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Sapo84

Member
Oct 31, 2017
309
Yeah, forgot about VAT. But since 1e is 1.18 USD, even with VAT doesn't that mean the price should be 70 euro? I mean, the old prices were 60 USD game = 60 euro game, so I still see no reason to make it 80 euros.
Well, it's currently 70€ digital / 75€ physical, which is, conversion wise, even worse than 70$/80€.
Both 70€ or 75€ would be a correct EU price imho (with the console being 499 I can see why 75€ may be better to get some extra revenue).

At the start of this gen (november 2013) 1€ was ~1.35$, 60$/60€ at that time still meant that we were paying a lot more here in Europe.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,094
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
Sony could and sony will, they're simply waiting to see how it goes for microsoft.

Perhaps you are right.
So if gamepass proves successful then Sony will follow suit you think? What about Eras comments that games on GP are not for AAA games and that gamepass will make games less "blockbuster:y"/smaller in scope?
Because this has been the mantra against Gamepass. Would Sony still follow suit?
 

Ryengeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,649
Georgia, US
Easy to forget that Uplay+ exists too I guess.

Ubisoft's games are huge budget AAA productions too, but the games come to the service day one. Obviously only available on PC and soon Stadia - time will tell if they bring the same service to consoles.
They may be big AAA titles but most of Ubisoft games come with a digital in-game storefront with plenty of timesavers/mtx's to alleviate a lot of the grind they implement into their game design.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Been making the point about GamePass that this business model won't be a good fit for the big AAA single-player experiences like we know from Sony.

80€ is a lot of money. Sony will have to justify this pricepoint with exceptionally great games.

They clearly believe in generations. They just don't think he current generations is ready to die.

They won't die for quite a while.
The install-base is massive and unless we are talking high-end gaming the machines aren't technically outdated.
Like, they are still more capable than the best set-top boxes and SmartTVs you can find.
Ps4 will stick around for many years to come.
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,093
Let's be honest here,
Sony releases maybe 2-3 Blockbusters a year, and I doubt the rest of the game listed outside of that have huge budget or sales (MLB sell about 1 million a year?).

Assuming Sony had to make all thier money on a Game Pass type service, they'd need to be grossing north of 3.5-4 Billion per year to do just as good as they do now.

4 Billion ÷ 180 (12 x $15/month) = 22,222,222 subscribers. Does anyone honestly believe that Sony couldn't hit that subscriber number? Not only do I think they could hit that easily (and blow past it), they would assuredly still sell games incredibly well at retail and thier console store.

A Sony Game Pass is incredibly viable, thier only probably is a lack of motivation to get started.

2020
- Dreams (Blockbuster)
- The Last of Us 2 (Blockbuster)
- Ghost of Tsushima (Blockbuster)
- Predator Hunting Grounds
- MLB The Show 20
- Patapon 2 Remastered
- Iron Man VR

2019
- Death Stranding (Blockbuster)
- Blood and Truth VR
- MLB The Show 19
- Medievil
- Concrete Genie
- Firewall Zero Operation Heartland /nightfall VR
- Erica
- Everybody's Golf VR
- Days Gone (Blockbuster)
- Kingdom Hearts VR Experience
- Melbits world
This is why I think you will see this model improve and become a bigger touchstone in the industry. Especially as games become more expensive it will become more risky to invest in new single player IP without persistent spending or the cover of a sub service to draw heat away and shield the studios from losses

Thanks for the math too, I've often thought the sweet spot for gamepass would be 25 million concurrents at full price which is why they have expanded aggressively to Pc and cloud.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
Does anyone honestly believe that Sony couldn't hit that subscriber number? Not only do I think they could hit that easily (and blow past it), they would assuredly still sell games incredibly well at retail and thier console store.

IIRC Michael Pachter said that Sony and MS had similar subscriber numbers for PS Plus and XBL Gold, even though PS4 has about double the consoles. That's for a $5/month service (annualized). So their customer base already is about half as likely to pay for services.
 

Asklepios

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,505
United Kingdom
I don't know if his statement is true but with number of exclusive hits Sony has it can get away with it if it continues to deliver on the quality.

As a consumer am I glad? Obviously not but will it stop me from buying a $70 uncharted 5? Absolutely not.

But they shouldn't be so complacent when it comes to PSnow . It's not available in half of the world and it's collection is pathetic compared to game pass. Ps plus collection? Really? It should merge PSnow with psplus and then I will be able to totally let go of the fact they won't be adding new exclusives in the mix.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,507
IIRC Michael Pachter said that Sony and MS had similar subscriber numbers for PS Plus and XBL Gold, even though PS4 has about double the consoles. That's for a $5/month service (annualized). So their customer base already is about half as likely to pay for services.

PS+ has more than 40m subscribers, I doubt Live Gold ratio is almost 1:1.
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
The quote from Games Industry is more interesting, if it wasn't shared already.

"We have had this conversation before -- we are not going to go down the road of putting new releases titles into a subscription model. These games cost many millions of dollars, well over $100 million, to develop. We just don't see that as sustainable.

"We want to make the games bigger and better, and hopefully at some stage more persistent. So putting those into a subscription model on day one, for us, just doesn't make any sense. For others in a different situation, it might well make sense, but for us it doesn't. We want to expand and grow our existing ecosystem."

"More persistent"?

That sounds a lot like code for GaaS to me. Any other possible interpretations?
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,508
Vancouver, BC
This is why I think you will see this model improve and become a bigger touchstone in the industry. Especially as games become more expensive it will become more risky to invest in new single player IP without persistent spending or the cover of a sub service to draw heat away and shield the studios from losses

Thanks for the math too, I've often thought the sweet spot for gamepass would be 25 million concurrents at full price which is why they have expanded aggressively to Pc and cloud.

Yeah, I agree, 25 million subscribers is likely about the Goal for Microsoft, and would probably work for Sony as well.

I revised the numbers above to also include PS Plus subscribers, but that likely wasn't necesary, since people who don't subscribe to the Game Pass type service, would likely still subscribe to PS Plus, so it's a wash.

I think this model could, and likely will be hugely successful for Microsoft. It's a bitbifba self fulfilling prophecy, since the more money the service brings in, the more money the company has to invest in better games. The better the games, the bigger the subscriber base grows.

But I do also think it makes a lot more sense for Microsoft to pursue. Sony does have a very successful buisness strategy right now.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Jim Ryans is the Uli Hoeness of video games...

(I should probably clarify, not the tax evading side of Uli Hoeness, but more the always trying to spout something trying to get one over the other teams, even when said nonsense then gets dialed back later)
 

Bulby

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,035
Berlin
He's obviously speaking about now and the near future, not 5 years from now.

Why are some of you so angry and toxic about this stuff? He "should just shut up?" Really?

Relax, Im just bullshitting. I dont have any dog in this race, neither am I angry. Dude put his foot massively in his mouth already about Sony's philosophy.

And its the same for everyone at the end of the day. Money talks and bullshit walks.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,219
Microsoft can afford to have far lower profit margins or even operate at a loss because gaming isn't their main source of profits.

So yes, they can probably create AAA blockbusters and safely make far less money and not have it affect them one tiny iota.

Hell the whole Xbox brand could crater non stop financially and they'll still be top of the pack in terms of overall business revenue from things like windows.

Sony couldn't take those kind of losses though, their gaming division is too valuable.

The question didn't exactly suggest that they put these games on there day one. They already bundle the old ones with PS Plus anyway.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
This is one of the strangest posts I've ever seen. Why would you ever be glad about this?

Because it means that Sony will continue investing heavily in the massive, extremely polished single-player experiences they had so much success with this gen.



This is not the case right now, as they're asking 80€ for a remaster and cross-gen titles.

They can still be exceptional. I mean that's the point.
Asking for more money means you need to really deliver more, not just a few enhancements here and there. It needs to be a significant upgrade.
 

Bait02

Member
Jan 5, 2019
645
While I'm not defending Sony here, I have to say this really depends on what you personally value. Some of these games I played and replayed and got insane value out of them. Some even hundreds of hours. 12 movie tickets is around 25 hours, and if I don't like these movies, it's 25 wasted hours.

Again, not defending Sony, especially after learning the 80e bullshit (just a few posts above). But just saying that I personally prefer quality over quantity, so if Sony really makes these amazing games like they did this gen, I will still prefer them instead of 10 lower-quality games for the same price (and I'll still be pissed they are charging me 80 fucking euros, but I will buy them).
Absolutely true, the value you get form an opera is completely personal. And, while I understand that you're willing to pay even that price for these games since you really like them, It doesn't change the fact that thier statement is bogus.
A blockbuster production value doesn't jusfity a price increase if even the "real" blockbuster industry doesn't rely on price increases to stay profitable. As I exemplified the "blockbuster business model" is much more accessible on other mediums comparatively and that's because profit is driven by scale rather than unitary price.
The real reason why they want to increase prices is to "lock you in": if they convince you it's ok to pay more, it means you'll be even more committed to their platform, you'll pay more to have conceptually the same product as a gen before (only made with more advanced technology) and you'll have less choice to try or buy competing products (assuming your budget stays the same).
 

E.T.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,035
"More persistent"?

That sounds a lot like code for GaaS to me. Any other possible interpretations?
Nothing wrong with pursuing that style of game it makes financial sense at the time. The industry is constantly evolving, so we have no idea what the landscape looks like going forward.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
This is one of the strangest posts I've ever seen. Why would you ever be glad about this?

Because I enjoy the AAA games Sony makes.

If they adopt a Game Pass subscription they will make less money from these titles and in all likelihood make less of them or not give them the same budget or focus.

So if the current model is what it takes to get these type of games I like, then i'm fine with it.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
well maybe not necessarily mtx or multiplayer focused. but engagement is definitely a big factor for MS. Sea of Thieves, Grounded, and apparently Halo is also gonna be platforms.

Sony AAA cinematic games are the kind of games that you played once and move on to the next game, maybe come back for occasional dlc, MS games seems to favor games that you keep playing for a long time with continuous updates. because making you to keep your subscription is a huge part of MS business model.

nothing wrong with that kind of games. but for me personally, I like Sony type of games more. a game that has definite ending that you can move on from.
This is not true though.

Gaming for Sony is a core business, and being that, they have an obligation to try and make as much money from it. Gaming for Microsoft is ancillary revenue, essentially a side hustle that is in itself profitable. Microsoft is not a market leader, and as such they tend to try a lot more things when it comes to hardware and services.

It simply does not look like a financially prudent decision for Sony at the current moment to have a subscription service. It has nothing to do with the style and type of game, if it did, you would not see Microsoft investing in all these single player titles that they are investing in.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,491
Indonesia
Well, then they should have been upfront with that, and putting the ps4 logo in their June trailers.
Maybe these are all ps5 only games until some people complaint about anti consumer so they added ps4 port, performance be damned, lol.

Personally, I think Miles Morales and Horizon FW looks amazing, beyond what ps4 could do, so I'm really curious what the ps4 version would look like whether it'll just be resolution drop or there are other more drastic changes
 

Kilgore

Member
Feb 5, 2018
3,538
He still does, though. Ratchet, Demon's Souls, Returnal aren't cross-gen. Not every launch window game needs to be PS5-only.
Then again, they weren't trying to build a narrative that they are only releasing ps5 games, why hide that some of their games shown in june were crossgen?
 

E.T.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,035
If Jim Ryan is the only thing people can complain about then Sony did a magnificent job. People are absolutely over-reacting because there is not much else to hang to and criticise. Besides maybe the elevated game prices, and even then they would bring those down if the industry does not adopt that price point either. Sony have historically been very good with game sales and bringing down first party prices.

And Jim has historically been excellent for PlayStation EU, and I am sure they crunched all the numbers and came to conclusions that made most sense to them in order to transition to the PS5 smoothly and effectively without abandoning their massive 115m users on the PS4. If a sub service is something that makes sense they will surely consider it and do it.
 

Cokesouls

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,350
Fuck off with your 80€ bullshit Jim. Buying exclusives from cd keys if I have to.
 

Bulby

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,035
Berlin
Because I enjoy the AAA games Sony makes.

If they adopt a Game Pass subscription they will make less money from these titles and in all likelihood make less of them or not give them the same budget or focus.

So if the current model is what it takes to get these type of games I like, then i'm fine with it.

If Sony could get 30 million subscribers to a $10-$15 a month subscription service. That would completely blow out what they make from selling games at $60 annually.

And they could probably hit 20-30 million subscribers without breaking a sweat.
 

Tigerfan2019

Member
Jun 14, 2020
780
Sony single player only games really don't fit a day one subscription model, people would just buy PS Now for the month the game the want release on it.
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,177
I think the true reason is that Sony wants these first-party sales because they just make them great profit. And yes, they're expensive to make. Microsoft can probably keep the pricing for Game Pass lower due to their overall financial situation. For consumers, it's a great deal.

And Microsoft is certainly stepping up their first party, it's clear that Avowed, Fable, Halo, Gears, Everwild, Hellblade 2, The Initiative's game are all AAA or 'blockbuster' games. So Game Pass will have more and more big titles like it - I guess Sony will respond in a couple years.
 

Deleted member 70824

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2020
923
Fair enough. I bet the cost of price cutting PS5 Digital has a lot to do with it too. No way Sony will be willing to take a big loss at $399 AND offer a Game Pass like subscription.

Microsoft benefit by Sony's approach here. Rising game costs are already ruffling feathers, and that makes Game Pass a very valuable service to have.
 

Kitano

Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,216
Take Xbox/PC for Gamepass, PS5 for exclusives.

What Jim said makes total sense. It's the same case as Nintendo, do you see a Gamepass-like subscription coming to Switch?

I do not.
 

Imur

Member
Jan 4, 2018
485
As soon as Microsoft Games starting to even scratch on the quality Level of God of War or Last of us 2 regulary, I will start believing, that Gamepass Money is enough to do what Sony does. I'm sure Gears 5 did cost a lot of money, but I forgot about it the moment the Credits ran. And Halo...you saw Halo.

Flight Simulator might be an expectation, but it has a very Special target group and I guess a lot of them will buy it without using the gamepass. My dad doesn't even know about GP and he is a very big fan of the Flight Simulator games.

I would love to be wrong, it would be better for everyone. Even if Sony would not use something like a gamepass, they couldn't rise prices as much as they do now. I just don't want to dispense games like TLOU2 and can't see something like it in MS lineup YET.
 
May 18, 2018
687
Well after playing TLOU2, I'm now moving to the 'I'll wait until their prices drop' for 1st party games 'unless' I'm blown away.

I mean Demon Souls looks good in parts but is there anything on ps5 that looks as good as Killzone SF ps4 launch? Nah.

Add the fact it looks like ps4 games won't be getting any improvements if played on ps5 (other than maybe load times), I think I'm gonna wait and get a ps5 at a later date. More than likely with discounted games and sort out a pc rig too.

I wonder if more people are thinking like me and this 'new' Sony PlayStation leadership will get a kick in the arse. Its well deserved IMO.