Bones does surgery on a torpedo in the climax of Star Trek 6, so even that wasn't original.
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JJ Abrams: “There was a plan”
- Thread starter Halbrand
- Start date
Bones does surgery on a torpedo in the climax of Star Trek 6, so even that wasn't original.
I haven't read all the comics, so I probably missed a few things, but here's some stuff I recall:
Prior to death shenanigans:
- During the events of Star Wars: Rebels Palpatine was attempting to gain entry into the 'world between worlds' – something like the Black Lodge - a realm that exists beyond spacetime.
- Palpatine set up observatories and labs in the unknown regions (space Bermuda Triangle); his motivations being related to sensing some source of dark side power being 'out there'.
- Palpatine invested in secretive research operations into force-related artefacts.
- Palpatine visited Jakku and thought it was of some significance.
- After his death, special droids bearing the face of Palpatine issued a variety of peculiar and specific orders to high-command Imperials.
- Operation Cinder was a posthumous contingency to destroy 'traitorous' Imperial remnants and victorious Rebels.
- The plan was to eventually draw everyone to Jakku, and then explode the planet, leaving a power vacuum for his 'pure' chosen few to assume control of the galaxy.
- As this failed, another contingency provided an escape for his 'chosen few' to flee to the unknown regions following a a secret hyperspace route calculated by Palpatine's research observatories.
- These select few set up the 'First Order'.
- Spoilers for Fallen Order
One planet of interest in the Unkown regions was Ilum: the plaet where Jedi took their kyber crystals. During the reign of the Empire it was strip mined for the creation of the Death Stars. The First Order continued this work to convert the planet into StarKiller Base.
- There is some significance given to the Emperor's flagship the Eclipse which was saved from the fate of many other SSDs, and was waiting for the First Order in the Unknown Regions.
- An observatory in Pillio had a 'compass' that helps navigate the 'unkown' regions. Luke Skywalker took this compass in the SWBF2 campaign. It may be seen in the background in Luke's hut in TLJ.
TL:DR The Emperor had a big contingency plan for 'the brightest and best' Imperials to succeed the Empire (The First Order). He was obsessed with the 'unknown regions' and force-related artefacts. It is suggestive that there has been some other contingency we don't know about.
Lucas stopped the OT because he worried about the logistics of doing more films. And his fears were quite valid.
It's a tragedy that his original treatment for the ST was thrown out. While throwing out Mr. Prequels' next works at the time not seeming like the worst idea, it turns out not having anything is even worse, as it shows. I wish Lucas could have done Episode 8. Or anyone competent.
Translate Klingon and fight with Spock about their relationship.
I care as little for the third movie as I cared for the third Hobbit movie. Soulless money grabbing junk.
You can sum up the plot of Empire Strikes back in like 5 sentences. That doesn't mean shit.
Those films may feel complete thematically, but in terms of elements that are supposed to continue from one film to the next, like the arcs of the characters, they work together less cleanly. They work more to serve the narrative of the film than an overall arc across the trilogy.
Right. They weren't a "trilogy" in the modern "we set out to make three continuous films" sense. It was just three movies, hence why the movies work better individually than they do as a group.
By comparison, the ST was planned as a trilogy yet the movies don't really work independently OR together.
Except for all the character development and major events events that set up the premise of the final film but guys keep posting poorly thought out hot takes. REALLY makes it apparent who to take seriously when it comes to film criticism.
TLJ was too good for its franchise so now JJ has the job of bringing SW back to being just above average
What character development?
Rey goes from being a questionable Mary Sue into being an Absolute Mary Sue*
Finn goes from being a major character into a side character
Poe goes from hotshot pilot guy to learning how to always follow orders
Kylo gets some character development, but the script makes sure he goes from edgy sith lord to maybe not...nope, back to edgy sith lord.
I'm not sure i'd call erasing plot questions and killing off most of the B-characters are really worth watching TLJ for. You could easily just sum that up in a sentence or a film crawl.
You're right about Film Criticism though. Anybody who thinks this is the best Star Wars movie can't be taken seriously. It would be like insisting M. Night Shamylan's The Last Airbender is better than the TV show. It has some good shots and some good ideas, but they come across as so half baked or completely useless that the movie comes off as nothing more than Style vs. Substance. Star Wars never had too much substance to begin with, but you end up with less of a story than when you came in.
*Is there a better catch-all term for "Fanfiction insert character"? Let me know if there is.
This some grade B Star Wars shit that should have been in part 2 of 3 when part 1 did nothing special.
Interestingly you could maybe argue Palpatine was suppose to come back in Episodes X-XIII and the ending of Episode IX was a giant hype tease of that comeback just as the rebels are celebrating beating Snoke/Kylo/First Order first wave then the real fleet arrives with Palpatine, credits roll. Considering they seem to have no idea what to do with Episode X, I could believe it.
Watch the movie./ Kids get it so i'm sure an adult can glean what are very easily readable character arcs.
So you're just a sexist got it. 👍
When I think of side characters, I think of characters that, if taken out of the film, would lead to the entire climax of the film being completely different.
So you don't know how to read character arcs or metaphors got it.
Out of all of the main characters Kylo literally gets the least amount of character development in TLJ and that's by design because his "let's start something NEW" speech included this:
where have we heard this before...
well surely it's just a coic--
it's almost like anyone who was paying attention could easily figure out that he wasn't presenting anything new and never was, just the status quo from someone doing his best attempt at emotional abuse.
Not answering fan theories with specific answers that they wanted does not=erasing plot questions.
They surely can be taken more seriously than people who apparently read headlines from sketchy places and then just repeat them verbatim... 👀
Not surprised by the reactions here, but often, when I'm writing, I'll have a general idea of where my story is going. Like, I know where I want to go, but I tend to keep the particulars fairly vague, and let the actual minutiae happen as I write.
Then in subsequent rewrites I tighten it and tighten it. Writing a story isn't always like a crime show, where you have a wall of post it notes with string connecting everything together.
A lot of the fun of writing is letting the characters and story surprise you. Some unpredictability. I have no doubt that going into this trilogy, the team at Lucasfilm knew where they wanted the characters to end up at the conclusion, but they let the individual film teams handle the point to point of how they get there.
Some writers are meticulous, sure, and have insanely detailed plot outlines, covering every single moment of the story.
My work flow is usually like this:
1. World building. I'll spend a ton of time here, setting the groundwork for what the backdrop of my story is. Once I feel like my world has enough meat on its bones, I'll work on fleshing out my primary cast of characters.
2. Plot outline1. This is really broad. Something like this: A, K, Z. I sketch out a rough outline of my beginning, middle, and end.
3. Plot outline 2. Now that the skeleton of the story is established, I start to flesh it out some more: A, E, H, K, R, U, Z. This would be a more scene to scene outline. Some key moments/sequences that I really want to have in the story. Sometimes I'll write them in more detail, and they'll get shuffled around during final plotting.
4. Plot outline 3. Probably my final plot outline, and is even more detailed than the 2nd: A, B, C, E, H, J, K, Q, R, S, U, X, Y, Z. I still don't have every detail mapped out, but usually by this point I have enough to go on to move to scriptwriting.
5. The actual writing of the script/story. Taking all of my detailed plot and then adding all of the detail that fleshes out a story. Sometimes things I put in my plot outline get completely scrapped because the story/characters take a turn as I'm writing it. I actually enjoy that part XD. Then I rewrite and rewrite and rewrite until the story is in a spot where I'm happy with it and can say it's complete.
Thinking that the Lucasfilm creative team behind the new trilogy was just completely winging it without at least a broad idea of where they wanted the trilogy to end is just foolish confirmation bias. They left enough room for the filmmakers to tell the story they wanted to tell, but the backbone of the story, that A, K, and Z? No doubt that's been there since the beginning. The how, is the part that the screenwriters and directors had complete freedom to do with as they please. I do think that Carrie Fisher's unexpected passing messed with their plans, and they were forced to adapt, but I think the trilogy is still ending where they wanted it to end.
Then in subsequent rewrites I tighten it and tighten it. Writing a story isn't always like a crime show, where you have a wall of post it notes with string connecting everything together.
A lot of the fun of writing is letting the characters and story surprise you. Some unpredictability. I have no doubt that going into this trilogy, the team at Lucasfilm knew where they wanted the characters to end up at the conclusion, but they let the individual film teams handle the point to point of how they get there.
Some writers are meticulous, sure, and have insanely detailed plot outlines, covering every single moment of the story.
My work flow is usually like this:
1. World building. I'll spend a ton of time here, setting the groundwork for what the backdrop of my story is. Once I feel like my world has enough meat on its bones, I'll work on fleshing out my primary cast of characters.
2. Plot outline1. This is really broad. Something like this: A, K, Z. I sketch out a rough outline of my beginning, middle, and end.
3. Plot outline 2. Now that the skeleton of the story is established, I start to flesh it out some more: A, E, H, K, R, U, Z. This would be a more scene to scene outline. Some key moments/sequences that I really want to have in the story. Sometimes I'll write them in more detail, and they'll get shuffled around during final plotting.
4. Plot outline 3. Probably my final plot outline, and is even more detailed than the 2nd: A, B, C, E, H, J, K, Q, R, S, U, X, Y, Z. I still don't have every detail mapped out, but usually by this point I have enough to go on to move to scriptwriting.
5. The actual writing of the script/story. Taking all of my detailed plot and then adding all of the detail that fleshes out a story. Sometimes things I put in my plot outline get completely scrapped because the story/characters take a turn as I'm writing it. I actually enjoy that part XD. Then I rewrite and rewrite and rewrite until the story is in a spot where I'm happy with it and can say it's complete.
Thinking that the Lucasfilm creative team behind the new trilogy was just completely winging it without at least a broad idea of where they wanted the trilogy to end is just foolish confirmation bias. They left enough room for the filmmakers to tell the story they wanted to tell, but the backbone of the story, that A, K, and Z? No doubt that's been there since the beginning. The how, is the part that the screenwriters and directors had complete freedom to do with as they please. I do think that Carrie Fisher's unexpected passing messed with their plans, and they were forced to adapt, but I think the trilogy is still ending where they wanted it to end.
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I don't get the whole Mary Sue is sexist thing. The term Mary Sue has existed for YEARS before Rey is a thing. Should we consider Gary Stu to be sexist as well?
What's funny about the Mary Sue complaint is that she...kind of fails at being a Mary Sue. Like, aren't Mary Sue's supposed to easily get what they want? She botches redeeming Kylo Ren. She botches convincing Luke to help her save the day (that's Yoda that does that). Like in the grand scheme of the movie, her one achievement is...lifting some rocks...
I find it best to have a single idea or theme you're trying to get across, then you construct the story around that, then you see what works and what doesn't, then in rewrites you lean into and enhance the good bits and trim or cut the bad bits out.
I don't think it would have been crazy to have almost a spec script sort of thing worked out for the three films prior to filming the first, esp for such an important franchise. But I do also understand that they were working on a very tight schedule trying to rush this all into production, and writing the beats for all 3 movies would have blown out the timeline by months and months.
Wow, thanks for this, dude! Always good to learn a new process!
Maybe, if anybody ever actually used the term Gary Stu as anything other than a completely hypothetical rhetorical exercise as you're doing now.
Nolan was the intended auteur behind the whole trilogy, there's a difference there. This Star Wars stuff is a lot more messy and was originally supposed to be three separate directors, so I think the plan criticism works here.
edit: Though I do agree that we should wait and see how it goes. High stakes improvisation can be beautiful thing in film such as with Apocalypse Now.
True... which is why Rey being in such high spirits is so odd. At the same story beats Luke is like "Ben.... Ben, please...."
No, the plan criticism is legitimate because there wasn't supposed to be a Nolan trilogy. It was never announced at the outset such a thing would happen. Each movie was something that just happened based on the success of the last.
Star Wars was different, it was announced at the outset at the start. This is an absolute rarity in film, franchises rarely are able to just straight up say, "there will be three films, we've already got the funding and backing for all three." That pretty much never happens. So, to go in with the absolute knowledge this will be a trilogy, something not even the OT had, and then go in without any sort of grand plan is fair criticism.
Because to argue that Rey is a mary sue is to not only micro analyze literally every single thing she does, but also requires one to outright ignore the multiple times she fails, gets into a situation she can't get out of or struggles to get out of, on top of how her backstory affects her character. Frankly, there's been way more SHOWING why she is the way she is compared to Luke getting lines of exposition to justify being able to perfectly take off in a vehicle he's never flown before in space while staying in formation with a squad comprised mostly of people he's never met. Compared to Rey struggling to fly the falcon despite intimate knowledge of it's inner workings and only succeeding due to an involuntary flight or fight boost from the force. You know...as an example 👀
🍵
I don't doubt there was a plan. The problem, again, was the whiplash between two polar opposite visions and the lack of focus on world building
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I think we are in agreement? Or was I unclear that I think criticizing the plan, or lack there of, is reasonable?
Perhaps I worded things wrong but I concur that the lack of a plan deserves to be heavily criticized. I was just trying to say that comparing the Dark Knight trilogy to the Sequel trilogy is apples and oranges. With the Batman stuff you have a single director making individual films that form a trilogy. With Star Wars, you have a trilogy declared with three different distinct directors and not one primary, authorial voice to form a cohesive narrative.
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I mean... the three Lord of the Rings films were all written and filmed back to back... (it helped that they were based on a book series) Why didn't Lucasfilm do that with these films?
The Lord of the Rings films are an adaptation of an existing storyline with literally every beat planned out, that's completely different than making a trilogy comprised of a new story. Also, the ST is essentially written and filmed back to back. TLJ was written and going into pre-production while TFA was almost done and TFA even had changes made to it to accommodate the story of TLJ.
That shouldn't come as a surprise, honestly. They probably only had things like "Han dies in 7, Luke dies in 8," etc. A lot of franchises plan things like that. It's not uncommon.