in third parties because of the ease of development, or profiling tools, or more low-level access.

Considering the cost of RT even with very low resolution buffers, XSX/XSS devs having to target a 4TF console from the same executable might impact development choices between RT and baking, which would be a different decision on PS5, specially on first parties.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
Xbox Studios games all come to PC also, which means they would always have planned to be scalable down to lower minimum PCs than a Series S even. That's not an issue for them with their platforms, nor will Series S be a problem for any other third party games that will be coming to PC in addition to the consoles.

I am not talking about holding back. I am talking about using compute resources for other things like animation AI etc
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,261
Sure but that has nothing to do with specs. The One X is better than the Pro not on paper but in real life. A developer choosing to target highest resolution over performance or use the same res textures has nothing to do with hardware.

I responded to this comment:

The latter. There is no logical explanation as to how PS5 will be able to have better performing/looking multiplats than the more powerful XSX. Loading times might be slightly faster, but unless some devs actually hold back the more powerful console, you won't see the less powerful one have an advantage in performance/visuals.

And I explained why a game could look or run better on weaker hardware.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
The expectation is that Series X > PS5, regarding multi platform games.

So it would be surprising if there's zero difference between games like Cyberpunk 2077 & Assassins Creed
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,329
Disagree. I dont see 18%+ difference between PS3 and 360.

This time we are dealing with very similar architectures too, so just like Ps4 vs One it's hard to argue about (although believe me, people will, just like they did One vs PS4 which were also more dissimilar than PS5/XSX, DDR4 vs GDDR, ESRAM vs none). PS3 and 360 were quite different.
The difference is now you're tweaking LOD settings on the horizon versus 10m in front of the player. It truly is at the point of diminishing returns.

That 18% gap in real terms (omitting any other architecture factors) is much smaller than a 10% gap on consoles from a decade ago (it was literally the difference between having certain visual elements or omitting them entirely). Especially when one third of homes have 4k TV's. I have no doubt that was Microsoft's decision in coming out with a 1440p console. It matters to pixel counters but in reality outside of locked frame rates, sitting 10-12 feet away from your TV, your average person will notice far less of a difference than they may have in the past.
 

xem

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,043
There are other non-trivial differences that will require more devs input to explain:

The PS5 have a cache-scrubbing engine which prevents costly GPU stalls when streaming data while rendering.

The XSX have sample feedback which might allow more granular texture streaming, and compensate some streaming speed differences.

Differences in the CPU architecture, both Sony and MS might have asked modifications to Zen2, and that can go either way.

Cache architecture and amount are is still unknown for both.

Cerny said narrow/fast is better than wide/slow for the same ALU grunt available. We have no metrics for specific cases about this.

Audio engine is different, PS5 uses a general purpose cell-like architecture, XSX is more DSP-like from their description. It might impact memory hits and streaming priority hits differently. And the PS5 side can help reduce CPU usage if it can be used for other tasks.

The additional I/O co-processors are quite different between the two, and they will affect CPU usage differently.

Regardless of specs, some important differences might appear in third parties because of the ease of development, or profiling tools, or more low-level access.

Considering the cost of RT even with very low resolution buffers, XSX/XSS devs having to target a 4TF console from the same executable might impact development choices between RT and baking, which would be a different decision on PS5, specially on first parties.
Bolded the interesting. So when DF talks about shadows and ambient shadows and some texture quality in the latest Crash Bandicoot tech review, he talks about the base machines could have been the starting point for each, which resulted in lower quality areas in the 1X version vs the Pro. Is this the sort of thing your talking about?
 

Sky87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,862
Well you would agree that Xbox One X on paper is much better than PS4 Pro right? However we have instances like with Call of Duty where the resolution might be higher on One X, but it runs worse than on Pro. We've seen a few cases where the Xbox One X version of a game shares the same lower fidelity textures that the Xbox One has which are lower than a PS4. We have some games that release even now, that don't take advantage of either the Xbox One X or PS4 Pro. I'm just saying you can't just look at specs, because devs aren't going to give all consoles the same treatment.
Well yes, if developers choose to hold back or just not bother to utilize the extra power then that's the only times you'll see these discrepancies. I think something like RDR2 is a good example to show the actual performance and visual differences in current gen consoles. Both consoles are used to max capacity and there is a noticeable difference. Whenever this happens next gen, the same should happen ideally if they're both utilized fully.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
I don't think many enthusiasts are totally oblivious to some games being optimized worse on Xbox One X than the weaker PS4 Pro, and I don't think people expect this to never happen again sometimes. The question in the air is about the majority of games and if they will do something with the additional ~1/5th power increase of Series X, or if we will be surprised and almost everything stops at parity.
But even then, that's not even a straight 20% of additional power.

The CPU difference is marginal at best, the SSD on PS5 is twice as fast, with a custom controller, the 16GB memory is unified on PS5 whereas "only" 10GB is actually faster on Series X, the PS5 GPU is clocked significantly higher...
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,135
Somewhere South
Cerny said narrow/fast is better than wide/slow for the same ALU grunt available. We have no metrics for specific cases about this.

We don't know the specifics here and if it applies to consoles at all, but we've seen that before: Vega56 vs. Vega64. Despite being quite a bit wider, iso-clock (for everything, chip and memory) they performed mostly the same. When don't know the performance scaling characteristics of RDNA2 (and even less so for these custom architectures) but that shouldn't be completely out of consideration.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
There are other non-trivial differences that will require more devs input to explain:

The PS5 have a cache-scrubbing engine which prevents costly GPU stalls when streaming data while rendering.

The XSX have sample feedback which might allow more granular texture streaming, and compensate some streaming speed differences.

Differences in the CPU architecture, both Sony and MS might have asked modifications to Zen2, and that can go either way.

Cache architecture and amount are is still unknown for both.

Cerny said narrow/fast is better than wide/slow for the same ALU grunt available. We have no metrics for specific cases about this.

Audio engine is different, PS5 uses a general purpose cell-like architecture, XSX is more DSP-like from their description. It might impact memory hits and streaming priority hits differently. And the PS5 side can help reduce CPU usage if it can be used for other tasks.

The additional I/O co-processors are quite different between the two, and they will affect CPU usage differently.

Regardless of specs, some important differences might appear in third parties because of the ease of development, or profiling tools, or more low-level access.

Considering the cost of RT even with very low resolution buffers, XSX/XSS devs having to target a 4TF console from the same executable might impact development choices between RT and baking, which would be a different decision on PS5, specially on first parties.
This is interesting to read through. Though I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the audio. Xbox has a new dedicated audio chip that sounded like it was being compared to the one Sony is marketing heavily as Tempest. They seemed to say theirs helps ease the CPU as well.

Spatial Audio delivers deeply immersive audio which enables the player to more accurately pinpoint objects in a 3D play space... Xbox Series X has custom audio hardware to offload audio processing from the CPU, dramatically improving the accessibility, quality and performance of these immersive experiences.

That being different but used in conjunction with their Project Acoustics modeling tools:
Project Acoustics – Incubated over a decade by Microsoft Research, Project Acousticsaccurately models sound propagation physics in mixed reality and games, employed by many AAA experiences today. It is unique in simulating wave effects like diffraction in complex scene geometries without straining CPU, enabling a much more immersive and lifelike auditory experience. Plug-in support for both the Unity and Unreal game engines empower the sound designer with expressive controls to mold reality. Developers will be able to easily leverage Project Acoustics with Xbox Series X through the addition of a new custom audio hardware block.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Disagree. I dont see 18%+ difference between PS3 and 360.

This time we are dealing with very similar architectures too, so just like Ps4 vs One it's hard to argue about (although believe me, people will, just like they did One vs PS4 which were also more dissimilar than PS5/XSX, DDR4 vs GDDR, ESRAM vs none). PS3 and 360 were quite different.
What does an 18% difference look like to you?
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,469
Difference is smaller than ps4 pro and One X. If one game is native 4k in XSX and other is dynamic/upscaled 4k in PS5, the majority of people won't notice the difference unless they try to find it. Anyway, real confirmation will come next-month, but nobody should be expecting a big difference honestly.
If people dont want to notice, or care about the difference that is fine. All i am saying is there will be a difference. These consoles are not equal.
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,469
When we end up with stuff like dynamic res settling around 2160 on XSX and 1800 on PS5, or slightly reduced shadow resolution in certain spots, or some other minor changes... no I can assure you that other than a couple of pixel counters on enthusiast forums, no one will be able to tell the difference. First off, this isn't 720-1080, where perceptible gains are huge with relatively small increases. Second, there is a 42% GPU gap between PS4 and XB1, and a 42% gap in GPU power between the Pro and 1X. Thats a major factor in why you see a difference now. 18% gap is nothing in comparison
But people WILL be able to tell a difference. If the difference is what you described, then people will absolutely be able to tell a difference.
 

Don Dada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,093
When we end up with stuff like dynamic res settling around 2160 on XSX and 1800 on PS5, or slightly reduced shadow resolution in certain spots, or some other minor changes... no I can assure you that other than a couple of pixel counters on enthusiast forums, no one will be able to tell the difference. First off, this isn't 720-1080, where perceptible gains are huge with relatively small increases. Second, there is a 42% GPU gap between PS4 and XB1, and a 42% gap in GPU power between the Pro and 1X. Thats a major factor in why you see a difference now. 18% gap is nothing in comparison
So why can't Devs also run the game on 1800p on on XSX and switch on some more bells and whistles?
 

Lion

Banned
Jul 7, 2020
593
Can someone explain the reference for a person who has no idea who Chad Warren is?
Chad warden was PlayStation's marketing manager at the launch of ps3. He was unfortunately fired for inappropriate use of racial slurs.
The marketing videos he created, are very highly regarded and he had achieved something of a legendary status.
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
It will be obviously noticable . Will it be enough for people to care? Probably not. But it will still be noticeable . Thats all i am saying. And im directing this to the people that are saying there will be no noticeable differnce.

Obviously noticeable is loaded. What does that even mean? Noticeable to who? How? In what way? Based on what measure?

You can't speak about the subjective like it's not that.
 
Jul 10, 2020
3,598
In the end though, I don't think any of these is going to matter because the 1st Party Output between the two is going to be so different.

Sony is going to have their massive blockbuster games + VR + 3rd Party Time stuff.

Microsoft with have their massive blockbusters games + Bethseda/Zenimax + GamePass indies/AA unique titles.

I think while everyone is arguing about puddles and rocks in CoD2022, I think everyone else will be playing perhaps the best 1st party lineup we've ever seen on either console.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
But they are the same. And right , its not. But xbox is more powerful in ALL aspects minus the SSD. Will you not be able to notice the difference in the SSD either?

There are a ton of variables that are not the same. And that is even before you deal with the realities of game dev budgets and schedules.

At some point it all becomes a silly thing to speculate about. The only thing I would be confident about is that folks who buy either console are going to have access to some great games.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
They will seems most asked for this area to be strengthed. When I see IO mentioned in games I tend to think of density or dynamics and tons all at once.

We are are a few years since draw call problem has been resolved. Most devs have to be loving not being on jaguar cpus cause the gains just from going from them to ryzen is incredible. Even last gen on better apis draw calls were still limited by cpus not inherently both them and software. The limit is no more and devs can total flex up to that architecture max or whatever magic they can program.

For 7 years developers have optimized for Jag CPUs pertaining to draw calls and we have seen some stunning results. I can only imagine what the new CPUs can do for:
  • No. of objects on screen
  • Pop-ins
On GPU front
  • No. of LoDs per object (although this, iirc, was a function RAM and GPU on current gen system and will likely include secondary storage on the next)
  • How Primitive shaders would alter LoD development (esp. in the face of how UE V's nanite functions for non-deformable objects)
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,469
Obviously noticeable is loaded. What does that even mean? Noticeable to who? How? In what way? Based on what measure?

You can't speak about the subjective like it's not that.
Sure. People say they cant tell the difference between 30 and 60fps. People say they cant tell the difference between 1440p and 4k. There is obviously a large group of people that cannot see these things or care so little about it that is not an issue for them.

That doesnt mean that the difference isnt there. It doesnt mean other people also dont see the difference.

So while the Series X is more powerful in almost all aspects , and there will be a difference.....that doesnt mean everyone will care or see it . But that doesnt take away the fact that it will be there, and other people will see it .
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,469
There are a ton of variables that are not the same. And that is even before you deal with the realities of game dev budgets and schedules.

At some point it all becomes a silly thing to speculate about. The only thing I would be confident about is that folks who buy either console are going to have access to some great games.
Sure. I mean, really the only thing that matters is having fun playing games on the console you have. But it isnt specualtion. Xbox is still the more powerful console and it will be noticeable . Thats how things work.

Im sure there will also be a lot of xbox fans downplaying the difference in Sonys SSD.
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
Sure. People say they cant tell the difference between 30 and 60fps. People say they cant tell the difference between 1440p and 4k. There is obviously a large group of people that cannot see these things or care so little about it that is not an issue for them.

That doesnt mean that the difference isnt there. It doesnt mean other people also dont see the difference.

So while the Series X is more powerful in almost all aspects , and there will be a difference.....that doesnt mean everyone will care or see it . But that doesnt take away the fact that it will be there, and other people will see it .

If everything is equal it should be different. The point really is: will it be enough for anyone to care. Early last gen had stark differences. Those should not exist here.