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AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
Okay, but if someone follows suit, does that make it okay for them to do it
The difference between a PS4 with PS+ and without is bigger than all profitable years in the history of Playstation combined (PS1+PS2+PS3 gen, loosing years not counted).
The question now is if someone does it and the advantage is so huge that it completly distorts the competition, while having virtually 0 drawbacks, do other companies realistically still have the choice do not do it?
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,531
They have quite a convoluted system, so just to make sure I understand it..

1) You buy upgrades to your characters skills with scrap in horde, that give you direct in-game bonuses.

2) You accrue supply which is turned into scrap, when you get duplicates in multi player:




3) You can buy boost that last a limited time and amongst other things gives you double speed supply drop progression and in effect more scrap, according to the Gears website:




So you buy more boost with real world money, meaning you get double speed supply drop progression, which is turned into scrap, when you get duplicates, that can be used to upgrade skills in horde for instance, that make your character better.

What am I misunderstanding here, because the way it's presented it looks like you get better scrap progression by paying for boost and thus are able to upgrade character skills faster?
I mean you still have to get the proper level to unlock the skills first(which is unaffected by boost) and using scrap to upgrade your skills isn't exactly uh efficient. You are probably upgrading one common skill a lvl higher versus a player without boost. Not to mention a non-boost person could theocratically be getting more scrap than a boost person. It's like saying any game that has had a pre-order bonus is pay to win, like Tomb Raider, God of War, Dishonored 2, Metro Exdous, the difference is extremely minor and temporary, true in the definition of the phrase rather than the spirit of it.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
Regardless of the video's quality, it is really shitty that MS exclusives will always, guaranteed, have some form of microtransactions. It's become a joke among my friends and I. MS loves microtransactions.

Why can't their big gun first party games just fucking stop with it already? Like, someone watch the skit/explanation of Gears 5's system (16:48) and defend that. Please tell me how this is okay. Tell me how the quality and aura of the game isn't damaged at all and how it's totally okay and optional.

Seriously, MS's love of these damn microtransactions just puts an upsetting aura around the game. No matter how great the game is. It's like hey there's this amazing game!... it has a very obnoxious monetization scheme but you can try to ignore it haha...

The microtransactions are like a big yellow elephant in the room. It's uncomfortable just having them there. You can call that a "me" problem, but seeing as how swathes of people agree... nah. Maybe, just maybe, microtransactions are the problem here.
With Gamepass they might need them more than ever if they want to keep the production value of those AAA games and make them still profitable. But maybe their subscriptions get high enough to sustain all that and still go out with a plus. It will be interesting how things turn out in the end. Same goes for similar subscription services.
 

battleborn27

Banned
Oct 6, 2018
693
Capcom started it, especially on disk content that was developed at the same time as the main game and under the same budget, but of course he wouldn't say that lmao.
 

Bede-x

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,423
1 and 2 are almost entirely unnecessary. I have completely maxed out skills, and I've never spent a single scrap. You can use duplicates to upgrade your skills. The scrap is just if you are super impatient. I should add that I have some maxed out skills on a few character, and I honestly haven't played that much. (And the game just came out!)

Also, none of these skills help you in VS. It's just for the co-op games.

3) This will become true, in time. Right now, everyone has boost, and it's active for something like the next 45 days.

Assuming I'm reading this correctly, I haven't misunderstood anything. Boost will give you (amongst other things) double supply drop progression, where duplicates are turned into scrap, that can upgrade your character skills in something like horde. So the elements are there. The discussion about whether they're necessary or don't matter because they only affect co-op modes, is a different one.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Burbs of Atlanta
They have quite a convoluted system, so just to make sure I understand it..

1) You buy upgrades to your characters skills with scrap in horde, that give you direct in-game bonuses.

2) You accrue supply which is turned into scrap, when you get duplicates in multi player:




3) You can buy boost that last a limited time and amongst other things gives you double speed supply drop progression and in effect more scrap, according to the Gears website:




So you buy more boost with real world money, meaning you get double speed supply drop progression, which is turned into scrap, when you get duplicates, that can be used to upgrade skills in horde for instance, that make your character better.

What am I misunderstanding here, because the way it's presented it looks like you get better scrap progression by paying for boost and thus are able to upgrade character skills faster?

If you are relying on scrap for levelling up horde cards,you are doing it wrong, lol. You get like 5 scrap for common supply drop duplicates. It takes 40 scrap per common skill card you are lacking for a horde skill. So if you need 5 duplicates for a common horde skill, you would need 200 scrap. That's 40 common supply drop duplicates, I haven't gotten that many duplicates since launch with the boost I was provided already, lol. For rare cards in horde it is something along the lines of 800 scrap per card. That's 160 common supply drop duplicates, lol. Play the character you want in horde for the fastest method of unlocking cards. For a full round of horde, you get at least 5 cards. Boost is not going to make much difference in your horde progression.
 
Dec 31, 2017
1,430
You think Nintendo wants to give you unlimited access to their platform to rent for a few bucks a month?
If they could have gotten away with it, they wouldn't have included the NES/SNES online service.
We know that because that was never part of their strategy for at least 2 gens.
They sold you the same games again and again.
They would have been perfectly happy selling you the games again for the nth time.
They never even thought about making people pay for online until all the competition did it before.
What makes you think they would have tried that otherwise?
Similarly Sony seemed pretty happy in providing mostly robust hardware with online capability.
They didn't even think of providing a premium tier until the competition showed in their financial that the online tax was a great way to mitigate any financial loss.
They certainly wouldn't have tried that risky move if the competition didn't show that customers didn't mind paying for the privilege of having a free service.

And it was risky, remember that Sony was losing a lot of cash on the ps3 early on and that they were kinda desperate in not having that part of the company fail like some other part of the company.
Nintendo including games with their online service is actually a good thing and adds value as making us pay again for the same thing a 3rd time (Wii, Wii U even though it was only a few dollars to upgrade, and now they could have done it on switch) would be milking their customers dry.

Online infrastructure isn't free, and like someone has already mentioned, MS is still hosting games released over 14 years ago while Sony makes you pay for the service yet drops support within a few years, actually within the same generation. MS at least supports their stuff for quite some time and I'm more than happy to be paying for such a service.
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,416
So he prefers DLC only?

Or does he really thinks AAA games could just be "pay 60 dollars once for everything"?
 

Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
5,217
Assuming I'm reading this correctly, I haven't misunderstood anything. Boost will give you (amongst other things) double supply drop progression, where duplicates are turned into scrap, that can upgrade your character skills in something like horde. So the elements are there. The discussion about whether they're necessary or don't matter because they only affect co-op modes, is a different one.
Fair enough! My comments were mostly about how this game doesn't encourage you to buy this stuff in any way, really. Heck, I didn't even know you could buy the stuff to upgrade skill cards. The game doesn't direct you to it, and you can upgrade them just by playing so quickly and easily. I upgraded three cards today playing over lunch.
 

Deleted member 29249

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,634
Sure he got a lot of clicks today...

All I got to say only one 1st party lets me play their games for $10 a month. Wish they let you pay weekly I would have gotten to beat gears 5 for $2.50.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
Nintendo including games with their online service is actually a good thing and adds value as making us pay again for the same thing a 3rd time (Wii, Wii U even though it was only a few dollars to upgrade, and now they could have done it on switch) would be milking their customers dry.

Online infrastructure isn't free, and like someone has already mentioned, MS is still hosting games released over 14 years ago while Sony makes you pay for the service yet drops support within a few years, actually within the same generation. MS at least supports their stuff for quite some time and I'm more than happy to be paying for such a service.
Again, my argument is not and has never been MSFT is the devil and should be ostracized for everything they tried and do.
At least they understand what it means to have people for their services.
Sony....not so much.
Nintendo would have certainly preferred making people another time till the end of time.
They have the Netflix-like NES/SNES app because they're acutely aware of their reputation and know for a fact that they won't get away with having people pay for nothing.
They just leveraged the one thing only they can do.
It's better for the customer now but we'll see.
What will let us know how pro or anti consumer Nintendo is will be if/when they decommission 3DS/WiiU online.
Their Wii/DS partner died so they couldn't really keep that up.
Switch online should be able to subsidize running a few servers for 3DS/WiiU, we'll see if they bite the bullet or not.
For Miiverse, that shit was very expensive, it's actually a blessing for them that it was on their least successful system. The cost for moderation alone would have been prohibitive. Probably why they cut that before the dead systems were cold.
 

Rimkrak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,832
"We're not stupid!

Well we're not THAT stupid"

Very good and funny video, if you watch it fully of course :)
 
May 9, 2018
3,600
charging for online play has always been dumb

so yes
Hosting servers, and a complete infrastructure for user identity/networking/anticheat, isn't free. Back when Xbox Live launched, it was a massive financial risk.

The entire reason that games like Diablo II, Warcraft III and Counterstrike were free online were because they were P2P, and of course they were very famous for hackers.
 

KirikaPirin

Banned
Jun 6, 2019
399
Great point, instead of greatness which comes with Ps4 and Switch, Microsoft capitalized on old safe franchises fueled with monetization. There is a reason why they're the only one from a big 3 who underdeveloped drastically in the first-party division this generation.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,619
MS set the tone with lowest selling console and a bunch of games that the vast majority of gamers didn't play.

Amazing.
 

P A Z

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,915
Barnsley, UK
He's been holding on to this vid for some time and you can tell with the choices of games he used to make his points.

He's not all wrong though and even points out how in other areas that MS is pro consumer such as making hardware for people with disabilities and their Gamepass service.

One thing he did fail to mention, which I thought he would, was that Xbox is the only platform that forces you to pay to play F2P games.

I don't know how being the only platform holder to charge you to play Fortnite hasn't created more noise, especially when another major platform holder is often criticised for putting a wall between their platform and others.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,650
Hosting servers, and a complete infrastructure for user identity/networking/anticheat, isn't free. Back when Xbox Live launched, it was a massive financial risk.

The entire reason that games like Diablo II, Warcraft III and Counterstrike were free online were because they were P2P, and of course they were very famous for hackers.

Sony provided the same ( Granted, while not as good ) for free.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
Hosting servers, and a complete infrastructure for user identity/networking/anticheat, isn't free. Back when Xbox Live launched, it was a massive financial risk.

The entire reason that games like Diablo II, Warcraft III and Counterstrike were free online were because they were P2P, and of course they were very famous for hackers.
Xbox games were also P2P.
Even the PS3 had more games with dedicated servers ...
 

Jon God

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,295
" normalization of excessive monetization" what's the point for this ? I mean their brand games doesn't have micro transaction, Sea of thieves add them 2 (or 3 don't remember) year later of the launch of the game. I don't get the point. I think EA and Activision Blizzard do that, not MS.

Microsoft doesn't have MTX their first party games, except the example I chose has MTX.

I was not aware Microsoft developed their video games around microtransactions.

Name 5 or more new AAA releases on Xbox One via their first party that don't include MTX.

Such a stupid video.

But par for the course in the contest to see who can garnish clicks by saying the most ignorant things.

Are you implying that MS doesn't have MTX in their first party games? Something the video is about?

I don't think they are such valuable to take the word "normalization" on them. They don't had extra value has Activision do on COD. For me OverWatch normalize the loot box, more than (almost) any other game.

I was playing yesterday and some people I played with didn't even know how to get to the Gears 5 shop.

The Tour of Duty, which is free and the main way to progress, is much more visible.

I haven't spent a dime on microtransactions and I have enough of the premium currency to reroll objectives anytime I want. I would only need to buy iron if I wanted to get some store skins, which you have to go to the store to see.

It's not that bad ≠ It doesn't exist.

When the competition _isn't_ pushing MTX, and you have them in basically all your first party games...

Honestly, I think Jim isn't going far back enough. It's ea who saw how mts could be used in non f2p games and showed everyone else including Microsoft how lucrative it is. GTA making so much money also was another milestone to help. Microsoft is honestly following the trend at this point.

Yup, unlike Sony and Nintendo.
 

deadman322

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,396
Hosting servers, and a complete infrastructure for user identity/networking/anticheat, isn't free. Back when Xbox Live launched, it was a massive financial risk.

The entire reason that games like Diablo II, Warcraft III and Counterstrike were free online were because they were P2P, and of course they were very famous for hackers.
erm counterstrike like every pc fps of that time was all dedicated servers. developer would release server clients so people could run their own or hire one from a 3rd party company.
 

Zeouter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,606
Ireland
The presence of their microtransaction strategy across their first party titles this gen has been .. very distracting and off putting, so Sterling isn't entirely offbase.
 

Deleted member 1607

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
401
User Banned (2 Weeks): Hostility Towards Another Member
With Xbox I can at least the investment in online infrastructure. I want to know why Sony charge for online but can't even maintain online functions for their own first party games: if MS can keep a 2005 delisted game like PGR3 online why can't Sony do the same for 2013's Drive Club?

Hey, how's that "PlayStation" discord server you ran into the ground doing?
 

EVA UNIT 01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,736
CA
Looking forward to seeing this. Microtransactions have been egregious in many Microsoft games, big games like Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4 being no exception (literal pay to win elements in both). It doesn't get enough exposure, so it's good to see someone like Jim applying pressure.

If they want microtransactions, let them at least have some of the bad PR that goes along with it.
There are no pay to win elements in gears 5.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580


If you want, watch this and notice how talking points are openly disseminated to this core audience. It's not just about how use the rec system, but how to justify it to others.

"Won't being able to buy guns ruin the balance?"

"Shut your noise hole. Adults are talking."
 

Aomame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
475
Does he address Nintendo's mobile apps at all (e.g. Pokemon Go, Pocket Camp, and the Mario games) at all? It doesn't affect his thesis of Microsoft's responsibility for enabling the trend, but Nintendo doesn't exactly have clean hands in all of this either.

Nintendo's mtx-enabled games are also overwhelmingly geared toward children which makes the monetization in them even more egregious.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,531
erm counterstrike like every pc fps of that time was all dedicated servers. developer would release server clients so people could run their own or hire one from a 3rd party company.
I mean that just shifts the paying online part to a handful of players rather than everybody. If no player was willing to pay than fewer people would pay.
 

Absolute

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,090
Enjoyed the video. I think there is some food for thought there. I think Jim has really improved in the last 6 months
 

jaymzi

Member
Jul 22, 2019
6,546
It is interesting how their 3 biggest franchises Halo, Gears and Forza are all games with in-game micro-transaction stores.

But whatever, Gears 5 campaign was enjoyable so that is the most important thing for me.
 

Sense

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,551
He's right. MS are the ones who started most of the money-grabbing trends that are today standard in the industry. Microsoft are the ones who started charging for online play. They even had the balls to gate any online services that were free elsewhere like YouTube behind the Gold paywall for a good while. They're the first ones who built a console OS that gave publishers easy paid DLC purchase ability. The Xbox 360 was the first console to have paid DLC (hello, Oblivion horse armor). They tried to money-gouge you to dress up your avatar with virtual brand clothing. With the Xbox One's original plans, they even tried to go further by taking away your rights to freely resell/lend physical games.
Mostly agree with the above. I kinda attribute the whole timed exclusive nonsense that Sony does in this gen to ms starting it last gen as well

Anyways the video does have a bunch of hyperbole but I do agree with some of the points mainly being MS does like to include mtx in their games and they were kinda aggressive early on this gen. I can kinda see him not remembering certain Sony games having it because they are known for the single player components or something like MLB. I guess the last three major games like horizon, god of war and Spider-Man not having it helps.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
Although i think that MS is in a very good place with their pro-consumer policies of late, Jim's video is on point and it just shows that there has to be some kind of regulation on video game monetization because as it is right now it is a jungle.

Thank god for Jim not stopping pointing the real issues.
 

metalgear89

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,018
Of course their "pro consumer" now their console isn't selling well and their exclusives are in a nosedive. If they didn't get humbled by sony this gen we would be seeing far more anti consumer tactics by microsoft.

I don't trust ms at all with the future of gaming, if gamepass really does take off they will be back to their old ways they just need to get people hooked in first.
 

TuMekeNZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,278
Auckland, New Zealand
I think some are missing the point... He is not saying MS created the trend or are the worst offenders, he is saying that due to their position in the industry (big publisher and one of the 3 console hardware makers) them embracing the practice has helped legitimize it.
The fact that their 3 pillars of gaming IP are riddled with it to this day is pretty damning.
The difference between micro-transactions and DLC is that DLC doesn't impact the base game or the players enjoyment of that base game. It is an option to have more of what you love.
Micro-transactions add in barriers whether it is just a skin or a boost to reach goals quicker. They prey on the "me too" or "FOMO" emotion many succumb to.
Yes MS/Xbox have made a heap of consumer friendly moves this gen, but really what other option did they have after that start and consumer reaction?
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Mostly agree with the above. I kinda attribute the whole timed exclusive nonsense that Sony does in this gen to ms starting it last gen as well.
I mean Sega paid one month exclusivity for the first Tomb Raider, followed by Sony paying for console exclusivity for the sequels. This practiced already existed and was used a lot.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,519
I really like parts of Jim's content, but not his hard stance things like MTX. I don't have a problem with MTX. If you want something you pay for it, if you don't then pass on it. I bought the horse armor and never looked back (and I would do it again).
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
MS is the most pro consumer of them all, everyone knows this.

MS has, within the last generation, become the most pro-consumer in some aspects as a direct result of the backlash to their anti-consumer start to the gen and it's resulting turn of the market in Sony's favor generally speaking.

Did microtransactions kill Jims mother or something?

Do you think they make things better? If not, why defend them?
 

Sense

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,551
I mean Sega paid one month exclusivity for the first Tomb Raider, followed by Sony paying for console exclusivity for the sequels. This practiced already existed and was used a lot.
No doubt, I just think ms were very aggressive in the 360 generation in this area and kinda made It a talking/selling point