User Warned: Inflammatory Generalizations
Your first mistake is assuming that the hardcore TLJ stans are rational. It's basically like a cult now.
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John Boyega expresses disappointment over Finn in Star Wars: The Last Jedi
- Thread starter BDS
- Start date
Your first mistake is assuming that the hardcore TLJ stans are rational. It's basically like a cult now.
you literally even have Oscar Isaac saying they should have so if I have to explain this you wouldn't get it
You're not at all wrong, and this is something I took issue with in TFA, but TLJ doubles down on marginalizing him and kind of retcons some of the things he was allowed to have in TFA (his StormTrooper status is downgraded to glorified toilet cleaner). I think that's when most people started really noticing how he was treated in TFA.
That episode was wild, haha. Just watched the show for the first time this year and i love it.
Sums up Finn's direction, though.
Dear lord, having to argue with them that emotional and self control were actually a part of the Jedi training (and that simultaneously training did exist and matter) was one of the weirdest online arguments I had ever been in. :\
YUP, I'm mehhhhhhh on TFA and enjoyed TLJ but for so long people were treating these films like hallowed masterpieces above reproach. It will be nice hearing actual thoughtful criticism like this that people can't hand wave away as " Angry manbabies", " sorry it didn't match your head canon" , and on and on
I have no idea why the bold is making me laugh hysterically.
You can have criticisms about something and still like it.
I feel like all the things you listed stop right at the point where Finn gets a whole bunch of courage and picks up the lightsaber not once but twice. The dude goes after Kylo Ren with a lightsaber despite having no idea how to use it. So it seems like there's goofy Finn in the first half and then badass Finn in the second half.
I don't like the movie but I don't hate it. It's the only SW film where I felt meh. My wife walked out not caring which to me is worse than loving or hating. We just can't stand the bait and switch from TFA and did not like his character arc in the TLJ nor his characterization in the ST overall.
I'm totally willing to concede that most of that came from what I thought the character would/hoped would be from initial marketing combined with Boyega constantly hyping us only to find out he was disappointed this whole time. Of course the novel for TFA didn't help with talking about how skilled he was and then I don't get that feeling at all.
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Using words like stans and cult isn't exactly conductive to promoting good discussion is it?
maybe someone will send him a series of gifs and condescending remarks to change his mind 😂😂😂
lmao definitely "SEE!!! SOMEONE GETS IT!"
in regards to Finn's goofyness in TFA - yeah no shit, this backpedalling that it was JJ who actually made him a loser is inane. When Finn is aloof in TFA it's endearing, but in TLJ it makes him look stupid. On one hand because he just came out of an arc where he becomes more determined and selfless, and on the other because the plot he's put in is so nauseating theaters actually groaned at its conclusion.
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Yep, I hate this.
IMHO what they should have done is make it about a conflict within the new republic revolution. Just like how the French Revolution our Russian revolution started out on the right path, then completely went to shit when maniacs coopted the ideals of the revolution and grabbed power.
With this as the underlying story, they could have made Ben's story much more believable and compelling. He could be convinced by some demagogue that the only way to complete the revolution is to embrace the dark side and turn on those old guard who are holding back the formation of a utopian republic, but one that ends up giving whatever manipulating Sith ultimate power.
As is, the overarching story is just an uninteresting mess. I'm probably not even going to see the third movie in theaters, but that's just me.
For me it was "here's the Deathstar but now it's something straight out of the EU that can blow up 5 planets at once in whole other systems"
Maybe I'm crazy but I would have liked to have seen something like the Republic building their own Deathstar (because this is how proliferation typically works) and the First Order hijacking it.
I remember a republic superweapon being one of the earlier leaks, I think it was actually a scrapped concept?
I wouldn't have minded if the main protagonist kick-started the ST by being a resident of the depths of Coruscant. That way they could still be a nobody scavenger that no one cares about while also showing glimpses of what remained of the Jedi Temple and whatever Palpatine erected in its place following the PT and OT. Would've been nice to somehow revisit those places and have dialogue with the Coruscant residents.
I agree. Things like "manbaby" are also gross.
This has been - in all honesty - the most civil and discussion filled TLJ thread we have ever had here. I think Finn's role in the movie is one of the few pieces of criticism that weren't co-opted by the alt-right, so it's easier to talk about it without people getting derailed.
He's had nothing but praise for his character in TROS, though.
In early TFA concepts the Warhammer was a Resistance superweapon, a spaceship so big and resistant that it could penetrate any shield.
"Stans" is a pejorative that isn't conducive to good discussion, but dude. To say there isn't a group of posters people who constantly browbeat others for criticizing TLJ is being disingenuous. I shouldn't have to name names so I am not going to. And by the way, those people have gotten PoC banned on this forum for criticizing TLJ's handling of Finn and how disappointing that was for people who care about representation in this franchise. I've linked to that happening in this very thread. My ignore list has several of these people in it, it's a real thing, period.
I think for the most part, even the people who really like TLJ (like myself) feel that Finn's plot was messy at best and just poor at worst. It was my feeling coming out of the cinema the first time, and while that feeling has dulled into acceptance, it does hold the movie back from perfection.
I'm not saying there aren't people who just blindly defend TLJ. But the implication is that people are defending something indefensible, which is absurd and disingenuous (when the overall consensus is positive). I have never seen TLJ "defenders" purposefully singling out PoC for criticizing Finn's character (and especially not with the intention of getting them banned), and hopefully none of this is referring to me, as I've personally agreed with a lot of those criticisms, including Boyega's.
Finn ends TFA helping take down the Starkiller base and fighting Kylo. Dude wasn't running anymore. He was brave. TLJ could have very easily leaned into that and his background as a Stormtrooper (his training, insider knowledge, etc) and presented him as a valued resistance fighter and being given whatever responsibilities and it would have been perfectly believable.
I don't know who the poster was but someone did get a poster banned for criticizing how TLJ handled Finn. I think the poster being non-white was incidental.
How does one "get a poster banned"? Either they broke the rules or they didn't, and surely it wasn't for simply criticizing the character. If it was more nefarious than that, I missed it. But I don't remember the ban(s) in question.
Getting ready for a TLJ rewatch before the 20th because.... I hate myself I guess, but yeah, how on Earth do you mess up a character arc sooooo badly and everyone ( creatives at the studio I mean) at the time was okay with it... It's just baffling
Hard disagree.
And there goes that same tired, "its all in your head!" talk. Like I listed out before, Finn's achievements and feats are awesome in TFA. Yes, he's "goofy/funny" in TFA but he still does impressive/brave things in the movie, and demonstrates his use as a main character.
The only "feat" he has in TLJ that's of any use is his fight with Phasma, which is undercut by shit like "chrome dome!" (seriously, was he written to be Will Smith in that scene?) and Phasma also being sidelined as a nothing c-tier character.
Yea, I'm tired of this, "but what about TFA?!" argument. Some people are being willfully obtuse here.
It's easy to see, as John Boyega himself sees, that his treatment in TLJ was way wacker than it was in TFA.
But maybe it's my black guy powers that give me the clairvoyance to see poor characterization of Finn.
I was actually thinking the same thing. I think the biggest difference may simply be that a lot of the posters you most often see in SW threads seem to not be participating in this one for whatever reason.
"rather than the focus on the realism introduced in The Last Jedi".
... eh? It felt exactly like a Star Wars movie to me. Realism like what?
... eh? It felt exactly like a Star Wars movie to me. Realism like what?
Maybe on this rewatch, try to consider what Finn's arc is instead of what you want it to be? His arc works, maybe a little shaky overall, but it works.
Plenty of things "work," that doesn't mean the shit doesn't stink.
He's an impostor and knows it. Why do you think they showed that moment between him and Poe at the Resistance base when the X-Wings are firing up, the assault is under way and Poe looks at him like "my man" and Finn has this guilty look on his face like he isn't joining the fight for the same reason?
He lied to Han about knowing how to disable the shields. He was there for Rey. If he could have found a ship for him and her he would gone off on his own. He wasn't joining an army.
Generally, if a movie or its pieces work, then it's not shit. What a strange thing to say.
I assume he's talking about Luke's crippling shame and depression.
Doesn't seem like Boyega would be interested in a future film where Finn was portrayed in a similar cynical view as Luke.
You really having trouble understanding this? Yes thematically his arc works but it isn't satisfying or enjoyable. Hence the shit works but stinks. To say it "works" doesn't mean it's perfect.
Who said it's perfect? I said it works. If you trust the movie and let it be what it is, it works. And that's OK.
I think the movie drips with an overall im14andthisisdeep edgyness
oh you think a hot shot fighter pilot is cool? no dumbo he would kill thousands and doom the resistance
oh you think the resistance are the good guys? who do you think sells their weapons and profits off the military industrial complex?
oh you like spaceships and hyper speed? well they need fuel dingus
oh you like jedis? what you want floating rocks and a laser sword to take on an entire army? you fool
etc etc ad nauseum
for all of the efforts to "remystify" the force, it feels like any other fantasy elements of the series are very seriously attempted to have a grounded reality to them
Am I the only one who thought Finn's story in TLJ was good and built upon his story from TFA and made him even better?
He's a complicated mixture of fear and courage and his path to fighting for the resistance isn't a straight line.
obviously there are different equally good and possibly better stories out there, but what we got is still good and impactful.
I love him in TFA and in TLJ and I'm excited to see what happens to him in TROS .
Boyega's allowed to feel that way, but not gonna lie it's a bit disappointing to hear and doubly so it's aggravating to hear it now, days before the next film. Honestly felt the same about Hamill. Though, I can understand wanting to get something of your chest and recognize that he probably hears the complaints we see so often (look at this fucking thread) and took em to heart and wants to convince those fans that in his opinion it gets better?
He's a complicated mixture of fear and courage and his path to fighting for the resistance isn't a straight line.
obviously there are different equally good and possibly better stories out there, but what we got is still good and impactful.
I love him in TFA and in TLJ and I'm excited to see what happens to him in TROS .
Boyega's allowed to feel that way, but not gonna lie it's a bit disappointing to hear and doubly so it's aggravating to hear it now, days before the next film. Honestly felt the same about Hamill. Though, I can understand wanting to get something of your chest and recognize that he probably hears the complaints we see so often (look at this fucking thread) and took em to heart and wants to convince those fans that in his opinion it gets better?
Oh man, these are both really awesome ideas...
It feels like you ignore the end of the film.
The thing he says right after being there for Rey is that they'll figure out how to take the shield down.
The first thing they do is follow his (Finn's) plan to capture Phasma and get her to lower the shields, all before they even look for Rey.
After they find Rey and are free and clear outside the base he goes back in to help bomb the place because the resistance fighters look like they need help.
When Han dies, he looks like he wants to jump down and murder Kylo and Rey actually has to pull him away.
The last thing he does is bravely fight Kylo even though he is obviously no match.
His actions at the end of TFA could easily lead into him being a committed fighter. It would have been absolutely believable.
I mean, if we are talking about being disingenuous, the very poster you linked to wasn't even banned for simply "criticizing TLJ's handling of Finn" but for personally going after another poster, repeatedly and against warning. But hey, you can say anything because who is actually gonna check, right?
I agree. I think Finn's moments in the latter half of the film were enough to sell him as being part of the team now had they gone that route, without having to retell it in TLJ.