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Jeff Minter still haven't made a penny from 'Polybius' on PS4/PSVR (update: admin error, has actually made money)
- Thread starter Arthands
- Start date
Yes, indies don't sell on ps4 which is why they pretty much all end up there.
It's an obstacle-based, time trial racing game, crossed with the shooting mechanics of Tempest on a 2D plane. Scoring is based on speed and other multiplier modifiers by shooting.
This game isn't a Tempest clone.
This game melts your eyes, ears and mind. Then it fuses them together and slaps you in the face in VR. Einstein once asked what it would feel like to ride a photon at the speed of light - this game answers it.
No need to be daft. Of course the games still sell there, but indies seem to perform much, much better on PC and most definitely on Switch. Sales numbers for indies are exponential on that platform.
Minter games never sell. He makes games for a niche hardcore group of people and cries about sales afterwards.
Sad to hear this having bought the game day 1.
Not sure this is true. Giles did a lot of work on Polybius too.
I've honestly never heard of or seen it before. It does look cool though so I will probably pick it up now.
"Cries", huh?
If my eyes were to roll any further back in my head you'd think I was playing a Llamasoft game.
Seems to be a recurring theme with him. He's clearly chosen to make the type of games he wants to make rather than games that are commercially viable.
It's true that he iterates on old arcade classics, but I certainly don't remember playing anything like polybius back in 85. I'm really jealous of whatever secret games you had access to back then. A genuine Polybius cabinet, mayhap?
I don't know if anyone has posted it already, but here is the music video by NIN. Kind of an unexpected collaboration, but apparently Reznor is a fan of Minters work.
This is starting to feel like a self perpetuating myth. All Minters games have very unique and varied game mechanics. The people who complain that he only does the same game over and over really confuse me. He has done a few Tempest inspired games, true. But each one is very different. He's also done a lot of completely different games. Gridrunner was my favourite ios game for a long time, and Polybius only has the perspective in common with Tempest.
There is infinitely less variation between the majority of first person shooters or open world games than there is between most of Minters output. I've played his games since the c64, and actually think he's better than ever.
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Am i the only one getting a headache from watching this?. What does all the flashing lights serve other then to reduce readability?
Well I could say the diversity of his work is staggering, but not in the good sense.
I don't really think those games have anything in common, to be honest. One game (Thumper) is all about completely exhausting your stress system and the other is a meditative zen experience that relaxes you (Polybius). Minter games may look chaotic and insane, but they're ingeniously designed to get you into a zen mode of total relaxation. Would explain why something like Polybius was able to win Edge magazine's VR GOTY (although it obviously also supported 2D @ 4K @ 60fps). Because he's a genius mastercraftsman and it shows in his games.
I think the bigger issue, and one that isn't really solvable, is people just going "No market... blah.. blah." This is probably true, but it's also sad. Because we're looking at a future where there's only a handful of games that can make any money (even if we're talking about supporting a very tiny team) and they'll all look the same. Because anything else that challenges the gamer to learn something a little different is too antagonizing to them. I guess it won't matter for students who can work for free, but it's going to drive out everyone in between (that gap between students and factory workers on AAA games... be they traditional AAA or indie AAA). That's kind of sad of you like diversity in your games:(
I guess we have to agree to disagree.
It's a very different thing playing it yourself. It looks overwhelming, but after a while you just sort of fall into the rythm of things, and all the flashing almost puts you in a trance. Also, that footage is captured while playing in VR, it isn't really representative of the full experience.
Yes I think so, but that sums up Jeff Minter to a T wouldn't you say? For some reason there is very little middle ground when it comes to Minter.
I will say there is something to be said for making the type of games you yourself would love to play.
I suppose that's true. As much as I obviously love his games, especially his later output, I totally understand why they're not for everybody. Either way he is a unique creator, and I honestly feel the medium benefits a lot from his vision, whether one likes his games or not.
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Looking at the trailer, i see cheap graphics as possible, too chaotic and too fast action, i don't understand what is going on.
The game looks like something not polished; like thousand of game you can find on itch io.
He should have put more work on the game design and make it less cheap.
The game looks like something not polished; like thousand of game you can find on itch io.
He should have put more work on the game design and make it less cheap.
Half of Jeff's mobile titles went into completely different direction than his stereotypical shooters. He wasn't particularly happy about sales of these either. It's hard to say what exactly does he mean by "not making a penny yet" though, since with this sort of enterprises one wouldn't expect him to pay himself a constant sum of money and then calculate profit from that. I wouldn't make such post unless the revenue was literally below cost of hardware and any licensed things - or is withheld by Sony due to performance thresholds or something along the lines.
User Warned: Console Warring
Yup. Look at all the "Indie dev announced Switch version of game outsold all other versions" success stories — you can find them by the sound of HD Fanboys(tm) gnashing their teeth and downplaying the accomplishments. Being exclusive to PlayStation is even worse, because the user base is all into "cinematic experiences" with scruffy macho men, which is diametrically opposite to the Minter aesthetic.
The difference between the complaints I'm reading about Minter's games and what I've actually played is kind of mind-boggling. It's like posts from a completely different world. Polybius is a pure pyrotechnic joyride, Space Giraffe is the anti-Tempest with incredible depth in its mechanics. Minter has made Tempest 2000, Tempest 3000, and TxK, which is three games plus Space Giraffe as a counterpoint.
It's probably the best PSVR game IMO. It's so smooth at 120fps; I was properly gutted that GB didn't even discuss it during best music or best style.
Llamasoft without the Llamas would mean the end of times.
The Polybius soundtrack is right up there with TxK (tho I think TxK is a little better). It's like having a rave in your face! Minter is a genuine furry raver (i've seen the pics on his Twitter) so his music choice is legit.
It's great without VR.
Those decades of iteration are why his games are so perfect. There's nothing in them that doesn't need to be there.
Trent is an artist with good taste.
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Has Atari even commented on the tempest 4000 delay - that somehow occurred post release lol?
Eww, no way. Minter needs to stay Minter, very much hope he never listens to an opinion like this.
Eww, no way. Minter needs to stay Minter, very much hope he never listens to an opinion like this.
2000% agreed on Minter needs to stay Minter. Tempest 2000%, even.
It's super fun how some users in this thread have a way of thinking close to an EA executive.
If an eccentric game with its own personal style and a niche focus didn't work, let's completely change this game by making a completely different concept, let's make a completely different art style that instead of being a expression of the creativity and personality of the creator, it results in a game looking at the trends in the market, and we need to be sure that it looks and plays like any other of the thousands of games in the market.
Also, for those writing nonsense about the decision of releasing 'TkX' in Vita.
- 'TkX' was one of the most successful and profitable games by Jeff Minter. Playstation Vita, contrary to the current Playstation 4 user base, it had a well educated public actively buying indie titles, and not judging video games by their production values. Sure, none the console or the games put the charts on fire, but for these small productions to be successful you only need a small dedicated fanbase interested in these games. Jeff Minter is not stupid, and he knows that he is making niche games, so he is creating his games with budgets accordingly to this small user base. What probably Jeff Minter wasn't able to imagine is the decline of the indie market happened in PS4 in 2017, with Sony completely stopping their marketing support for these games. The opposite of what Sony did with the original release of 'TxK' in Vita: they did an amazing work promoting not only this release, but many other indie titles. Today, they have completely changed their focus to highlight only big productions.
- 'TkX' had planned ports for Playstation 4, Steam and the Oculus Rift. But he was forced to cancel these ports, because he was sued by Atari.
If an eccentric game with its own personal style and a niche focus didn't work, let's completely change this game by making a completely different concept, let's make a completely different art style that instead of being a expression of the creativity and personality of the creator, it results in a game looking at the trends in the market, and we need to be sure that it looks and plays like any other of the thousands of games in the market.
Also, for those writing nonsense about the decision of releasing 'TkX' in Vita.
- 'TkX' was one of the most successful and profitable games by Jeff Minter. Playstation Vita, contrary to the current Playstation 4 user base, it had a well educated public actively buying indie titles, and not judging video games by their production values. Sure, none the console or the games put the charts on fire, but for these small productions to be successful you only need a small dedicated fanbase interested in these games. Jeff Minter is not stupid, and he knows that he is making niche games, so he is creating his games with budgets accordingly to this small user base. What probably Jeff Minter wasn't able to imagine is the decline of the indie market happened in PS4 in 2017, with Sony completely stopping their marketing support for these games. The opposite of what Sony did with the original release of 'TxK' in Vita: they did an amazing work promoting not only this release, but many other indie titles. Today, they have completely changed their focus to highlight only big productions.
- 'TkX' had planned ports for Playstation 4, Steam and the Oculus Rift. But he was forced to cancel these ports, because he was sued by Atari.
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That sounds like you want an artist to make a game where their art is not reflected in the work. What would even be the purpose of that?
Again, this is a platform issue. I would have bought the game on both PC and Switch if it was available for both, and I know I'm not alone in wanting to play the game on a preferred platform. I played an original Tempest cabinet about three days ago and the aesthetic is still incredibly beautiful and interesting, not to mention fun to play.
Many equate success purely to profit and rarely consider the human aspect of artistic creativity.
I believe those types are not artists, but more "technical" and "business" focused individuals. The creative process matters little compared to the monetary aspect of the product, usually due to a lack of critical thinking.
What is it with devs expecting their games to sell because it exists?
A quick look on YouTube shows nobody really wanted or cared about this game.
Even if you add the PS Europe account, the first trailer of this game struggles to hit 200k views from announcement till today.
If you remove the word "trailer" from the search query this game barely scrapes 50k views.
There is no way this game was gonna be successful on any platform and at any price with that little user interest.
Sometimes products just fail. Not everything can find an audience.
A quick look on YouTube shows nobody really wanted or cared about this game.
Even if you add the PS Europe account, the first trailer of this game struggles to hit 200k views from announcement till today.
If you remove the word "trailer" from the search query this game barely scrapes 50k views.
There is no way this game was gonna be successful on any platform and at any price with that little user interest.
Sometimes products just fail. Not everything can find an audience.
What a stupid bloody post, which I am sure is just to belittle and generalise players on a platform you dislike. How you get away with posting this is beyond me, its bullshit.
Shame the game didnt sell, lots of indies make a killing on PSN but this one is a bit too niche and it wouldn't matter what platform it is available on imo.
The store is drowning in small indie games so i can imagine its hard to stick out, must be tough for all these small devs.
PSVR is the larger audience...by a large margin. I suspect this will spur some sales, since it's an outstanding game.
There are retro arcade game fans on PC but HouseMarq, arguably the best developer of modern arcade style shooters, just ditched the arcade genre as a whole after Nex Machina failed to capture the level of sales that would have supported ongoing development after launching on PC first.
VR is feast or famine right now since VR and particularly PSVR games aren't being reviewed on a regualr basis by the mainstream game journalist industry when they should be getting reviewed. Only the games with a largest marketing budgets have a shot at selling very well.
Part of it is Minter is often the one complaining about the sales. the other is of course the debate over how much should an artist reach out to an audience or if doing do is selling out is real old and a lot more complicated then most people give it credit for. It could very much be argued that if you feel that what you are saying with your art is something that should be heard then finding way to make on-ramps for your audience, who are under no obligation to have to listen to you, is what any good artist should do. That "If you don't listen to me exactly as I want I'll just take my ball and go home" is somewhat juvenile. At the same time you always risk losing what made your work unique in that reaching out to an audience, and if they don't want to hear it is that not their own problem?
These are hard questions that every artist has to answer for themselves, and I think there's a lot more nuance then "reaching out to audience bad, refusing to change anything you come up with good" or the other way.around.
At the same time if you've been making games for decades and sticking to your vision with little to no comprises and never gotten any real sales, well at a certain point you either have to go "not compromising is more impotent" and give up on sales, or yes think of way to keep the core what you are doing intact well finding ways to make that more palatable to your audience, but you have to choose one.
These are hard questions that every artist has to answer for themselves, and I think there's a lot more nuance then "reaching out to audience bad, refusing to change anything you come up with good" or the other way.around.
At the same time if you've been making games for decades and sticking to your vision with little to no comprises and never gotten any real sales, well at a certain point you either have to go "not compromising is more impotent" and give up on sales, or yes think of way to keep the core what you are doing intact well finding ways to make that more palatable to your audience, but you have to choose one.
Sony made a $1BILLION+ on PSVR last year, fads in gaming don't make 1B+. Have whatever personal opinion you want FACTS are objectively true and irrefutable.
Fortunately, Jeff Minter is doing well, making enough money for a living. And he is currently in a journey visiting the city of Rome.
Without Jeff Minter I would not have become a game developer.
So there would have been no Burnout, no Burnout 2 Point of Impact, no Burnout 3 Takedown, no Burnout Revenge, no BLACK, no Burnout Paradise, no Dangerous Golf, no Lethal VR, no Danger Zone, no Danger Zone 2!
They never would have happened because I would have ended up, to paraphrase Jeff "as a breadhead" or worse "buying, selling or processing something" (thanks Lloyd!)
I own nearly all of this early VIC-20 titles on cassette. And I've still got them!
The first game I ever played on what I was told was a "VIC-64" was Jeff's "Attack of the Mutant Camels' - (and the first game I ever saw boot on a 1541 drive to boot)
At the early computer fairs and exhibitions in the UK in the 80's the Llamasoft stand was always a hive of activity.
Unlike a lot of other famous coders, Jeff always made time to be around and talk to his fans. (He signed my mate Ozzy's copy of "Iridis Alpha." with 'have a zarjaz blast!")
Jeff countless inspired many other people to become interested in microcomputers, coin-ops and gaming. Jeff also wrote and circulated his own newsletter to fans in the 80's. He was one of the few people writing about what was happening in the arcade scene. It was because of him I learned about games like "OutRun" and "Space Harrier.' It was Jeff who told me how good the GameBoy was, what the PC Engine was like, and what the Sega Megadrive was. There was no internet back then, and only C+VG featured coverage of arcade games. Quality information was scarce.
If I'd never gone out seeking an 'OutRun' machine then there definitely would never have been a Burnout game.
His work has been nothing but unique and original. He's always tried new things on new hardware. He's taken more risks than most developers will ever do in a lifetime. The only 'herd' he has ever chased has been his own.
He continues to do so today. He's an independent developer and he's still going. Still making games. And arguably doing his best work right now.
As a self funded independent developer myself I know first hand how hard it can be to both develop and publish games across multiple platforms and multiple digital stores.
The fact that he has still not yet been recognised by either the DICE Awards, BAFTA in the UK or The Game Awards is saddening.
(I hope that Richard, Harvey or Geoff will rectify this someday soon.)
The industry needs more developers like Jeff.
I can only hope that threads like this one will help gamers to take time to discover his work and join me in celebrating a truly unique and visionary gaming talent.
So there would have been no Burnout, no Burnout 2 Point of Impact, no Burnout 3 Takedown, no Burnout Revenge, no BLACK, no Burnout Paradise, no Dangerous Golf, no Lethal VR, no Danger Zone, no Danger Zone 2!
They never would have happened because I would have ended up, to paraphrase Jeff "as a breadhead" or worse "buying, selling or processing something" (thanks Lloyd!)
I own nearly all of this early VIC-20 titles on cassette. And I've still got them!
The first game I ever played on what I was told was a "VIC-64" was Jeff's "Attack of the Mutant Camels' - (and the first game I ever saw boot on a 1541 drive to boot)
At the early computer fairs and exhibitions in the UK in the 80's the Llamasoft stand was always a hive of activity.
Unlike a lot of other famous coders, Jeff always made time to be around and talk to his fans. (He signed my mate Ozzy's copy of "Iridis Alpha." with 'have a zarjaz blast!")
Jeff countless inspired many other people to become interested in microcomputers, coin-ops and gaming. Jeff also wrote and circulated his own newsletter to fans in the 80's. He was one of the few people writing about what was happening in the arcade scene. It was because of him I learned about games like "OutRun" and "Space Harrier.' It was Jeff who told me how good the GameBoy was, what the PC Engine was like, and what the Sega Megadrive was. There was no internet back then, and only C+VG featured coverage of arcade games. Quality information was scarce.
If I'd never gone out seeking an 'OutRun' machine then there definitely would never have been a Burnout game.
His work has been nothing but unique and original. He's always tried new things on new hardware. He's taken more risks than most developers will ever do in a lifetime. The only 'herd' he has ever chased has been his own.
He continues to do so today. He's an independent developer and he's still going. Still making games. And arguably doing his best work right now.
As a self funded independent developer myself I know first hand how hard it can be to both develop and publish games across multiple platforms and multiple digital stores.
The fact that he has still not yet been recognised by either the DICE Awards, BAFTA in the UK or The Game Awards is saddening.
(I hope that Richard, Harvey or Geoff will rectify this someday soon.)
The industry needs more developers like Jeff.
I can only hope that threads like this one will help gamers to take time to discover his work and join me in celebrating a truly unique and visionary gaming talent.
I don't think you know how fads work. They make a TON of money, but only for a limited time. Some times only a year some time up to a decade. You only know if something was a fad if years later you can look back and go "wow remember when everyone was all about X, man now so few people care about it."
Some of the posts in this thread are shocking and seem to almost resent the idea of niche games, driven by mechanics and artistic expression, even being made.
By all means take Minter to task if he is bemoaning the profitability of what he no doubt knows are games with an incredibly limited player base but this notion that the games themselves are at fault and it'd be better if they were homogenized is the kind of attitude that leads to the gaming climate we have in which design by committee AAA drivel dominates what people play.
By all means take Minter to task if he is bemoaning the profitability of what he no doubt knows are games with an incredibly limited player base but this notion that the games themselves are at fault and it'd be better if they were homogenized is the kind of attitude that leads to the gaming climate we have in which design by committee AAA drivel dominates what people play.
One thing missing from this thread is how Polybius, and by extension most PSVR (launch) exclusives, drop like a thud with minimal promotional muscle from Sony. Same with Moss, Starblood Arena, Statik, Super HyperCube, The Inpatient, and Dino Frontier. I have yet to get a proactive "hey this is coming" alert from anybody on any of those games. In all of those cases, i've only gotten advance news alerts and review access when I've proactively nagged the devs, who are all small houses with zero PR focus.
It's worse than Vita in that respect, quite frankly. And that's saying something. Sony could at the very least get these games into the hands of dedicated VR outlets and streamers, if not standard press, and they consistently don't. Consider that but one part of the greater PSVR story as of late.
It's worse than Vita in that respect, quite frankly. And that's saying something. Sony could at the very least get these games into the hands of dedicated VR outlets and streamers, if not standard press, and they consistently don't. Consider that but one part of the greater PSVR story as of late.