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SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,328
São Paulo - Brazil
Oh, the surprise... AC is one of the worst series in terms of female representation I can think of. There has been I don't know how many main games and no one had a single female only lead. We had one secundary game with Aveline and that's it.

Also reminds me of this:

Doak encountered more resistance to diversity with TimeSplitters than he had at Rare. TimeSplitters was published by Eidos Interactive, which had previously published the hugely successful Tomb Raider. Yet Tomb Raider was an action-adventure game, and a shooter was viewed as a different beast. While Eidos U.K. was accommodating, Eidos U.S. required some cajoling. "It was, 'Oh, we can't sell a shooter if it doesn't have a guy on the box,'" Doak says. "That was the reflexive answer you got to stuff stateside." The sequels to TimeSplitters featured one campaign character, male space marine Sergeant Cortez, although TimeSplitters 2 allowed players to control Cortez's female sidekick Corporal Hart in co-op mode.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,618
of course those games have sold incredibly well. My point is that sadly they probably would have sold MORE if they had a male protagonist.

Again, why do you think cyberpunk has the most generic boring box art? A male with a gun. Because that sells. A female on the box cover will not sell as well. It sucks, I don't agree with it and I don't understand it but it's the truth.
Can you prove that?
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
I think the situation sucks. More female only leads are brilliant and more developers and publishers should be doing it.

Hell, I want more gay and transgender only characters.

My point is that not everyone thinks like that.

Yes, but this needs to change because "thinks like that" as of right now within Ubisoft means "thinks like" a misogynistic sexual predator and/or racist and/or bigoted. Thus decisions made by these people are tainted and there is a system that punishes others (not in the same position of power) who refuse or challenges the desires of these people.

It is frustrating when progressive people express their desire for change and then some of conclude by giving the status quo leeway because it is the only system that provides them with their piece of entertainment. These abusers are like sharks and they have constructed a system around them to act like a shield against consequences of their actions. People (at least here) should hold them accountable and give them no quarter for they deserve none.
 

amnesties

Member
Nov 17, 2017
835
putting Alexios on the cover when Kassandra was clearly the main character is an unforgivable offence
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
of course those games have sold incredibly well. My point is that sadly they probably would have sold MORE if they had a male protagonist.

Again, why do you think cyberpunk has the most generic boring box art? A male with a gun. Because that sells. A female on the box cover will not sell as well. It sucks, I don't agree with it and I don't understand it but it's the truth.
Would they sell more because they had a male protagonist or would they sell more because even with a multi million dollar marketing budget they'd get more marketing if there was a male lead? And yea RPGs tend to market with the lead with at best giving us a reversible cover. If anything, that time ME3 had two different CG trailers should've set a standard long ago but by my knowledge it's the only example where the two were truly treated equally in marketing.
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,184
User Banned (3 Days): Antagonizing Fellow Member and Concern Trolling
Would they sell more because they had a male protagonist or would they sell more because even with a multi million dollar marketing budget they'd get more marketing if there was a male lead? And yea RPGs tend to market with the lead with at best giving us a reversible cover. If anything, that time ME3 had two different CG trailers should've set a standard long ago but by my knowledge it's the only example where the two were truly treated equally in marketing.
Just gonna ask again if you're going to respond to the allegations being made and condemn them? Or are you going to continue avoiding criticism of the company, it's policies and it's staff?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
Would they sell more because they had a male protagonist or would they sell more because even with a multi million dollar marketing budget they'd get more marketing if there was a male lead? And yea RPGs tend to market with the lead with at best giving us a reversible cover. If anything, that time ME3 had two different CG trailers should've set a standard long ago but by my knowledge it's the only example where the two were truly treated equally in marketing.
I don't even think ME3 was even in its marketing, I still feel like male protag featured much more than female sheep but it was a long time ago. Dragon Age Inquisition I think actually did in that they kept switching the gender and type of the Inquisitor in the ads and also made a much more neutral design and that got GotY and was BioWare's biggest selling game so 🤷‍♀️
 

Deleted member 50232

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,509

No I can't, but publishers like cd project do huge amounts of marketing research into this. Again, why have they put a male on the cover when you can play as both?

Microsoft said the same with fable2. They wouldn't let lionhead put a female on the cover as it wouldn't sell as much. Granted that was ten years ago and you would have hoped the situation is a lot better in the industry.

70% of AC players played as the male lead not the female.
 

Parker Petrov

Member
Nov 1, 2017
452
Everyone i know who played odyssey used Kassandra as the default. She had a better vocal performance in my opinion.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
In addition to what others are saying, saying male leads "sell better" doesn't account for the multiple of women who don't play, say, shooting games because they feel it's a guy genre. My sister never played shooters and had no interest until I introduced her to Mass Effect, which as we all know has awesome FemShep, and then she went on to play games like Battlefield and Overwatch.

The notion that male leads sell inherently more is based on the notion that the vast majority of gamers are men. to the extent this is true (it's not) it's because women aren't included in the marketing push to begin with and the culture feels exclusionary.

No I can't, but publishers like cd project do huge amounts of marketing research into this. Again, why have they put a male on the cover when you can play as both?

Do they do huge amounts of market research? If so, what populations are they selecting and how are they selecting them? What questions are they asking in their research? Have we seen their written conclusions from the data? We should be way past simply giving companies the benefit of the doubt here.
 

Ant Fort

Member
Mar 22, 2018
99
Perfect Dark , Metroid , Tomb Raider , etc . Come on guys , there are more female lead games than just Horizon and Last of Us 2
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,162
i wonder if this is what might have pushed beyond good & evil 2 in its current direction. i trust michel ancel, but the game doesn't look like its 2009 self and the big open world (space) with this watch dogs multiplayer thing feels like it probably wasn't some organic creative decision made by a guy whose work is usually focused around single-player games.
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,210
This is like sneaker execs saying "shrink it and pink it" to women's shoes instead of understanding anything in regards to the market.

It was obvious from the development team (as they stated over and over) that Kassandra was the lead for Odyssey.
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,109
Wait until they hear about this major AAA game that has a lesbian front & center that went number one on the sales charts.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
I don't even think ME3 was even in its marketing, I still feel like male protag featured much more than female sheep but it was a long time ago. Dragon Age Inquisition I think actually did in that they kept switching the gender and type of the Inquisitor in the ads and also made a much more neutral design and that got GotY and was BioWare's biggest selling game so 🤷‍♀️
DA:I also happens to have a really good gender neutral cover. Bioware in general was really good about making it known that it's not just male shep's story.
 

Jmdajr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,534
Perfect Dark , Metroid , Tomb Raider , etc . Come on guys , there are more female lead games than just Horizon and Last of Us 2
How did the last Nier sell? Or Bayonetta?
Granted we are not talking Call of Duty numbers here, but there are plenty of examples of games with female leads that are successful.

Personally I think it's totally irrelevant.
Is the game good or not? That's all I care about as I am sure most do as well.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,786
The list of games where I can play as a gay or bisexual man isn't a long one, so I'm grateful for Alexios. Personally I like the current format of giving everyone an option, but overall the series has obviously been terrible with its handling of female representation so I can't say I'm surprised by this. The idea that a woman can't stand on her own is ridiculous and it's a shame that the only time they've attempted it was in a vita spinoff.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,618
No I can't, but publishers like cd project do huge amounts of marketing research into this. Again, why have they put a male on the cover when you can play as both?
I'd like to see that research tbh. There's plenty of companies where the old boys club' word is law and they make suggestions over the heads of departments.

And even if this were true, IMO, it's not something to blame people on, even misogynists. The best way to fail at something is to not even try. And the best way to get better at something is to suck at it for a bit.

The case where these things "don't sell" is on the marketing department then, not the audience.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
DA:I also happens to have a really good gender neutral cover. Bioware in general was really good about making it known that it's not just male shep's story.
Eh, I wouldn't go that far that they were good at it, they did more than their peers at the time but honestly for the longest time I thought Mass Effect was a dude bro shooter and didn't know there was a female protag until I saw women mention how much they love femShep. Their marketing has got better but I still think it could improve, especially for Mass Effect, as while they did do a more gender neutral character on the cover and featured Sara Ryder more I still think the big trailer were Male. Anthem though defo has more female protag showing up though.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,567
That's not really a valid statement though. How many of those people that played Alexios would've refused to buy the game had Kassandra been the only playable character? I certainly wouldn't have and I picked Alexios for my initial playthrough.

I played as Alexios because I think he is hot but even with Kassandra as a only choice, I would still have gotten the game. Would probably do a playthrough of Kassandra eventually.
 
Apr 27, 2020
2,990
The only time I can remember Ubisoft promoting Kassandra was during the Gameplay walkthrough after the E3 reveal which was completely Alexios centric and the Gamescom trailer. All the rest promoted Alexios
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,622
Yeah sounds about right. I played the first hour as both characters to see which I preferred and holy shit was the male VA bland as fuck compared to kassandra. It was night and day. You could tell he was shoe horned in and she was meant to be the lead. Should have nixed his part and put in more variety instead!
 

CelticKennedy

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 18, 2019
1,886
There was a male option in ACO?




Why?

tumblr_pi1rax3vK91r9gzfco1_640.gif
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,380
Eh, I wouldn't go that far that they were good at it, they did more than their peers at the time but honestly for the longest time I thought Mass Effect was a dude bro shooter and didn't know there was a female protag until I saw women mention how much they love femShep. Their marketing has got better but I still think it could improve, especially for Mass Effect, as while they did do a more gender neutral character on the cover and featured Sara Ryder more I still think the big trailer were Male. Anthem though defo has more female protag showing up though.
By good I meant better than their peers.
 

SPEA

Member
Oct 29, 2017
404
Kassandra was awesome. Loved playing as her. And her voice performance was infinitely better than Alexios'. Last of Us and Tomb Raider sales should show that the whole 'women protagonist games don't sell' is complete misogynistic bullshit.

By the way, if you watched the new Eurovision movie on Netflix, she's the Greek character in the movie. I recognized her voice as I was watching it.
 

SmartWaffles

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,246
Eh, I wouldn't go that far that they were good at it, they did more than their peers at the time but honestly for the longest time I thought Mass Effect was a dude bro shooter and didn't know there was a female protag until I saw women mention how much they love femShep. Their marketing has got better but I still think it could improve, especially for Mass Effect, as while they did do a more gender neutral character on the cover and featured Sara Ryder more I still think the big trailer were Male. Anthem though defo has more female protag showing up though.
For Mass Effect 3 they did marketing specifically for FemShep and the limited edition cover uses FemShep.
 

Deleted member 50232

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,509
I'd like to see that research tbh. There's plenty of companies where the old boys club' word is law and they make suggestions over the heads of departments.

And even if this were true, IMO, it's not something to blame people on, even misogynists. The best way to fail at something is to not even try. And the best way to get better at something is to suck at it for a bit.

The case where these things "don't sell" is on the marketing department then, not the audience.

Agreed. Do you know what I would love? For rockstar to have the next GTA lead be a gay character. How brilliant would that be at shaking things up?

Can I see them doing it? No but you can always hope.
 

That1GoodHunter

My ass legally belongs to Ted Price
Member
Oct 17, 2019
10,863
Spineless pieces of shit

It's VERY obvious that Kas was meant to be the only protagonist...
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
For Mass Effect 3 they did marketing specifically for FemShep and the limited edition cover uses FemShep.
FemShep finally got some marketing for ME3, she did not get equal amounts, which I mentioned earlier in the thread. Also for the first two games if you looked at the marketing you wouldn't even know she really existed as an option.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,328
Interesting.
I played through AC:Odyssey as Kassandra and, while she is a fantastic character, there were a number of times when it felt like the story was designed around a male protagonist. Like, did Sparta ever have women as warriors? It feels kinda odd that Kassandra gets trained as one and literally nothing is ever mentioned of this in a society with an incredibly rigid structure (as far as we know).
you compete in the Olympics, in a fighting tournament, entirely against men, without anyone batting an eyelid. The game even mentions how women were not even allowed to be spectators, hinting at the sexism of the time.
And just in general going through the game as a total badass and not one person drops an "as a woman!" line.......... which really I'm grateful for as its the sort of eye-rolling dialogue I can do without, but you'd think someone would say it somewhere in sexist ol' Ancient Greece.

To be clear, I'm not one of those assholes demanding historical accuracy in my videogame where I also own a horse that can appear out of nowhere and never die. AC:O is a fun time in a semi-alternate history, and Kassandra is a great character. I'm just genuinely surprised she was the primary character they had in mind for the story.
Yeah, it's a bit surprising because that spoilered storybeat feels like it was written with a male character in mind.

there's even a sidequest about a mother who isn't allowed to watch her son participate in the games. That makes no sense when Kassandra just participated herself

tailoring the story to her would have avoided those inconsistencies.
 

Dozer

Member
May 30, 2019
889
Orlando, FL
To play devil's advocate from a different angle, isn't Alexios effectively the most prominent gay/bisexual AAA videogame protagonist ever? Obviously that's up to the player but there is no restrictions from the game about any relationships the player chooses to have and some of the, uhm, "side quests" are actually pretty romantic and not just "you saved my life let's bang".

Obviously not defending the decision the interfere with creative decisions but I think it ended up being a net positive.
 
Last edited:

Karthane

Member
Mar 20, 2018
483
I have zero issue playing as a woman but in an RPG with choice/conversations I usually pick the male option. I played as Alexios but I really enjoyed how the sibling you did not pick ended up being the villain
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,023
It's hard to imagine Ubisoft ever truly gets better when the top is so rotten. Best they can do is mask the smell.

Why not? I preferred it but was happy there was a choice for others to play with a female character. Not that I particularly felt strongly about it but choice is never a bad thing.
Yes it is. Could you imagine Red Dead Redemption 2, The Last of Us, or even previous AC games like 2 without their defined male characters? Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love more games to have a female option, especially those with blank slates for protagonists, but women deserve more stories solely focused on them, like Horizon and The Last of Us 2.
 

vastick

Banned
May 4, 2019
132
It was the right choice even if they are wrong about it not selling as most people played as Alexios. Having options will always be better than having no options.
 

methane47

Member
Oct 28, 2017
879
Can you guys help me out here, I played as Alexios,
Everyone here says ohh Kass is great and shes amazing yada yada... but i looked at a youtube video or two, and Alexios and Kassandra seem to have basically exactly the same lines... the only difference is the skin and the voice..

So what is it about Kass that made her so great vs Alexios? Why do people hate on Alexios so much?
 

AllChan7

Tries to be a positive role model
Member
Apr 30, 2019
3,670
Same. Just canceled my uPlay+.

The misogynistic culture at that company is disgusting. The abuse is fucking horrid and worse on every lvl. But the whole thing about them calling John Boyega a monkey? Yea, those fuckers can burn in hell.

I really do feel bad for all the devs who are just trying to do their job and I feel even worse for the women at the company who likely need the job. They deserve better the putrid shit Ubisoft has encouraged
 

NeoPancho

Member
Nov 3, 2017
219
I would guess that at Ubisoft they have more than enough data to make educated guesses. As expensive as a AC game must be if they decided that just a female main character was too risky (and by too risky i mean maybe a 20% drop in sales) it must be based in some hard numbers and no a personal decision... of course all that data might be proven wrong and don't affect sales at all or maybe even pay off the risk and increase notably the sales, but i can understand that they decided to play it safe and give both options.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
This is the same AC game that had that controversy where the main game allowed you to choose their sexuality and then the dlc forced you into a straight or relationship something right?

Anyway, this old "wisdom" of games with women as protagonists not selling has been proven blatantly untrue for a while now. Given the other issues at ubisoft this kind of thinking isn't surprising of course, how could anyone think this way of thinking isn't directly connected to the toxic sexist culture at ubisoft?
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
I would guess that at Ubisoft they have more than enough data to make educated guesses. As expensive as a AC game must be if they decided that just a female main character was too risky (and by too risky i mean maybe a 20% drop in sales) it must be based in some hard numbers and no a personal decision... of course all that data might be proven wrong and don't affect sales at all or maybe even pay off the risk and increase notably the sales, but i can understand that they decided to play it safe and give both options.

Yea, I doubt that very much. When it comes to the "it doesn't sell" argument, there's no actual data, just racists and sexists trying to justify their behavior.

We just saw this not only with games where minoritiy leads present no problems, but with movies as well, with several doing gangbusters.