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Jeff Grubb : Microsoft didn't fund Moon Studios next game, due to becoming aware of the studios oppressive culture.

OldMuffin

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,179
- Activision emplyees happy with the acquistion because it means proper change in the company
- yet people would prefer the company goes down completely & everyone loses their jobs cause of a few bad apples who were never going to step from external pressure

it's unfortunate that many of them are getting away with it, but the alternative was that they get away with it, whilst everyone else also lose their jobs.
ms is no saviour, but there is indeed a silver lining here compared to things just continuing as normal
 
Sacul64

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,784
Glace said:
If Activision crashes do does Kotick.
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Bobby is a fucking Billionaire he literally cannot crash

Bobby Kotick Net Worth in 2021

Robert A. Kotick, the CEO of Activision, recently requested to be paid a minimum salary. But what is Bobby Kotick's net worth in 2021?
clutchpoints.com

At this point the people bringing up activation in unrelated topics should net bans considering its in bad faith with how little concern is shown when its Sony.
www.resetera.com

[Axios] Eight more women allege sexism at PlayStation, intensifying lawsuit News

Eight more women, former and current employees at Sony PlayStation, have added their accounts of sexist treatment to a proposed class-action lawsuit against the gaming giant. Why it matters: The new declarations add to former IT security analyst Emma Majo's assertion that PlayStation, like many...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
 

OldMuffin

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,179
lvl 99 Pixel said:
Sony has many women coming out about abuse, some looking very similar to what went down at Acti-Blizz. It looked really fucking bad but seemed to disappear from discourse.
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As long as people continue to get their shinny new toy, it doesn't matter how many people suffer.
Seen it several times from fanboys, like what happened with hogworths legacy, what continues to happen with cod & hell even in this situation.
I've seen people ignore this entire situation on Twitter cause their games are coming to PlayStation now, and that's all they care about.
 
craven68

craven68

Member
Jun 20, 2018
4,556
So why mod are doing nothing on this thread ? moon studio is doing shit…and people are just talking about activision blabla. Feel like kindergarden…
this thead should be just talking about the toxicity from the studio head of moon studio.
 

gregorramz

Member
Mar 24, 2020
204
It is explained time and time again that Kotick is already a millionaire, possibly billionaire, and he will get paid because he owns ABK stock worth millions of dollars. It shouldn't be hard to understand ffs. Claiming otherwise is only trolling at this point.

And this topic is not even about ABK.
 
arsene_P5

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
GamerForever said:
Why not make the same moral decision to not buy Activision? Saying funding a game and buying a publisher is different, its not. Any company should shy away from buying Activision.
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Except it is different. MS can't control anything Moon does. But they can control what their developers do and are responsible for them.
GamerForever said:
So what if there is explanations, my opinion havent changed. Morally no company should touch Activision, rather pressure Activison too get their shit right.
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Realistically nobody can seriously pressure them though. There are contracts signed and those count for both parties. So MS or Sony can't just delist warzone with a comment that AB CEO sucks.
 
Siresly

Siresly

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,590
Entirely confounded by behavior like this. So very pointlessly destructive. And their response basically dismisses all the feedback, expresses self-pity about how not nice it will be to read bad things for them, criticizes employees who choose to talk to journalists, encourages them to defend the company on social media, and frames this story being published as an ordeal they'll have to weather, so I doubt things are going to change any time soon. The founders just seem like incomprehensibly stubborn assholes completely lost up their own asses. But maybe from now on it will be to their own detriment as well, and if change isn't spurned by rational decency, then hopefully by their reputation and business suffering.

And wow that VentureBeat article is comprehensive.

thomasmahler Please fix whatever is wrong with you.
 
Trunchisholm

Trunchisholm

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,404
What a shitshow of a thread. There's the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to make sure that people know MS's not your friend and they're only in for the money. Well, no shit. Thanks for stating the obvious and derailing the thread in the process.

The news here is not even about good guy Microsoft. It's about Moon leadership being so utterly shit and burning so many bridges that even MS had to drop them after they made two of their best received games last gen.
 
Nali

Nali

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,668
I'd say I'm not surprised about Mahler, but this is actually much worse than his posts here made him come off as, good lord.

Speaks well for the folks in charge at Microsoft, at least.
 
SCUMMbag

SCUMMbag

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,621
This thread being longer than the one about the actual allegations says it all really.

War. War never changes.
 
GamerForever

GamerForever

Member
Oct 27, 2017
391
wwm0nkey

wwm0nkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,602
Can we seriously either get temp bans or something for the consolewaring/whataboutism/derailing. This thread was not a good place for it and always seems to just fly by.
 

Panic Freak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,588
Glace said:
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform. But obviously that would be actually pretty painful for Microsoft so let's make progress only when it's profitable.

Similarly they most likely could have bought Moon Studios and the owners would have made out with tons of cash too while MS comes in to "clean it up". But it was determined not as essential because let's face it while Ori games are critical darling they're not system sellers.
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Kotick and the 20000 people that work for ABK. Don't let your hatred of one man lead you to hurt 20000
 
Trup1aya

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,476
Damn,

This is disappointing to read. Juxtaposition of these beautifully tender games with the toxicity they are forged in is just wild.

It seems like the company is built on the verbal abuse that is synonymous with online anonymity.

A lot of the collaborative work at my job is done online via asynchronous text and recorded call. No one would dare say anything like what is alleged in the article- everything is kept pertinent to the issues at hand.

Sounds like the two at the top would rather dig their heels in than admit they are just as bad as the slave-driving corporate entities that they sought to distance themselves from.

Edit:

The what-about-Activision comments are head scratching.

MS had no direct influence on Moon's culture as they didn't own them. All they could do is decide not to publish their works going forward.

Microsoft, as owner of Activision, will be responsible for fostering a healthy culture going forward. Which could and should mean the removal of toxic individuals and the implementation of controls that allow for a healthier workplace.

Two completely different scenarios.
 
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Buff Beefbroth

Buff Beefbroth

Chicken Chaser
Member
Apr 12, 2018
3,028
The disparity between the overall themes and messages expressed in the Ori games and the apparent quality of character in Moon's leadership sure is something.
 
Tigerfish419

Tigerfish419

Member
Oct 28, 2021
4,543
wwm0nkey said:
Can we seriously either get temp bans or something for the consolewaring/whataboutism/derailing. This thread was not a good place for it and always seems to just fly by.
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its beyond ridiculous at this point I am not sure how nothing is being done :/ this should be about the people who are doing shitty things but it's turned into shitty console war bullshit.

arsene_P5 said:
You want 20000 employees getting fired? The whataboutism is unbearable.
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Right how dumb is that let's ruin the lives EVEN more of these poor people because a batch of pricks are toxic, that makes the situation even worse.
 
Porcine prophet

Porcine prophet

Member
Mar 6, 2021
3,779
Saint Louis
GamerForever said:
So what if there is explanations, my opinion havent changed. Morally no company should touch Activision, rather pressure Activison too get their shit right.
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businesses dont have morals. Business always comes first and it was a good business decision to buy ABK. It was not a good decision to buy moon. Especially when moon has only like 8 actual employees and churn rate of near 100% when it comes to employees outside that 8.

Also, ABK isnt related to moon in general. At the end of the day, Moon treated their devs like shit (either in mass or little by little) and then treated Xbox like shit (though we dont know how exactly but it seems like it was in a similar vain). Thats the story, thats the discussion. Nothing else

Angie said:
So this toxic environment was widely known by journalists but they chose not to report on it in the past?
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Not sure where you got that from. Based on everything we know, this is a pretty new development. All because Jezz and Grubb heard similar things, does not mean they had enough to act on it.
 
staff post - don't use this topic to console war
  • Index
    • B-Dubs

    B-Dubs

    That's some catch, that catch-22
    General Manager
    Oct 25, 2017
    32,886
    Official Staff Communication
    So, the fact that I need to come in here and say this is appalling.

    IF YOU USE THIS THREAD AS AN EXCUSE TO PLATFORM WAR YOU WILL BE GETTING A HUGE BAN. DO NOT USE SERIOUS ISSUES TO ENGAGE IN YOUR PETTY CONSOLE BATTLES.

    I already banned one guy for it, and will be going through the rest of the thread, expect the same if you do it.
     
  • Index
    • Outrun

    Outrun

    Member
    Oct 30, 2017
    5,783
    I never knew of these issues at Moon Studios.

    I wish this mistreatment would just stop.

    I don't mind waiting an extra year or two to get a game, if it will relieve the pressure on the workers.
     
    Kyuuji

    Kyuuji

    The Favonius Fox
    Member
    Nov 8, 2017
    32,464
    Outrun said:
    I never knew of these issues at Moon Studios.

    I wish this mistreatment would just stop.

    I don't mind waiting an extra year or two to get a game, if it will relieve the pressure on the workers.
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    It's hellish to think of crunch even on its own, let alone when it's mixed with someone who's nasty, controlling, abusive and harassing. It's a testament to the strength of the developers that we get quality products at the end of it, but it's no excuse or justification for the mental and physical toll that that comes at the expense of.
     
    arsene_P5

    arsene_P5

    Prophet of Regret
    Member
    Apr 17, 2020
    15,438
    Outrun said:
    I wish this mistreatment would just stop.
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    Fully agree and I hope more and more people in this industry speak out and do something about it. This is such a great hobby to have and games are about bringing joy one way or the other. I wish this was the same experience more developers would be getting during the development, if that makes sense.

    I wish moon studios would be able to solve the issues so the employees can work in a better environment. It's disappointed and sad to hear another developer has a toxic environment.
     
    Greent4

    Greent4

    Prophet of Truth
    Member
    Oct 27, 2017
    1,275
    Charlotte, NC
    One developer said, "Thomas was always the one communicating with the publisher."

    "There was always this fear that if Microsoft woke up, maybe they would cancel the game," said one worker. "But then there was always this confidence on the part of Thomas that they would never do it because Ori is the best game that they had shipped in a decade. They felt untouchable because they made quality games."

    So Microsoft for the most part only communicated with the founders. Hard for them to know about the atmosphere of the studio if the boss is saying everything is fine.
    What a terrible situation, I feel for the devs.
    Even worse that they felt untouchable because they shipped a great game.
     
    Messofanego

    Messofanego

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    26,299
    UK
    Kyuuji said:
    It's hellish to think of crunch even on its own, let alone when it's mixed with someone who's nasty, controlling, abusive and harassing. It's a testament to the strength of the developers that we get quality products at the end of it, but it's no excuse or justification for the mental and physical toll that that comes at the expense of.
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    And even then, there were issues at launch with the sequel, so maybe some of that abuse slipped into the final release because the founders were wasting everyone else's time with their shouting matches. With how often this happens, like that other thread argued, it's a miracle videogames come out at all, let alone issues-free and with the developers not jumping ship immediately.
     
    Messofanego

    Messofanego

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    26,299
    UK
    Greent4 said:
    One developer said, "Thomas was always the one communicating with the publisher."

    "There was always this fear that if Microsoft woke up, maybe they would cancel the game," said one worker. "But then there was always this confidence on the part of Thomas that they would never do it because Ori is the best game that they had shipped in a decade. They felt untouchable because they made quality games."

    So Microsoft for the most part only communicated with the founders. Hard for them to know about the atmosphere of the studio if the boss is saying everything is fine.
    What a terrible situation, I feel for the devs.
    Even worse that they felt untouchable because they shipped a great game.
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    Same thing Annapurna Interactive did with the founders of Mountains, Fulbright, and Funomena, they went to the abusers first. Even after 16-page documents about behaviour were sent to them, they didn't support the abused developers until they went public. These publishers need to go deeper than the abusers.
     
    wwm0nkey

    wwm0nkey

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    15,602
    Still insane to me they were dumb enough to bite the hand that feeds, would be cool if MS could reach out to former devs (since most of them left) so they can do something with the Ori IP under a new studio or something
     
    Porcine prophet

    Porcine prophet

    Member
    Mar 6, 2021
    3,779
    Saint Louis
    Angie said:
    I missread.
    From this tweet I assumed that he spoke before on a podcast that MS wodun't work with them again, and he knew the reason why.
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    them getting whiffs why isnt enough to make a full story. Multiple interviews and cooberation are needed. Something that prob wasn't fully done until now. I get your overall point, but its rarely cause people just ignored making a story on it
     
    inpHilltr8r

    inpHilltr8r

    Member
    Oct 27, 2017
    3,265
    Imagine what being a tiny developer with a huge hit, and the marketing machine of a trillion dollar corporation at your back, must do to your ego. I suspect it would be the easiest thing to become a monster.
     

    animalcrossed

    Member
    Oct 28, 2017
    233
    giant_frying_pan said:
    Didn't a senior developer at Moon talk a lot of smack in the general direction of Team Cherry (Hollow Knight) in the run-up to Ori 2's release, or am I imagining that?
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    Yeah they definitely were at least inspired by some parts of Hollow Knight in Ori 2 and instead of just admitting it (or just not commenting) Mahler trash talked Hollow Knight.

     
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