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Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
They could do a limited run after 18 months on the service for about 3 months, then show up perm after maybe 2 years, but I'm actually curious to see how MS does it with their first party. They said Day 1 on gamepass, but I do not recall them saying the games are permanently on gamepass. I'd like to assume yes that is the case. But def would like to see that in writing.
So not only are you speculating about potential price increases with nothing but a gut feeling from your own but now you are unsure whether they will keep their first party games on the service while they never even suggested it would not be the case?
Where is that all coming from?
 

FullNelson

Member
Jan 28, 2019
1,319
Today in my country the prices of the PS5 launch games were announced and they are 50% more expensive than the prices that you could find last year

Good luck with that Jimbo
And the console is like, 60% more expensive than the suggested price. Sony really wants to lose latam,. They are really trying.

On Topic: Of course Sony cannot afford putting their first party games on a subscription model. They don't have the deep pockets that MS does have. The Bethesda acquisition was something like 70% of the gaming division revenue of 2019. Not profit (since MS doesn't report that). Revenue. They are surely losing money in the short-term.

On the other hand, Sony's pricing is a little too much for me right now, and for budget-sensitive places I''m sure the new standard price will have a negative impact.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,316
I find this extremely hard to believe, unless he's saying that a GamePass service would ultimately be a net-loss for them and they can't afford it, where Microsoft can afford it... but Microsoft doesn't appear to be taking a loss on the service?

As for the quality of the games the two companies make, I would agree that so far, the bar for quality from first party games is higher on the Sony end... but it's a new generation and it's time to see what Microsoft's newly bolstered studios can make. I don't see why they couldn't make absolutely great, high quality games and put them on GamePass.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,033
Milwaukee, WI
Game Pass works for MS because they don't really have a lot of expensive AAA top tier exclusives. Its just Halo and Gears

And Forza! Not to mention all the money they spent getting expensive cars on stage.
But it's true that they don't create Last of Us, God of War, and other hyper costly 3rd person games.
Different philosophies for sure.

I'm sure Sony is about to go broke. That must be why they fuck over everyone not in the US

I really didn't understand this sentiment until I spoke with someone from South East Asia.
I understand Sony has to prioritized, and America is the market to own, but there are
a lot more dissatisfied international PlayStation users than I realized.

So it's safe to assume that almost every big PlayStation game is costing more than 100~150 million to produce?

Oh easily. Gotta over 200 mil for Last of Us 2.
Sony has been killing it in first party game sales so I'm sure they can rationalize this direction.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
releasing all games on steam is very smart for MS and Sony could do the same if they wanted a gamepass. PC gamers are addicted to steam and don't want to use anything else even if it means paying $70 for a game instead of getting it for free (with a subscription they already have)

And Forza! Not to mention all the money they spent getting expensive cars on stage.
But it's true that they don't create Last of Us, God of War, and other hyper costly 3rd person games.
Different philosophies for sure.
They literally created a studio to do this (The Initiative)
 

LuigiMario

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,933
If gamepass ends up successful enough there's not doubt they'll start charging $70 for first parties... and then down the line you'll get them on gamepass 3-6 months later. Kinda obvious that's where this is all headed to.

This would likely make them lose GamePass subscribers which is more important to them than one time purchasers. I see them raising the price of gamepass ultimate way before they ditch day 1 Microsoft exclusive games. That's like telling Netflix they should release their original series on Bluray first and then put then on Netflix 2 months later, the content drives users to the platform.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I find this extremely hard to believe, unless he's saying that a GamePass service would ultimately be a net-loss for them and they can't afford it, where Microsoft can afford it... but Microsoft doesn't appear to be taking a loss on the service?

As for the quality of the games the two companies make, I would agree that so far, the bar for quality from first party games is higher on the Sony end... but it's a new generation and it's time to see what Microsoft's newly bolstered studios can make. I don't see why they couldn't make absolutely great, high quality games and put them on GamePass.
They can absolutely turn out, the question is will the games turn out and last gen wasn't kind to microsoft's first party and it's why I am cautious about beliving they will turn out but it's all a wait and see.
 

GattsuSama

Member
Mar 12, 2020
1,761
I hope stuff like this (if true) and MS buying Bethesda makes Sony make more and bigger blockbuster game because they are good at it.

They are losing out on Starfield and the next Elder Scrolls? Why not have a 1st party space/scifi game say by Naughty Dog as there were rumors of that at one point. Have someone revive Legend of Dragoon. Get the Konami IPs.

I can only imagine great things to Sony responding to stuff like this.
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,469
Does Jim Ryan not think that Microsoft isn't going to use blockbuster games to entice people into their ecosystem?

Maybe they won't be given self-indulgent AAAA budgets all the time for every game that launches day one on Game Pass, but people sub to Netflix for The Witcher and Stranger Things, not an Anthony Jeselnik stand-up special and Portlandia back episodes. Even if there's a ton of value in the latter, the former or the promise thereof is a huge prestige draw.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
So not only are you speculating about potential price increases with nothing but a gut feeling from your own but now you are unsure whether they will keep their first party games on the service while they never even suggested it would not be the case?
Where is that all coming from?
Someone already said that it was the case that they were perm, I looked myself before commenting. Keep up. And yes prices will be going up It's not a matter of if its when.
 

get2sammyb

Editor at Push Square
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
3,006
UK
Firstly, I don't know why this kind of discussion is always fixated on Sony and never Nintendo. Why doesn't Nintendo offer its own version of Game Pass as well? Could it be that Nintendo believes there's more money to be made selling games like Animal Crossing and Zelda full-price at retail than offering them as part of a subscription?

Sony's just come off the back of a generation breaking first-party sales records back-to-back. It'll definitely be crunching the numbers, and it'll know how much it costs to maintain its arsenal of first-party studios, what the budgets are for its games, and how much revenue it can potentially earn through a hypothetical Game Pass-esque subscription service. Clearly it doesn't believe, at this moment, that the sums add up.

There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.
 

Dizastah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,124
Firstly, I don't know why this kind of discussion is always fixated on Sony and never Nintendo. Why doesn't Nintendo offer its own version of Game Pass as well? Could it be that Nintendo believes there's more money to be made selling games like Animal Crossing and Zelda full-price at retail than offering them as part of a subscription?

Sony's just come off the back of a generation breaking first-party sales records back-to-back. It'll definitely be crunching the numbers, and it'll know how much it costs to maintain its arsenal of first-party studios, what the budgets are for its games, and how much revenue it can potentially earn through a hypothetical Game Pass-esque subscription service. Clearly it doesn't believe, at this moment, that the sums add up.

There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.

Winner winner chicken dinner.
 

zaxil456

Member
Aug 4, 2020
1,562
From Aaron G. a few months ago.



If they are losing oodles amount of money from GP, they really don't give a shit. They're in it for the long haul (and the subs) and the Bethesda acquisition is proof that they are 100% committed to this model.

Interesting. I mean it's to the point where people on Twitter have to come out and say they aren't Xbox shills because of how much they're talking about GamePass.
 

Footos22

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,770
Firstly, I don't know why this kind of discussion is always fixated on Sony and never Nintendo. Why doesn't Nintendo offer its own version of Game Pass as well? Could it be that Nintendo believes there's more money to be made selling games like Animal Crossing and Zelda full-price at retail than offering them as part of a subscription?

Sony's just come off the back of a generation breaking first-party sales records back-to-back. It'll definitely be crunching the numbers, and it'll know how much it costs to maintain its arsenal of first-party studios, what the budgets are for its games, and how much revenue it can potentially earn through a hypothetical Game Pass-esque subscription service. Clearly it doesn't believe, at this moment, that the sums add up.

There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.

Nice to see someone on here with sense.
Gamepass will probably never make ms any money. It's like Netflix in that any profits goes straight back into content which is not cheap and Netflix has like 200 million subscribers. Ms won't ever get near that.
 

RedRum

Newbie Paper Plane Pilot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,364
Interesting. I mean it's to the point where people on Twitter have to come out and say they aren't Xbox shills because of how much they're talking about GamePass.

Always going to be an issue when it benefits one side and not the other. You can't ever be excited about anything.

This reminds me of when they said ea access wasn't worthwhile.

Haha. Wasn't a good value for their customers.. winds up in the ecosystem years later anyway after people were defending that it was going to be the downfall of gaming as well know it.
 

lasthope106

Member
Oct 25, 2017
920
Iowa USA
At the end of the day, content will win. And Microsoft is already going ahead with the same mode that Netflix did. Sure one day the price will be higher. But their library will be the attraction. And it already is because they have invested in the infrastructure to keep their catalog current. Sony has a rich catalog and it's locked in older machines.

Microsoft will win in this space, because they have a successful record and they have the muscle to bleed money for years, until they turn things around. Sony on the other hand, is being stubborn and betting people will follow them because of their exclusives. Which is true, but there have been many times when I have wanted to play as PS1, PS2, and PS3 game and I can't on my PS4. They are really underestimating how much people are going to want to do that in the upcoming decades.
 
Mar 19, 2020
1,325
Do you not think that's a terrible comparison to make considering Halo Infinite is a multiplayer game and a "platform" for the next 10 years of the franchise? Does it also look like a $500 million game to you? I can only imagine the budget is that inflated due to mismanagement.
I was more just making a joke than making an air-tight "gotcha" argument. Clearly there are a variety of economic factors that go into why Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo make games in the way that they do. I do think that if he had phrased it more in a way that acknowledged that they cannot monetize their current studio output beyond an initial purchase so therefore a Game Pass doesn't make sense for them, that would have been taken better than implying that their games have such a big budget and ambitions that they could not POSSIBLY consider a Game Pass. Clearly, Microsoft has and will be spending a fricking huge budget on games that seem to be quite ambitious.
 

Liliana

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,375
NYC
Xbox Game Pass is gonna make certain people eat crow this generation (which it kinda already continues to do), especially with the Bethesda acquisition and whatever else they have cooking. Mark my words.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Firstly, I don't know why this kind of discussion is always fixated on Sony and never Nintendo. Why doesn't Nintendo offer its own version of Game Pass as well? Could it be that Nintendo believes there's more money to be made selling games like Animal Crossing and Zelda full-price at retail than offering them as part of a subscription?

Sony's just come off the back of a generation breaking first-party sales records back-to-back. It'll definitely be crunching the numbers, and it'll know how much it costs to maintain its arsenal of first-party studios, what the budgets are for its games, and how much revenue it can potentially earn through a hypothetical Game Pass-esque subscription service. Clearly it doesn't believe, at this moment, that the sums add up.

There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.
Best post so far. They have a successful business model and I want them making only single player games the way they do with great value for me even paying $70 for each of them.
 

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
Of course it isn't, but it's still income that can't be discounted! You can't just say that GP is a massive money loss without crediting the other ways the Xbox Division makes money.

I'm not saying Xbox is a loss leader, i'm saying Gamepass is. Gamepass is not making it's money back for all the money MS is investing into it. It's being subsidized with the hopes that it will grow and become profitable one day.

Just like new hardware usually is.
 

Japanmanx3

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,907
Atlanta, GA
Until Gamepass proves its completely self sustainable, it doesn't make much business sense for Sony to just jump on something so experimental.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Xbox Game Pass is gonna make certain people eat crow this generation (which it kinda already continues to do), especially with the Bethesda acquisition and whatever else they have cooking. Mark my words.
I hope u are right must because of Bethesda, Arkhane, Tango and ID. Let's see how many of these studios will still be making only sp games with no gaas elements, coop or any other online element, besides obvious online franchises. Let's see how many game stays pure sp experiences.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,263
Of course it isn't, but it's still income that can't be discounted! You can't just say that GP is a massive money loss without crediting the other ways the Xbox Division makes money.

They were already making that money before GP. The question is how much of that money is being wiped out by GP investments.
 

KernelC

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
3,561
There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.
afaik they also had their strongest quarter last time but they barely reported profit, I think I remember reading that it was because GamePass is a massive loss for them. And will be for a looong time, but that's the thing, they're in it for the long run
 

jorgejjvr

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
8,423
I would pay up for a gamepass style sub from sony, even if i got their new 1st party exclusives 6-12 months later

I will still have a reason to buy the must haves day 1, there are simply some games i wont be able to wait to play, but if i missed some, i can play them later
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
It's funny. Every single film+television company out there is completely reorganizing their business to get into the subscription services model, and you still have people questioning the viability of that business model.
I mean people willingly believe that "the service is a loss to MS" without providing *any actual proof", not even evidence. But that's fine apparently.
Not that we as a customer should particularly care, at all. I just don't know why people care so much when everything is just speculation anyway. Besides the "fact" that the price will increase :D
 

RedRum

Newbie Paper Plane Pilot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,364
They don't have 90 million Live Gold subscribers. They have 90 million monthly active users, where "users" counts anyone that logs into a Microsoft account to play a game (Minecraft on all platforms does this)
They don't have 90 mill live subscribers. They have 90 million active users. It's not, at all, the same thing.-
100 million active Xbox live users, not Xbox Live Gold members.

Let me put it in financial terms instead of subscription numbers. The Xbox division makes over a billion dollars just from subscriptions alone. This is on top of the traditional way of selling games. I'm just not understanding why GP is being singled for supposedly bleeding so much money without accounting for the other ways of incoming profit, in the same gaming division, to help balance whatever losses there might be.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,781
Firstly, I don't know why this kind of discussion is always fixated on Sony and never Nintendo. Why doesn't Nintendo offer its own version of Game Pass as well? Could it be that Nintendo believes there's more money to be made selling games like Animal Crossing and Zelda full-price at retail than offering them as part of a subscription?

Sony's just come off the back of a generation breaking first-party sales records back-to-back. It'll definitely be crunching the numbers, and it'll know how much it costs to maintain its arsenal of first-party studios, what the budgets are for its games, and how much revenue it can potentially earn through a hypothetical Game Pass-esque subscription service. Clearly it doesn't believe, at this moment, that the sums add up.

There is absolutely no way Microsoft is profiting from Game Pass in its current scenario, hence why it rarely discusses the actual numbers. Game Pass is a loss leader, and either the figures are going to have to tilt favourably or it'll have to steal significant marketshare away from Sony and Nintendo before either completely alter their established (and very effective) business models.
It's good to see more of this kind of sensible input.
 

tutomos

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,612
Let me put it in financial terms instead of subscription numbers. The Xbox division makes over a billion dollars just from subscriptions alone. This is on top of the traditional way of selling games. I'm just not understanding why GP is being singled for supposedly bleeding so much money without accounting for the other ways of incoming profit, in the same gaming division, to help balance whatever losses there might be.

Why is Xbox's revenue half of what Playstation generates when GP is out for two years?
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
Gaming subscription services won't interest me unless every game (first and third party) that comes out on a platform is included on day one. I don't want to pay for a subscription and then still pay for games that aren't there day one on top of that.
I rarely buy games that have been out for a while because if it interests me, I'll want to play it on day one. If it doesn't meet that criteria it won't be worth my time once it hits any subscription services.
I also sometimes go for months without playing games because nothing of interest to me is released so it wouldn't make sense to constantly be subscribed to the service anyways.

Microsoft is close but no cigar. I applaud them for their incredible effort but in the end I'm not a profitable customer for them if I only sub for a month here and there to play a $60 game for $10 and then immediately cancel my sub again.
 

lfelipebr

Member
Dec 29, 2017
177
Piripiri - Brazil
I understand that Microsoft's goal is to attract more consumers to its ecosystem and thereby generate future profits, profits resulting not only from the subscription. And I think it's working.

I have a PS4 Pro, due to Game Pass and the new PS5 game prices I pre-ordered the XSX. I canceled my PS Plus last week and my Cyberpunk 2077 pre-order for Playstation, just pre-ordered for Xbox. Microsoft won me into their ecosystem and Sony, for now, lost me. Two friends of mine did the same.

I know we're just a small example, but I think this Microsoft model will make a huge impact in the long run.

I also believe, like Netflix, that they will invest more in AAA games, precisely to attract even more people.
 

FullNelson

Member
Jan 28, 2019
1,319
Let me put it in financial terms instead of subscription numbers. The Xbox division makes over a billion dollars just from subscriptions alone. This is on top of the traditional way of selling games. I'm just not understanding why GP is being singled for supposedly bleeding so much money without accounting for the other ways of incoming profit, in the same gaming division, to help balance whatever losses there might be.
We actually have the numbers of the income of the gaming division. But MS does not provide the net income of that division. So we know how much money goes in, but we have no idea of how much money goes out.

PS income is almost twice as large as MS income for the gaming division. But, at the same time, the actual profit of Sony is like 10% of their income. Gaming has huge fixed cost, so the margin is pretty slim. So a company that just spent 7.5 billion to acquire a publisher is certainty not making a profit in the short-term, no matter how much live gold subscribers they have currently. Which is fine, that's the catch with subscription services: they are not profitable for a long time until they reach a critical mass. And MS is investing to make the service more attractive to reach such critical mass.

People talk about Netlifx which is a great example. They have a net income similar to Sony's gaming division. But they are also 12 billions in debt, which is not slowing down. These services have huge cost, but they will be fine in the long run. Sony cannot afford that kind of business model for now, since their gaming division is one of their largest cash cows. Who knows about the future, but what Jim Ryan says makes perfect sense for now.
 

pratyush1991

Member
Jan 9, 2020
96
I don't know why people are suprised. Sony cannot compete with Microsoft and can't take loss. Also all of those who think when AAA games start coming day 1 on Gamepass, it won't cost what it cost right now. They are taking a loss to get people in and they can afford to do that.