Joe Biden's new ad is problematic when it comes to how it talks about China [See Staff Post]

gutter_trash · Apr 19, 2020

The problematic take is that we can no longer critique China on Uighur Labour Camps, suppression in Tibet, clampdown on Hong Kong, expansion in Africa before being careful with our language.

MM300 said:
Language matters. Americans, by and large, are very, very poor at separating ethnic groups from their country of origin. When people say China, they think ethnic Chinese people. So when the ad says, "40,000 travelers from China," do you really think the average American is going to think, "Well, when he said 40,000 travelers, of course he meant Americans returning from business trips, vacations, and other people of varied ethnic backgrounds." No, when he hears, "40,000 travelers from China," all he's going to think is 40,000 ethnic Chinese people. And the way it was framed in that ad, they made it sound as though it was a hoard of disease-carrying Chinese people that touched down and spread the virus.

Maybe you can make that distinction, but don't pretend for even a second that the vast majority of Americans can also make that same distinction. The fact that Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thais, Hmong, etc. living in America have also been targeted for hate crimes during all this should tell you that much.

I speak French and Portuguese also.

Same applies from English to French and Portuguese.

In French (Canadian Press and French Press) uses the same terminology as in English when journslistically talking about a foreign government = they name the Country because the Country by name is the government.

In French "La Chine" means "China" and in context of newspaper headlines it does mean the Government

DeusOcha · Apr 19, 2020

Dekuman said:
Where did say that? in anycase my response above captures all I wanted to say.

When I say you're missing context I'm pointing out the lack of something, not something specifically said. Fact of the matter is accusing such concerns as "cherrypicking whenever a China thread pops up" does nothing for the contemporary flight of Asian minorities in the West, specifically the context of America in this thread.

DeusOcha · Apr 19, 2020

gutter_trash said:
The problematic take is that we can no longer critique China on Uighur Labour Camps, suppression in Tibet, clampdown on Hong Kong, expansion in Africa before being careful with our language.

Yes because the simple request of changing vernacular just a tad slightly means nullification of criticism. Quite frankly, get out of here with this bullshit.

Xaszatm · Apr 19, 2020

Sure is real nice how people are just going "you're wrong" to the Asian American voices here.

Dekuman · Apr 19, 2020

DeusOcha said:
When I say you're missing context I'm pointing out the lack of something, not something specifically said. Fact of the matter is accusing such concerns as "cherrypicking whenever a China thread pops up" does nothing for the contemporary flight of Asian minorities in the West, specifically the context of America in this thread.

The.cherry picking I refer to is this issue is only every brought up with China only. The people you responded to argued we've used short hand like the "Russians" or "Saudis" elsewhere as shorthand to criticise their governments there are Russian and Arabs living in the west who face discrimination too. So the discrimination argument seems selective and meant to silence political speech

In any case I don't see why people get so hung up on that when the ad had a much bigger failing which I already pointed out

Seductivpancakes · Apr 19, 2020

Dekuman said:
don't see why people get so hung up on that when the ad had a much bigger failing which I already pointed out

Probably cause you're not Asian American but go on and tell us why we shouldn't be hung up on it.

wandering · Apr 19, 2020

Simple answer: yes, saying "the Russians" is also xenophobic and emblematic of the political instinct to dehumanize the opposition at every turn. So no, it's not the "gotcha" you think it is. The argument is further defanged by the very transparent fact that there is an ugly racial undertone to the dialogue that distinguishes how American society reacts to white geopolitical enemies from how it reacts to non-white geopolitical enemies. See: the difference in how Japanese Americans were treated in WWII as compared to German and Italian Americans. There's a long history of Asians being targeted as the insidious evil destroying this country, including the largest mass lynchings in American history, which were of Chinese Americans. Context matters.

So you can drop the "b-b-but the Russians!" whataboutism.

Xaszatm · Apr 19, 2020

wandering said:
Simple answer: yes, saying "the Russians" is also xenophobic and emblematic of the political instinct to dehumanize the opposition at every turn. So no, it's not the "gotcha" you think it is. The argument is further defanged by the very transparent fact that there is an ugly racial undertone to the dialogue that distinguishes how American society reacts to white geopolitical enemies from how it reacts to non-white geopolitical enemies. See: the difference in how Japanese Americans were treated in WWII as compared to German and Italian Americans. There's a long history of Asians being targeted as the insidious evil destroying this country, including the largest mass lynchings in American history, which were of Chinese Americans. Context matters.

So you can drop the "b-b-but the Russians!" whataboutism.

Thank you

Kay · Apr 19, 2020

The whole point of dog whistles is plausible deniability. The ad presumably was signed off on by multiple people. Either there is incompetence at multiple levels of the Biden campaign or they used the dog whistle on purpose. Pick your poison.

PickledCucumber · Apr 19, 2020

This guy just keeps making it harder to suck it up and vote for him... ugh..,

DeusOcha · Apr 19, 2020

Dekuman said:
The.cherry picking I refer to is this issue is only every brought up with China only. The people you responded to argued we've used short hand like the "Russians" or "Saudis" elsewhere with no pushback and there are Russian and Arabs living in the west who face discrimination . So I don't see why people get so hung up on that when the ad had a much bigger failing which I already pointed out

Call it different voices? I see a number of folks tackling the "40,000" remark, which is fine. My opinion is based on vernacular used, especially that of which can be changed ever so slightly (not really changed, more just adding a simple term ahead of it) to better get a point across instead of adding to an already tumultuous contemporary climate Asian Americans already face in the US. Context is key. Russia isn't being accused of spreading a pandemic in our year of 2020 and neither is Saudi Arabia, nevermind neither of those two countries being tied with sanctioned quarantine, etc. etc.

Dekuman · Apr 19, 2020

Seductivpancakes said:
Probably cause you're not Asian American but go on and tell us why we shouldn't be hung up on it.

Your right im Asian Chinese Canadian and was called a chink and go back to my country growing up. There is zero need to gatekeep just because we disagree

sapien85 · Apr 19, 2020

aznpxdd said:
USA is so fucked, we gotta choose between 2 old racist white dudes? Sigh.

So like every election before 2008.

Dreams-Visions · Apr 19, 2020

sphagnum said:
There is no good reason for the ad to use "the Chinese" so much. If they really felt like they had to make this ad, they could have replaced "the Chinese" with "Xi Jinping" or "China's government" every time.

It's pretty clear why they did, to be honest: xenophobia. Fear is the best actuator for action in America. Because we are pathetic.

Seductivpancakes · Apr 19, 2020

Dekuman said:
Your right in Asian Canadian and was called a chink and go back to my country growing up

When you have a Canadian politician making xenophobic political attack ads, feel free to speak up and voice your pinons and concerns on the matter. I would differ to your experience as a Canadian.

Deleted member 2761 · Apr 19, 2020

gutter_trash said:
The problematic take is that we can no longer critique China on Uighur Labour Camps, suppression in Tibet, clampdown on Hong Kong, expansion in Africa before being careful with our language.

I speak French and Portuguese also.

Same applies from English to French and Portuguese.

In French (Canadian Press and French Press) uses the same terminology as in English when journslistically talking about a foreign government = they name the Country because the Country by name is the government.

In French "La Chine" means "China" and in context of newspaper headlines it does mean the Government

You're making it really hard to be civil here, but is the whole "free speech" angle the hill to die on? I don't see people being banned for a lot of inflammatory rhetoric that a lot of us in Asian-Era find questionable and dangerous, but the one time people are really getting in trouble over racism you're just going to pretend that it's been happening this entire time? I mean, you weren't banned or warned for that one other sensationalistic thread about the Beijing hiding the origins of the coronavirus despite it being an absolute nonstory. Don't get a persecution complex.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Apr 19, 2020

wandering said:
Simple answer: yes, saying "the Russians" is also xenophobic and emblematic of the political instinct to dehumanize the opposition at every turn. So no, it's not the "gotcha" you think it is. The argument is further defanged by the very transparent fact that there is an ugly racial undertone to the dialogue that distinguishes how American society reacts to white geopolitical enemies from how it reacts to non-white geopolitical enemies. See: the difference in how Japanese Americans were treated in WWII as compared to German and Italian Americans. There's a long history of Asians being targeted as the insidious evil destroying this country, including the largest mass lynchings in American history, which were of Chinese Americans. Context matters.

So you can drop the "b-b-but the Russians!" whataboutism.

I agree that this is bad language that shouldn't be used and saying "The Chinese" instead of "The Chinese Community Party" is just very bad. However, this type of wording is just used very frequently regardless of agenda.

Al Jazeera's "Is the US an honest broker between the Israelis-Palestinians" wording is clearly referring to the Israeli government here.

I hope the wording dies out, but the argument that "The Xs" is only used for agenda purposes is not the case.

samoyed · Apr 19, 2020

"We need to go back to the Cold War era playbook" is really going to be the future huh.

Deleted member 25600 · Apr 19, 2020

CyclonatorZ said:
More and more, I'm getting the picture that the Dems know they have a turd that progressives will have to hold their nose to vote for at best, so they're not even bothering to make the slightest bit of effort to court us, and are gonna try their best to win as many moderates and "casual" racists as possible instead. I mean, this has been their strategy for ages now, but it seems like they're doubling down on it more than ever before - in light of the realization that, after this shit show of a primary, people like me are done with the DNC and done with the Democratic party as a whole.

This doesn't mean we'll stop voting, but what it does mean is that we're not gonna just bend over and accept whatever trash the Dems throw our way. Any chance we have to throw a center-right Dem out of office and replace them with a genuine progressive, we'll take it. And we'll keep doing so until we finally have enough people who represent us in congress and in the Democratic party that we actually have a fucking say. It could take our entire lifetimes, and by that point it'll probably be too late to save our country (let alone the planet) but we won't stop fighting for a better future. And that future won't happen as long as people like Joe Biden and Tom Perez still hold all the cards.

Start now. There are Socialists emerging in primary races.
Anybody in San Fran, seriously consider Shahid Buttar.

Shahid Buttar For Congress - Resistance for Real

San Francisco deserves a representative in Congress who will champion climate justice, human rights, and racial justice. #ShahidVsPelosi

shahidforchange.us

Deleted member 30681 · Apr 19, 2020

samoyed said:
"We need to go back to the Cold War era playbook" is really going to be the future huh.

the irony

TickleMeElbow · Apr 19, 2020

TeddieBear said:
This guy just keeps making it harder to suck it up and vote for him... ugh..,

I'll still vote for him, but if I get stabbed trying to buy pizza rolls or some shit I'm gonna be on the news trying to sue both him and Trump lol.

Like "Asian American stabbed in the frozen food isle is suing both Biden and Trump for damages".

I'll prolly fail but it's the principle that counts.

MM300 · Apr 19, 2020

gutter_trash said:
The problematic take is that we can no longer critique China on Uighur Labour Camps, suppression in Tibet, clampdown on Hong Kong, expansion in Africa before being careful with our language.

I speak French and Portuguese also.

Same applies from English to French and Portuguese.

In French (Canadian Press and French Press) uses the same terminology as in English when journslistically talking about a foreign government = they name the Country because the Country by name is the government.

In French "La Chine" means "China" and in context of newspaper headlines it does mean the Government

Are you suggesting that talking about the rise in violence and racism against diaspora Asians is akin to muzzling any sort of critique against the Chinese government?

But it looks like congratulations are in order for the French and the Canadians. They can make that distinction that the people are not their government or country! Awesome! Or maybe they can't. Uh-oh. Maybe they should start being a bit clearer with their language after all.

Dekuman · Apr 19, 2020

DeusOcha said:
Call it different voices? I see a number of folks tackling the "40,000" remark, which is fine. My opinion is based on vernacular used, especially that of which can be changed ever so slightly (not really changed, more just adding a simple term ahead of it) to better get a point across instead of adding to an already tumultuous contemporary climate Asian Americans already face in the US. Context is key. Russia isn't being accused of spreading a pandemic in our year of 2020 and neither is Saudi Arabia, nevermind neither of those two countries being tied with sanctioned quarantine, etc. etc.

Fair enough.

iareharSon · Apr 19, 2020

On one hand, things have to be viewed in context. I don't think the intent was to fan the flames of xenophobia or racism. But on the other hand, words and phrasing certainly have power - and it's important to be acutely mindful of that or you risk your words - intended or not - having the same harmful impact of intentionally xenophobic and racist remarks.

Democrats HAVE to be better than that, and when failing to do so, own up to it earnestly and be diligent in your attempts to fix it. Can't call Trump on his fan flaming bulls hit if you're putting out that same thinly veiled videos.

Deleted member 60295 · Apr 19, 2020

DrSlek said:
Start now. There are Socialists emerging in primary races.
Anybody in San Fran, seriously consider Shahid Buttar.

Shahid Buttar For Congress - Resistance for Real

San Francisco deserves a representative in Congress who will champion climate justice, human rights, and racial justice. #ShahidVsPelosi

shahidforchange.us

Already did back in 2018. I actually researched the candidates in the Democratic primaries, and voted for the most progressive ones. Unfortunately, this is Tennessee, and I don't live in one of the few districts that would ever vote that kind of candidate in.

However, I have recently applied to join the local chapter of the DSA. Have yet to receive a response, so I just contacted them again a minute ago.

Joeytj · Apr 19, 2020

Chairmanchuck said:
People dont use "The Americans" when they talk about the american government.

Furthermore the ad paints a totally false narrative that chinese travelers/chinese natives who came to the US were the source of Covid in the US, which in turn also "points fingers at them"...

I mean... yes they do. All the time, even in non-controversial media portrays. Brits love to say "oh, the Americans want this and that" in every political and spy-thriller and regular people all over the world do say "THE" *nationality*. "The Russians hacked our election", "the Europeans did this", "the French like to surrender", "the Mexicans aren't going to pay for the wall".

Obviously, when talking about historically oppressed people, you have to be careful, especially when it's about people who aren't white in the European-American context.

But watching the entire ad itself, it's clear the Chinese government is what is being referred to.

Nonetheless, you can't help shake off the feeling that the Biden camp is hoping to get some xenophobia out of this. Which is why they need to fix and apologize the ad. But they're correct to criticize both Trump and the CCP as much as they can. Because it's the truth that they both are to blame.

RockGun90 · Apr 19, 2020

TickleMeElbow said:
I'll still vote for him, but if I get stabbed trying to buy pizza rolls or some shit I'm gonna be on the news trying to sue both him and Trump lol.

Like "Asian American stabbed in the frozen food isle is suing both Biden and Trump for damages".

I'll prolly fail but it's the principle that counts.

Need to bring these coats back,

but replace AIDS with Xenophobia and FDA with Trump/Biden.

Sibylus · Apr 19, 2020

American ruling class goes back to the classics:

Introspection? Self-criticism? No, America was already great!
It was that other ruling class crony, conspiring with (insert national menace here)!
Cry into your flag lapel
God bless godblessed America
Seriously China must pay, we'll get the security establishment types (the same ones that start all the wars, we don't see any reason to change them out much) thinking about how best to do that
Let's go back to the normal that brought us here! Don't panic! We're out of ideas but let's press rewind to 2008!

Merv · Apr 19, 2020

Ratchetdude231 said:
the irony

Now I am imaging Biden and Trump debating....

Znazzy · Apr 19, 2020

Xaszatm said:
Sure is real nice how people are just going "you're wrong" to the Asian American voices here.

Except there are Asian Americans in this thread who have a differing opinion and take on the video? And as far as I've read, no one has blatantly told anyone they're wrong.

Cup O' Tea? · Apr 19, 2020

I don't like this strategy but it will probably work. Biden is clearly going hard trying to get conservative voters to switch sides. This will inevitably piss off left leaning individuals but a huge amount of those types will just sit out the election anyway. Why bother catering to non-voters?

wandering · Apr 19, 2020

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I agree that this is bad language that shouldn't be used and saying "The Chinese" instead of "The Chinese Community Party" is just very bad. However, this type of wording is just used very frequently regardless of agenda.

Al Jazeera's "Is the US an honest broker between the Israelis-Palestinians" wording is clearly referring to the Israeli government here.

I hope the wording dies out, but the argument that "The Xs" is only used for agenda purposes is not the case.

I'm not saying that the wording is solely the product of an overt agenda; it's the product of a political language that conflates the people of a nation with their government. On its face it might not seem like a necessarily harmful thing, but the ultimate result is a reduction of the people into political vehicles. Sometimes it doesn't manifest as outright alienation, as when talking about "diplomacy between the Israelis and the Palestinians," but when it'a about geopolitical nemeses, i.e. "kowtowing to the Chinese" or "the scheming of the Russians," it quickly becomes weaponized. Again, context matters.

Xaszatm · Apr 19, 2020

Mr_Moogle said:
I don't like this strategy but it will probably work. Biden is clearly going hard trying to get conservative voters to switch sides. This will inevitably piss off left leaning individuals but a huge amount of those types will just sit out the election anyway. Why bother catering to non-voters?

It also pisses off non-left Asian Americans who do vote.

Deleted member 2761 · Apr 19, 2020

Mr_Moogle said:
I don't like this strategy but it will probably work. Biden is clearly going hard trying to get conservative voters to switch sides. This will inevitably piss off left leaning individuals but a huge amount of those types will just sit out the election anyway. Why bother catering to non-voters?

I mean if that narrative helps you sleep at night. I've voted for Obama twice and Hillary once, and I voted for them in their respective primaries as well, but your reaction serves as an excellent example of the dismissive attitudes that simply take marginalized votes for granted, so thank you.

Icolin · Apr 19, 2020

Sibylus said:
American ruling class goes back to the classics:

Introspection? Self-criticism? No, America was already great!

It was that other ruling class crony, conspiring with (insert national menace here)!

Cry into your flag lapel

God bless godblessed America

Seriously China must pay, we'll get the security establishment types (the same ones that start all the wars, we don't see any reason to change them out much) thinking about how best to do that

Let's go back to the normal that brought us here! Don't panic! We're out of ideas but let's press rewind to 2008!

time is a flat circle

Seductivpancakes · Apr 19, 2020

Mr_Moogle said:
I don't like this strategy but it will probably work. Biden is clearly going hard trying to get conservative voters to switch sides. This will inevitably piss off left leaning individuals but a huge amount of those types will just sit out the election anyway. Why bother catering to non-voters?

I'm a voter, albeit in a non swing state, and this tactic is on top of him being a rapist, is just making it harder for me to vote.

Chikor · Apr 19, 2020

(thread)

This sadly rings very true to me.

Riboflavin · Apr 19, 2020

I've seen someone here wish for a "Democratic Lee Atwater" who would run a scorched earth campaign so seeing people defend this isn't that surprising.

Sibylus · Apr 19, 2020

Icolin said:
time is a flat circle

Chikor said:
(thread)

This sadly rings very true to me.

Yup. Will the ruling class learn something this time? Will the consent-manufacturing pundits? Will the pundit aspirants?

SolarPowered · Apr 19, 2020

Forty thousand CHINA travelers!?

Just watched it. The ad came off as very Trumpy in nature. Doesn't surprise me coming from Joe Biden, though. The way he basically bullied some people at primary events was actually applauded by some here of all places. People like strong white daddy figures and the Dem establishment knows this. The time for buyer's remorse is over. A lot of people are going to get thrown under the bus this election cycle lol.

wandering · Apr 19, 2020

Also, weaponizing xenophobic language is exactly how the Chinese government has cultivated such a destructive ethnonationalist narrative. If America is looking to best China in this geopolitical arms race, why adopt the ideological tactics of the latter's propaganda machine? What does that prove?

TickleMeElbow · Apr 19, 2020

Mr_Moogle said:
I don't like this strategy but it will probably work. Biden is clearly going hard trying to get conservative voters to switch sides. This will inevitably piss off left leaning individuals but a huge amount of those types will just sit out the election anyway. Why bother catering to non-voters?

Biden: "Hey come on over to our side! We'll do a better job keeping those Chinese out!"

Conservatives: "Fuck off lol TRUMP will keep the Chinese, Mexicans, Africans, AND Muslims out lol get on our level."

Tarot Deck · Apr 19, 2020

Jimmypython said:
They should have used "Chinese Government"

yup

samoyed · Apr 19, 2020

The CCP derives all its soft and hard power, such as it is, through their business relations with America. Unless America is willing to redirect their business elsewhere, there is no impetus for the CCP to change its domestic or foreign policy.

I'll believe the US wants to sincerely challenge the CCP's hegemonic ambitions when it cuts economic ties with them. Until then, we're just throwing AAs into the grinder to keep the goods flowing. Anything else is useless bluster.

Tiktaalik · Apr 19, 2020

So now both Trump and Biden have ads out pointing at the other for being 'soft' on China. There's heaps of ways Biden could have criticized Trump's pandemic response without taking this tack. This says something.

I think from this we can surmise there's a good chance that Biden's general election strategy will be to lean right and try to fight over the same open to xenophobia right wing voters Trump has been courting.

chrominance · Apr 19, 2020

First, the way Biden's messaging works here essentially concedes Trump's attempts to blame China for making the pandemic worse and washing his own hands of responsibility. It also does nothing to counteract Trump's attempts to pin the virus to the Chinese in the most terrible, xenophobic ways possible. It says "yup the Chinese definitely made things worse and you helped them do it!"

Second, it doesn't talk about the many ways in which the Trump administration bungled the handling of COVID-19 that had fuck all to do with China. Telling states they were on their own regarding medical supplies and then outbidding them for same medical supplies? China didn't do anything to make that happen. Recommending choloroquine as a COVID-19 treatment against the vast majority of medical and scientific advice, never mind the lack of FDA approval? You can't pin that on China either. There is SO MUCH you can criticize the Trump administration's pandemic response for. This ad tells me that the Biden campaign thinks it'll be easier and more effective to use the Chinese as a scapegoat and a cudgel against Trump than to explain in plain terms all the ways in which Trump has failed that can't be blamed on anyone else. And in a climate where we already have people throwing acid in the faces of Asian-Americans, that tells me Biden doesn't give a shit about the safety of Asian-Americans.

RockGun90 · Apr 19, 2020

TickleMeElbow said:
Biden: "Hey come on over to our side! We'll do a better job keeping those Chinese out!"

Conservatives: "Fuck off lol TRUMP will keep the Chinese, Mexicans, Africans, AND Muslims out lol get on our level."

This is the most absurd part. Why fight for conservative votes when Trump fits all of their criteria and the only way you'd bring them is to be MORE racist than him, thus defeating the point of even electing you? Does anyone honestly believe that any Republican will go to Biden over this?

Cup O' Tea? · Apr 19, 2020

Seductivpancakes said:
I'm a voter, albeit in a non swing state, and this tactic is on top of him being a rapist, is just making it harder for me to vote.

You have two bad candidates but one is worse than the other. Either pick the least bad option or just sit out. I can't see any other options here.

Seductivpancakes · Apr 19, 2020

Mr_Moogle said:
You have two bad candidates but one is worse than the other. Either pick the least bad option or just sit out. I can't see any other options here.

I'm well aware what my options cause expecting "liberals" and "progressives" to be better human beings than Republicans is too much to ask.

It's a long time till November, so time will tell.

texhnolyze · Apr 19, 2020

So people are going to choose between a racist and a racist in the next election. Just burn everything down already.

Joe Biden's new ad is problematic when it comes to how it talks about China [See Staff Post]

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