• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244
I mean people willingly believe that "the service is a loss to MS" without providing *any actual proof", not even evidence. But that's fine apparently.
Not that we as a customer should particularly care, at all. I just don't know why people care so much when everything is just speculation anyway. Besides the "fact" that the price will increase :D
So here's the thing with that: It's all an accounting question. If they do something where they capitalize the cost of providing the free months of gamepass under the $1 conversion scheme, and then treat every user as if they paid the full $15 each month, I'm sure it's profitable. But on a dollars in, dollars out basis, I'm sure it's losing money.

However that's absolutely normal in the technology services industry. Tesla has lost billions and billions of dollars but people are lining up to buy their stock because they a confident in where things project to move for their business.

Gamepass right now has 15m subscribers offering mainly day 1 indies and 2+ year old third party games. Two years down the road when they have a handful of AAA and AAA-ish day 1 games hitting the service every year, both from the 2018 studio acquisitions and the Bethesda acquisition, how much higher will that subscriber count be? Double?

That's $5.4B in revenue per year. And what did you spend on the 5-6 first-party games you put out? Even averaging $100m each (which is very very high) that's $500m in production costs. That's a really, really good revenue stream. Then if they can crack the code on streaming to mobile...

And the entire thing is built upon this simple fact: It costs virtually the same amount of money to develop a game that's sold to 100 people as it is to develop the same game and sell it to 100,000,000 people. So you spend big for the tentpole releases that get people in the door on your service, then you invest in a drip-feed of content that keeps them subscribed between tentpoles, and you reap the rewards of the extreme economies of scale for digital products.

I think it's only a matter of when, not if, Sony joins the party.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,033
Milwaukee, WI
A $200m game, three times a year, every year, fits in that financial model.

I promise I'm not being a jerk or maybe I misread a joke but that really isn't how projects are funded.
First problem would be if one of the games undersold. Or delayed, or anything that inevitably happens.

As for Game Pass, we really don't know what the numbers are going to look like or what they mean.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers is always something to keep in mind.
Next year when Microsoft shows this new impressive Game Pass ultimate number,
how many of those will be from Gold subscribers who stocked up and only paid 25% of it's price?
How many will be in a free trail with no reoccurring billing provided?
Remember, this is the same company that stopped providing sales figures for sold through consoles.

Why Microsoft can do this is because they are, for real, a trillion dollar company. They have many avenues with which they can and do successfully make money.
Sony, while gigantic company by any reasonable modern metric, is several rows below Microsoft

Now some might poorly type "y u hate ps5 >:(" But I don't. I want one. I've owned damn near every playstation product. I already had the move controllers when VR dropped this gen.
I adore the PlayStation brand. But if money is the metric (and it is) Microsoft is in a completely different dimension than Sony. The only thing these two have in common is the market they're in.

Like I said, I am buying both. I keep needing to put this at the end of posts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,841
Let me put it in financial terms instead of subscription numbers. The Xbox division makes over a billion dollars just from subscriptions alone. This is on top of the traditional way of selling games. I'm just not understanding why GP is being singled for supposedly bleeding so much money without accounting for the other ways of incoming profit, in the same gaming division, to help balance whatever losses there might be.
Sony is also making heavy money from PS Plus subscriptions. It's an even more profitable model for them as they're selling games separately but still making you pay money to use online features of the games.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
I mean people willingly believe that "the service is a loss to MS" without providing *any actual proof", not even evidence

www.gamespot.com

Xbox Game Pass Is Not A Big Money-Maker Right Now, But Microsoft Is Thinking Long Term

"[Xbox Game Pass] is not a big profit play," Aaron Greenberg says of the subscription service.

He doesn't explicitly say that it's losing money, but he's admitting that they're banking on it making more money later down the road (aka, they're willing to subsidize it). Keep in mind thats before they added EA access and Bethesda games to the service, and they haven't increase the price.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,487
He says this but Playstation Plus is pretty much GAMEPASS Lite

Though when it comes to brand new games hmmmm I think I agree with him

I think the Plus model is just a different, and maybe some would say outdated, way of going about it

Its pretty neat to slap PS5 adopters with 18 of PS4's best games for free especially since many of them will play even better than before.

Its a tricky line to dance and time will tell if Microsoft's approach will continue to pay off. I think that it will at least for consumers and given Microsoft can double dip with PC market and allowing their software elsewhere with cloud, mobile and switch titles? Its interesting times. I wonder if they even bothering worrying about what Sony does much like Nintendo

The big three seem more divergent than ever and the market seems large enough to support their quirky ways of doing business
 

tbassett

Member
Jan 8, 2019
616
I hope u are right must because of Bethesda, Arkhane, Tango and ID. Let's see how many of these studios will still be making only sp games with no gaas elements, coop or any other online element, besides obvious online franchises. Let's see how many game stays pure sp experiences.
Gamepass is the GAAS. If anything Bethesda won't have to do games like Youngblood and Fallout 76 ever again.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,638
I find this extremely hard to believe, unless he's saying that a GamePass service would ultimately be a net-loss for them and they can't afford it, where Microsoft can afford it... but Microsoft doesn't appear to be taking a loss on the service?

As for the quality of the games the two companies make, I would agree that so far, the bar for quality from first party games is higher on the Sony end... but it's a new generation and it's time to see what Microsoft's newly bolstered studios can make. I don't see why they couldn't make absolutely great, high quality games and put them on GamePass.
Microsoft is most likely taking a loss on the service right now, but that's by design in order to build up subscribers to a profitable amount. They were also in a great position to be able to do that, as their first party content was lacking and not selling well at all. That's why they put their first party games on PC day one, and why they put their games on Gamepass day one, to generally increase potential user base and revenue.

Meanwhile Sony has had an amazing 2020 in terms of their first party content, with TLOU2 and Ghost selling like 6 million combined in less than a month (at least, I don't remember and it may have been higher), so it makes little sense for them to willingly choose to take a loss in the short term in order to make possibly greater long term profits. While MS's plan seems to be successful, it's still an unknown when it comes to video games and is the first one to do this, and there's no guarantee of success (even though it certainly seems to be successful now). For example, what happens if Gamepass subs peak at around only 30 million subs instead of higher? How does that effect their profits? Lots of unknowns with the Xbox plan, but Sony's is proven.
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,525
I hope u are right must because of Bethesda, Arkhane, Tango and ID. Let's see how many of these studios will still be making only sp games with no gaas elements, coop or any other online element, besides obvious online franchises. Let's see how many game stays pure sp experiences.
Why would they buy notable single player franchises to run them into the ground? Adding features beyond that isn't a detriment. Pretty sure they understand not catering to the fans they bought the franchises for wouldn't get them a good ROI in this situation.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
www.gamespot.com

Xbox Game Pass Is Not A Big Money-Maker Right Now, But Microsoft Is Thinking Long Term

"[Xbox Game Pass] is not a big profit play," Aaron Greenberg says of the subscription service.

He doesn't explicitly say that it's losing money, but he's admitting that they're banking on it making more money later down the road (aka, they're willing to subsidize it). Keep in mind thats before they added EA access and Bethesda games to the service, and they haven't increase the price.
But they also increased the number of subs in the mean time.
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
I think they are making the wrong decision. Everyone knows game sales are front loaded - as long as the game doesn't hit the streaming service for 6 months + the number of full price sales lost will be minimal. Meanwhile you get to collect $x a month from the people who weren't gonna buy the games full price and then get to sell them DLC for the games they really like. On top of that it keeps the playerbase for MP games alive for a lot longer.
I don't see the financial downside unless you believe that some of those day one buyers would be happy to wait 6 months+ to get a game, but if they were they could get it at a discount anyway.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,128
Chile
Xbox Game Pass is gonna make certain people eat crow this generation (which it kinda already continues to do), especially with the Bethesda acquisition and whatever else they have cooking. Mark my words.

I think the same as you do

Firstly, I don't know why this kind of discussion is always fixated on Sony and never Nintendo. Why doesn't Nintendo offer its own version of Game Pass as well? Could it be that Nintendo believes there's more money to be made selling games like Animal Crossing and Zelda full-price at retail than offering them as part of a subscription?

Sony's just come off the back of a generation breaking first-party sales records back-to-back. It'll definitely be crunching the numbers, and it'll know how much it costs to maintain its arsenal of first-party studios, what the budgets are for its games, and how much revenue it can potentially earn through a hypothetical Game Pass-esque subscription service. Clearly it doesn't believe, at this moment, that the sums add up.

There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.


I think that the main difference with Nintendo is the fact that Nintendo has put a lot of effort into position itself not as a direct competition to Sony or Microsoft and just be a complete different alternative to games. Sony and Microsoft are sure to compete head to head, so it's expected for Sony to come up with an answer, which they kind of did with the PS+ Collection, just not a good enough one.

We don't know how much or if MS is losing money really. The same way you say Nintendo thinks there's more money to be made selling games individually, MS must be seeing a better plan with the subscription. They are just playing a long long game.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Rest assured, if Gamepass was profitable on its own two feet, MS would be shouting fro the rooftops about it.

They just shouted with 7.5 billion dollars. These types of business strategies take years to hit tipping points. Wouldnt be surprised if that tipping point is somewhere beyond 50 million subs. Game Pass can't be profitable today. Netflix wasn't profitable at 150 million subs. Gaming has more ways to monetize so the tipping point is going to be lower. It's more about where the data is trending.

I get why it doesn't make sense for Sony today. It obviously makes sense for Microsoft. It will make sense for Sony down the road.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,348
Why is Xbox's revenue half of what Playstation generates when GP is out for two years?

Because Sony this gen sold twice as much hardware, almost all of their major first-party releases were large financial hits for them, and for at least the past couple of years Game Pass has been a drag on Xbox's revenue while they aggressively work to create a subscriber base?

Without any actual data, I can only imagine that Game Pass on balance is losing a lot of money right now - but that isn't a surprise, it's the entire plan. They are accepting short-to-medium term revenue losses, in order to build up their subscriber numbers to critical mass. And they are still selling games through traditional means, so as not to forfeit those revenue streams (which is a key difference from the Netflix model).

The worries about GP turning everything into "live service" games and so on, is really dumb. Microsoft benefit from driving ongoing engagement with the service itself, not with single titles. To that end, the best thing they can do is offer a wide variety of games catering to the broadest cross-section of players possible. That was the entire impetus behind acquiring a studio like Double Fine, for example.

And sure enough, just this past August you saw an example of this: A Flight Simulator, a couch co-op beat 'em up game, a CRPG, and an episodic narrative adventure game. And that was just their internal stuff that month.
 

Lirion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,774
If Sony want to do Gamepass later they already have the method of doing that today with PS Now, PS Now is also a streaming service like xcloud so it's not like Sony aren't capable to do it now. When Sony think it's more profitable to release their Naughty Dog games and other big budget games day one on PSNow they will.
 

get2sammyb

Editor at Push Square
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
3,006
UK
Let's play numberwang.

50m subscribers at $10/mo is $6bn a year.

PLUS actual sales on top to non subscribers.

A $200m game, three times a year, every year, fits in that financial model.

Not even PS Plus has 50 million subscribers and it's significantly cheaper and practically essential. This also assumes that subscribers would retain their subscription for 12 months despite tentpole titles only launching in three of those months.
 

Skeff

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,628
Let's play numberwang.

50m subscribers at $10/mo is $6bn a year.

PLUS actual sales on top to non subscribers.

A $200m game, three times a year, every year, fits in that financial model.

Let's try some real numbers. 15m Subs at a blend of £1 up to £15 a month.

Anywhere between $180m a year to $2.5bn a year.

Thats Revenue... compared to 5 million copies of spiderman sold at $60 for a total revenue of $300 dollars and that's just the day 1 sales revenue. Put in the other 10m sales at ~$30-$40 and were looking at a total gross of $600-700m dollars. That's what he means.

Of course the spiderman revenue has to cover a lot of costs but so does the game pass revenue.
 

ElNino

Member
Nov 6, 2017
3,707
Let's try some real numbers. 15m Subs at a blend of £1 up to £15 a month.

Anywhere between $180m a year to $2.5bn a year.

Thats Revenue... compared to 5 million copies of spiderman sold at $60 for a total revenue of $300 dollars and that's just the day 1 sales revenue. Put in the other 10m sales at ~$30-$40 and were looking at a total gross of $600-700m dollars. That's what he means.

Of course the spiderman revenue has to cover a lot of costs but so does the game pass revenue.
Yes, it's a traditional business model that relies on AAA titles to continually hit their mark. To Sony's credit (or at least the credit of the studios), they mostly hit it out of the park this generation so this model certainly worked well for them. They also only need to worry about one entry point for their games, where as Microsoft will always have Windows so it makes sense for them to bridge those platforms.

Both models can (and do) exist in parallel and can feed content to largely the same group of customers.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,793
Gamepass is a massive loss leader, there's absolutely no question about that.

Still isn't.

Game Pass is a redistribution model. It actually isn't a value model.

It's literal gaming communism. Instead of one game selling 20 million, and another selling 200k... they're all technically the same now.

15 million subs is roughly in the range of 3 million (at $52, first party cut) to 4 million (at $42, third party cut) in game sales per month after distribution costs and credit fees... depending on how you look at it. (if everyone were $10/month, that would be 2.5 - 3.1 million per month)

Now you might look at it and think that's not a lot... but across an entire generation, 15 million subs would be roughly 20% of ALL GAMES SOLD ON PS4 and not to mention that not all games sold on PS4 are full retail... and we're considering 15 million subscribers as small right now. This means at roughly 60 million subs, it would effectively replace all game sales on PS4. First party. Third party. Doesn't matter. I say 60 million because a lot of those sales are going to be retail copies, or smaller digital titles that cost only $5-10 or from sales. Game Pass is pure revenue. The economics are absolute nuts.

15 million * $12 (guesstimate 3:2 basic to ultimate ratio) * .88 (cc fees and infrastructure) * 12 months * 7 years / $52 = 255 million game sales

But the thing being forgotten is MS games are already selling well on Xbox and PC. So Game Pass is essentially being an additive to those sales... and people want to suggest that outright increasing your own game revenue by a large amount while incurring no additional costs isn't profitable?

Now let's talk about attach rates.

PS4 is roughly at a 10:1 attach rate. 10 games sold per console sold. At 15 million subs, Game Pass is around 2.5 games per year or an effective attach rate of 17.5:1 across 7 years as long as they maintain 15 million subs. (and we all know they're going to have more than that by the end of the gen, that's for damn sure) so they're definitely spending a lot more on average just by being a sub.

If they add 5 million subs per year for the next 7 years the rough equivalent sales of the generation would be 525 million. but the most important part is the number is accelerating. And even if the attach rate falls to like 4 across say 65 million in consoles sales, that would end up being roughly 800 million equivalent in software sales. A few hundred million lower than PS4, sure. But the vast majority would be considered full retail price. There's no cheap $10 games considered here, either. Under this scenario the subs only hit 45 million. The economics get insane at over 60 million subs.

You starting to see why Game Pass isn't a loss leader yet? As Satya Nadella said... it's the future of software.
 

Skeff

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,628
Yes, it's a traditional business model that relies on AAA titles to continually hit their mark. To Sony's credit (or at least the credit of the studios), they mostly hit it out of the park this generation so this model certainly worked well for them. They also only need to worry about one entry point for their games, where as Microsoft will always have Windows so it makes sense for them to bridge those platforms.

Both models can (and do) exist in parallel and can feed content to largely the same group of customers.

Most definitely, I Wouldn't be surprised to see Sony go halfway and make most of their 1st party day 1 on PSNOw if they ever decided to go that route and just keep the big hitters off PSNow for 6 month or offer a large discount e.g. sell them at $30-40 to PSNow users. They could get the best of both worlds.
 

Deluxera

Member
Mar 13, 2020
2,581
PS+ Collection is aimed at those who never bought a PS4 and may want to purchase a PS5, whether it is because this is going to be their first console or maybe they skipped the PS4 or they were playing on another system through this gen. Buying the PS5 and subscribing gives you immediate access to pretty much the best of what the past gen had to offer.
Basically the PS+ Collection exists only to add value to the Playstation 5. It is not supposed to be an enticing service in itself like Gamepass is. If Sony wanted a Gamepass wannabe they would have put the PS+ Collection on PS4 and PC, but they are not because that's not what it is about.
 

Dizastah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,124
PS+ Collection is aimed at those who never bought a PS4 and may want to purchase a PS5, whether it is because this is going to be their first console or maybe they skipped the PS4 or they were playing on another system through this gen. Buying the PS5 and subscribing gives you immediate access to pretty much the best of what the past gen had to offer.
Basically the PS+ Collection exists only to add value to the Playstation 5. It is not supposed to be an enticing service in itself like Gamepass is. If Sony wanted a Gamepass wannabe they would have put the PS+ Collection on PS4 and PC, but they are not because that's not what it is about.
PS+ Collection is not on PS4?
 

ElNino

Member
Nov 6, 2017
3,707
Most definitely, I Wouldn't be surprised to see Sony go halfway and make most of their 1st party day 1 on PSNOw if they ever decided to go that route and just keep the big hitters off PSNow for 6 month or offer a large discount e.g. sell them at $30-40 to PSNow users. They could get the best of both worlds.
Agreed, I don't see Sony offering their games day and date at any point this coming generation. But, I could see them adding their PS4 BC or older PS5 games via PSNow and having a discount model like you mentioned; that would function similar to EA Access/Play where you get "old" games to play as a subscriber and discounts on new games if you don't want to wait.

PS+ Collection is not on PS4?
I don't think it is official, but I'm very curious to know if PS4 owners can also play the games or if we can only play them on PS5 as BC titles. If they are playable on PS4 as regular digital titles like I hope, then I can go ahead and trade/sell a bunch of my PS4 games towards some PS5 games.
 

w00zey

Member
Nov 23, 2018
189
I'm not an expert, but sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Microsoft has enough money that they don't have to organically grow a user base. They can pay for it and let years down the road be the payoff. Not to mention peripherals and entertainment that you can access on the store
 

rajinus

Banned
Sep 2, 2020
138
Microsoft is one of the richest companies on the planet, and they can afford to hemorrhage money from the Xbox division, subsidized by the others. It allows them to do things that would be completely unfeasible for Sony or Nintendo. This is why demanding that Sony/Nintendo do things just because MS is doing them, is just silly and unrealistic.
 

Justsomeguy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,712
UK
I promise I'm not being a jerk or maybe I misread a joke but that really isn't how projects are funded.
First problem would be if one of the games undersold. Or delayed, or anything that inevitably happens.

As for Game Pass, we really don't know what the numbers are going to look like or what they mean.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers is always something to keep in mind.
Next year when Microsoft shows this new impressive Game Pass ultimate number,
how many of those will be from Gold subscribers who stocked up and only paid 25% of it's price?
How many will be in a free trail with no reoccurring billing provided?
Remember, this is the same company that stopped providing sales figures for sold through consoles.

Why Microsoft can do this is because they are, for real, a trillion dollar company. They have many avenues with which they can and do successfully make money.
Sony, while gigantic company by any reasonable modern metric, is several rows below Microsoft

Now some might poorly type "y u hate ps5 >:(" But I don't. I want one. I've owned damn near every playstation product. I already had the move controllers when VR dropped this gen.
I adore the PlayStation brand. But if money is the metric (and it is) Microsoft is in a completely different dimension than Sony. The only thing these two have in common is the market they're in.

Like I said, I am buying both. I keep needing to put this at the end of posts.
Sure. I agree with all of this (and the other posters making similar points about today's figures, eg 15m at $1 - $10) . My point, which I should have been more explicit about, is that MS are building to target that business model and level of subs via console, pc and xcloud.

Maybe they'll completely fail. But IF they succeed then according to the back of the envelope numbers there is comfortably enough money to fund blockbuster titles as well as the rest of game pass.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,302
Australia
As for gamepass I'm sure Microsoft as put a decent amount analysis into their model, as I'm sure Sony has also. probably a bit more than doing a quick IIR calculation in excel. Which I'm guessing most people giving their opinions on the matter don't have any idea how to do.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,804
Gaming subscription services won't interest me unless every game (first and third party) that comes out on a platform is included on day one. I don't want to pay for a subscription and then still pay for games that aren't there day one on top of that.
I rarely buy games that have been out for a while because if it interests me, I'll want to play it on day one. If it doesn't meet that criteria it won't be worth my time once it hits any subscription services.
I also sometimes go for months without playing games because nothing of interest to me is released so it wouldn't make sense to constantly be subscribed to the service anyways.

Microsoft is close but no cigar. I applaud them for their incredible effort but in the end I'm not a profitable customer for them if I only sub for a month here and there to play a $60 game for $10 and then immediately cancel my sub again.

I've found myself playing and enjoying games on GamePass that i would never even have considered buying. There is an element of discoverability to it as well.
 

Jayteealao

Member
Jul 19, 2020
16
Over the life of a console generation( ~7yrs), gamepass revenue at 10 million subscribers paying $10 × 12months over 7yrs would be 8.4 billion.

Since we're been generous, if sony sells 10million copies of its first party titles at an attach rate of 10 games per console revenue at $70 would be 7bn.

It would be extremely foolish if sony didn't think of going the gamepass route.
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,328
People who interpreted Ryan's statement as such are twisting his words a lot. What he said is basically that Sony simply cannot afford, from a financial standpoint, to give away their first-party games for 10€ or whatever how much PSNow is today.

I see. As I said, I just guess this is how some people are interpreting it - not that they are right :) Also, some people are probably angry about the $70 thing, so I guess that also plays a role in this.

But yeah, I guess what he said is not so controversial, really.
 

Jayteealao

Member
Jul 19, 2020
16
Over the life of a console generation( ~7yrs), gamepass revenue at 10 million subscribers paying $10 × 12months over 7yrs would be 8.4 billion.

Since we're been generous, if sony sells 10million copies of its first party titles at an attach rate of 10 games per console revenue at $70 would be 7bn.

It would be extremely foolish if sony didn't think of going the gamepass route.

This calculation is generous due to the fact that the attach rate isn't all first party titles and the average price paid for first party titles is between $40-50
 

Penny Royal

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
QLD, Australia
Over the life of a console generation( ~7yrs), gamepass revenue at 10 million subscribers paying $10 × 12months over 7yrs would be 8.4 billion.

Since we're been generous, if sony sells 10million copies of its first party titles at an attach rate of 10 games per console revenue at $70 would be 7bn.

It would be extremely foolish if sony didn't think of going the gamepass route.

In one post you've clearly out-thought Sony's entire business planning team.

I'm absolutely certain your back of beer mat maths is more valuable than Sony's own analytics.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
So not only are you speculating about potential price increases with nothing but a gut feeling from your own but now you are unsure whether they will keep their first party games on the service while they never even suggested it would not be the case?
Where is that all coming from?

People like to compare Game Pass to Netflix, except where Netflix raises the price every year or so, Game Pass is going to be immune from that. I guess you can have it both ways.

Over the life of a console generation( ~7yrs), gamepass revenue at 10 million subscribers paying $10 × 12months over 7yrs would be 8.4 billion.

Since we're been generous, if sony sells 10million copies of its first party titles at an attach rate of 10 games per console revenue at $70 would be 7bn.

It would be extremely foolish if sony didn't think of going the gamepass route.

You can't pretend each one of these games cost the same to make. Do we think Psychonauts 2 and Halo Infinite are going to cost the same to make? Purely talking about revenue is silly.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I've found myself playing and enjoying games on GamePass that i would never even have considered buying. There is an element of discoverability to it as well.
The disxoverability is huge. There are so many games I would never ever ever pay a penny towards but downloaded and ended up loving. Dishourned 2 and Foragerer being two of them.
 

Deleted member 9584

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,132
PS+ Collection is aimed at those who never bought a PS4 and may want to purchase a PS5, whether it is because this is going to be their first console or maybe they skipped the PS4 or they were playing on another system through this gen. Buying the PS5 and subscribing gives you immediate access to pretty much the best of what the past gen had to offer.
Basically the PS+ Collection exists only to add value to the Playstation 5. It is not supposed to be an enticing service in itself like Gamepass is. If Sony wanted a Gamepass wannabe they would have put the PS+ Collection on PS4 and PC, but they are not because that's not what it is about.
On the flip side, if you never owned an Xbox and bought an XSX and gamepass, you just hit the value lottery compared to the PS+ Collection. Semantics on this can be argued back and forth, but in the end both programs give newcomers to the ecosystem access to a catalog of games. The only reason why Sony isn't putting this collection on the PS4 is because most of these games were already free on PS+ On PS4 in the past and they also are arbitrarily holding it off those platforms to "add value" to the new box, while game pass' value is spread across several systems.

In the end both services are trying to add value to their system; one of them is actual value to all owners within that ecosystem, new and old, and the other means jack squat to people like me, who has owned a PS4 all gen, and is meant for newcomers.

To me, this PS4 collection of games on PS5 actually TAKES value away from me as a player on PS5 because it tells me THIS is what we are getting as a PS+ member on PS5, not native PS5 games like we got new PS4 games for the PS4 at launch.
 
Last edited:

Jayteealao

Member
Jul 19, 2020
16
In one post you've clearly out-thought Sony's entire business planning team.

I'm absolutely certain your back of beer mat maths is more valuable than Sony's own analytics.

In honesty, I don't care if either is profitable, but I hope they both stay healthy business wise.
Because then next generation will be good to all gamers.

I'll go for what choice is most financially prudent for me.

Forgive my back of the beer mates, I do like my beer cold.
 

Mecha

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,479
Honduras
MS will work to lower their investment per game to make GP more profitable. The model works best with quantity rather than quality (see Netflix). You will still get quality titles but that would be on rare occasions.

The games MS will be putting out in five years will be radically different to what they have released recently. Mainly business models will shift and we are already seeing that with Halo and Forza being treated as platforms where all future content will rest, think Destiny 2 and what Bungie is currently aiming at. I think this will work for their bigger franchises (Halo, Gears and Forza) but they will still house individual releases, specially through Bethesda.
 

nanskee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,070
I mean one of the key points is that gamepass is also available for PC and mobile devices, it's not limited to the Xbox platform. which means It's only a matter of time

Whereas I doubt a PlayStation gamepass alternative such as PSNow will be available for other platforms other than PlayStation devices. Maybe smartphone by the end of the gen
 
Last edited:

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,844
If Game Pass cost $15 a month and there are 15 million subs that comes to 2.7 billion a year. Yes I know currently most are paying a significantly reduced rate, but when that turns over if their output is strong the subs will likely only go up.

I think the math works out better than Jim believes
 

Deleted member 68874

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 10, 2020
10,441
MS will work to lower their investment per game to make GP more profitable. The model works best with quantity rather than quality (see Netflix). You will still get quality titles but that would be on rare occasions.
How is this talk not bannable? It's no different than calling devs lazy.

Yeah Mecha you're right. Obsidian, InXile, Double Fine, Arkane, Machine Games, The Initiative, Ninja Theory, Playground Games are all gonna stop putting in the effort to create quality games because you say so.
 

Mecha

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,479
Honduras
How is this talk not bannable? It's no different than calling devs lazy.

Yeah Mecha you're right. Obsidian, InXile, Double Fine, Arkane, Machine Games, The Initiative, Ninja Theory, Playground Games are all gonna stop putting in the effort to create quality games because you say so.
Maybe I word it to harshly, I meant games with a big budget like Halo or TLOU compared to games with budgets like Crackdown, Hellblade and the like. I'm not saying the games will be bad at all just that there is less incentive from MS to make higher budget games. Most studios you mentioned work with mid to high tier budgets, none in the same ballpark as MS biggest franchises. The Initiative is still a wildcard though.

You can make amazing games with low budget (see Fallguys).

I'll add this, the level of polish you expect from a Halo game is way higher than Wolfenstein, there is a huge gap in quality but I think Wolfenstein The New Order is better than all 343 Halo games.
 

Another

Banned
Oct 23, 2019
1,684
Portugal
How is this talk not bannable? It's no different than calling devs lazy.

Yeah Mecha you're right. Obsidian, InXile, Double Fine, Arkane, Machine Games, The Initiative, Ninja Theory, Playground Games are all gonna stop putting in the effort to create quality games because you say so.

Bannable? If the user chose to go with a slippery slope fallacy (they did), call them out on it and confront them but I don't understand the reasoning behind escalating something this harmless into a bannable offense. If poor discourse was a bannable offense you wouldn't be left with much.
 

Deleted member 68874

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 10, 2020
10,441
Maybe I word it to harshly, I meant games with a big budget like Halo or TLOU compared to games with budgets like Crackdown, Hellblade and the like. I'm not saying the games will be bad at all just that there is less incentive from MS to make higher budget games. Most studios you mentioned work with mid to high tier budgets, none in the same ballpark as MS biggest franchises. The Initiative is still a wildcard though.

You can make amazing games with low budget (see Fallguys).
All evidence points to the opposite so far.

InXile, Obsidian, Double Fine and Compulsion Games had to crowd fund their latest games.

Obsidian, InXile and Compulsion Games are now all making AAA games.

Double Fine has been given more funding to add bosses, and levels they had to cut from Psychonauts 2 due to budget constraints.

InXile and Ninja Theory just got all new offices to further expand their team sizes.

Playground Games has gone from a one team studio to a 2 team studio with each making AAA games.

There is now more incentive than ever to make bigger budget games. Look at the streaming wars going on in Television right now. Game of Thrones was the king because of the show's spectacle.

Big games are going to draw people to the service and big games will keep people subscribed.
 

Detective

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,853
I am glad Game Pass exist.
As for Sony exclusive I will wait when they are most on sales.
Aint gonna pay 80 for a single player games.
 

nanskee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,070
People really think they have more insight than Microsoft's market analysts. I do think this model is sustainable for PlayStation, but it's safe to say that their current model earns them a lot more.

Again, gamepass is not limited to Xbox consoles. This is huge. If they could get away with it, I'm pretty sure they'd even put gamepass on the switch
 

spwolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
133
I am probably going to get GamePass on PC, since it is $1/mo and thats really good value.
EA Play sucks on PS4, only good thing that came out of it are these 10hr trials of their new games.

With PS Now, new pricing is good and I got to play quite few games that I dont usually wouldnt, even if I have no time really.

Whole argument is a bit dumb - this is clearly Netflix vs Movie Studios/Theater and both can live at the same time. Nobody will stop watching movies in movie theater due to Netflix, so people will still pay for big games on consoles and PC.

Am I not going to buy my annual sports game since it is not on subscription service? Are you not going to watch Avengers since it is not on Netflix?

Anyway, how come regular Minecraft is not on Gamepass on PC? It makes too much money?