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Jason Schreier/Bloomberg: Blizzard Workers Share Salaries in Revolt Over Wage Disparities
- Thread starter Kawngi
- Start date
We addressing game dev as per your comment - and therefore game dev (software engineering salaries), which is what I've provided data for.
There may be discrepancies in salaries for other occupations if someone wants to take a stab at the data.
I've already demonstrated that their game dev salaries are inline with prevailing wages and the claim that Riot Games pays "double" is inaccurate.
I'd just like to verify the accuracy of the claims before making a judgement. We don't want to fall victim to #FakeNews, do we now?
Salary comparisons for software engineers might not be apples to apples if considering (i) the value of stock-based comp (often a huge part of start-up salary packages); and/or (ii) the number of hours actually worked. Every anecdote from I've heard from AAA studio developers makes Amazon's work hours sound like a 9-5. Beyond that, it's often folks in non-software engineering positions (QA, community, etc.) who are economically exploited the most.To answer, your question - let's base it off the data available to us ..
Did a quick n dirty breakout for some of the Software Engineer salaries from Blizzard according to that spreadsheet:
Senior Software Engineer I
Avg. Salary: $142,931
Std dev. $12,874
Senior Software Engineer II
Avg. Salary: $166,562
Std dev. $13,136
Software Engineer
Avg. Salary: $112,294
Std dev. $9,475
Industry benchmarks:
Senior Software Engineer:
$77-140k (Glassdoor, LA area)
$97k-160k (PayScale, LA Area)
Software Engineer:
$64-120k (Glassdoor, LA area)
$65k-130k (PayScale, LA Area)
I didn't include ones that weren't specific and converted hourly into annual @ 2080 hours/yr.
Looks like fairly standard salaries to me for their software engineers, tending towards to the upper end if you compare them to the industry benchmarks.
Now, if anyone else wants to have a go at the rest of the occupations - we can see how credible these claims are.
EDIT:
And this is where, I say "bullsh!t"
1,342 Salaries at Riot Games Shared by Employees
A free inside look at Riot Games salary trends based on 1342 salaries wages for 520 jobs at Riot Games. Salaries posted anonymously by Riot Games employees.www.glassdoor.com
For Riot Games:
Senior Software Engineer (37 salaries): $179,774
Software Engineer (80 salaries): $130,279
Yes, avg. salary is higher - but it's not "double" by any means.
Given the data we have now, neither Riot nor Blizzard sets contain any information for stock-based comp. - so we'll just have to go off what we have.
If we use Riot games as the benchmark:
Software Engineers at Riot make 16% more, while Senior Engineers can make between 8-25% more (Based off simple avg. between SE I & II)
Riot is also a smaller company with 2500 employees as compared to Blizzard at 4700. Maybe Riot is farming Blizzard for their top talent (that's what I'd do!).
Also, a lot depends on employee contracts. Are they fully exempt or do they have clauses for overtime? Most exempt employees do not have overtime.
Again, if someone wants to do an analysis for non-engineering positions, that'd probably bring a lot more clarity to the debate.
Just to be crystal clear, at no point was I simply talking about software dev salaries. I have always been referring to all devs at Blizzard who feel underpaid.
Again, as per the article, there are devs there who can afford lunch.
It's in an article written by Jason Schrier and published by Bloomberg. It's a serious piece of journalism in a respectable publication. This isn't just some internet rumour. There are absolutely people who have worked at Blizzard who have spoken to him and said they use the free coffee as an appetite suppressant and / or can't afford to eat at the company canteen
The article isn't just talking about Devs. The chart itself contains a variety of positions within Blizzard. Unless you are using the term dev to include anyone working at Blizzard.
Right, but that would still be a shift with governance/regulation, and that wouldn't change my point that they make a poor replacement for wages because wages, unlike future vesting stock, provides immediate liquidity.
Which doesn't necessarily mean it can't or shouldn't happen, I'm saying that it's not really some interchangeable or even practical process to take the RSUs given to Kotick and say "here, now everyone can have them!".
Agreed except that's not what happens. The compensation that presently goes to the CEO more likely than not won't be redistributed but rather payed out to shareholders or goes into the company warchest.
I feel that the distinctions are overly pedantic, but maybe workers would be a better term? In any case, this is about workers at Blizzard who are clearly experiencing hardship while at one of the most successful games companies in the world. I think we can all agree that's wrong.
There maaaybe a discrepancy? maybe if you stop looking at senior software engineers and take a more grounded approach. senior software engineers make up a small portion of gamedevelopers. it takes a whole much more to make a game than software engineers.
If you would have actually taken an honest look at trying to verify the accuracy of the article, you would have taken much better data as your argument.
To clarify, Blizzard employs developers - but not all its employees are devs.
For example, someone in QA / marketing / Product Management is not a dev, even tho they are a Blizzard employee.
I'm at the point I don't think I can believe this without hard numbers. I heard the same thing about Ubisoft for years now... we all saw how that place was really run.
Artists are devs, Level designers are devs game designers are devs, QA are devs, audio departments are devs, animators are devs. the fuck are you talking about.
Rest assured that any time a CEO's salary or compensation is called into question, there will be no shortage of temporarily embarrassed millionaires lining up to justify the pay because they know that one day they too will pull themselves up by their bootstraps and run a billion dollar empire.
"Why are you complaining when you could auction off that swag and sell the keys for food?"
I wish I had a more accurate reading on EA, but even online sources like Glassdoor which we often use to have an insight into salaries at other companies have people inflate salaries posted there, where as soon as you apply and get as far to talk numbers its often much lower and you notice most of it is BS.
This applies to QA across the board and not just to western companies. Japanese companies, in fact, pay just as poorly and even worse in Japan (which surprised me when I first learned about that some years ago), but of course a better social safety net in Japan helps there.
The thing about testers is that the basic, entry-level job is "unskilled" (not in the sense that it takes no skill to do it but in the sense that there are few/no prerequisite job requirements) and seen by many as the easiest entry point to the industry--which it is, but what they don't tell you is that you will hit another wall trying to get out of QA, and this one is much harder to pass. As such, the there is always a glut of enthusiastic and overqualified candidates in the labor pool, which is going to bottom out wages.
But yeah, that being the case, you can name any game company, and more than likely their testers will be equally shittily paid as any tester at any other company.
By "learned about" do you mean "heard about" or "worked with"
Our QA expenses aren't cheap
I worked in QA for many years--mostly at/with Japanese companies, and I knew the rates we paid our testers at each location. My clients were also mostly Japanese companies, including the ones people know and laud here, and I also knew their costs.
I see.
Yeah, unfortunately QA (and loc) are often lowest bidder deals at the mercy of alright cheap producers but thankfully after realizing you get what you pay for and that having to eventually schedule extra work anyway cancels out the money they thought they were saving, I've had better luck convincing people to pony up
Wow, much hostility ...
At least I'm taking a look at the data. I looked at the dev data and found it be to at par. Now if you want to expand out the data set to include the ones that you mentioned - please go ahead and let us know of what you found :)
Also, I never mentioned the ones you included in my exclusion - but, whatever.
Now, do we have volunteers who'll start digging into the data for non-devs and/or devs as per the extended definition and telling us the results?
You're free to take the article at face value. I'd rather validate to the best of my abilities before passing judgement.
Some of the confusion here might be "game developer" vs "developer" at a company that makes non-game-related software. I work at a software company, and "developer" here basically only means people who write application code. I can certainly see why "developer" at a game company would include a variety of roles though.
Its highly frustrating as a developer to read backseat researchers with the power of google and a free 5 minutes to try and "validate" data that has been a problem in the industry forever and is especially a problem in cities with insane costs of living. It is especially frustrating when we are in your eyes not even a developer. how about you first establish the ground rules, and research into what developers actually are and what kind of jobs it consists off before you dig into trying to "validate" reports. the only thing you doing is taking a very narrow look into an industry and base everything on that. is that how you do all your research?
I apologize if my frustration is a little transparent, I just want you to do a better job at what you are trying to do in threads like these
maybe I expect too much of a person who works in a field that pays well north of 6 figures.
It makes me sad to hear this, especially since I know a lot of people at Blizzard that are very passionate about what they do.
There can be no separation because they are the same company since Vivendi merged them in 2008.
I'm not getting paid for this :)
However, in the interest of the audience here - some more stats:
Data Source: Glassdoor, Los Angeles Area
Glassdoor aggregated data was used when game industry specific data was not available
3D Artist
Blizzard: $79,333
Playstation: $85 - 96k
Riot : $56 - 61k
Insomniac $77 - 89k
Result: Blizzard's wages are competitive.
Senior Artist (inc. game, concept, FX, etc.)
Blizzard: $117,197
EA: $107,000
Rockstar: $99,614
Crystal Dynamics: $118,187
Sony Online Ent: $102,988
Result: Blizzard's wages are competitive / high end.
VFX Artist (Small sample set)
Blizzard: $83,000
Riot: $87,926
Result: Blizzard's wages lags behind Riot, need more data
Senior Test Analyst
Blizzard: $61,481
Glassdoor: $63,356
Result: Blizzard lags behind industry average, need game industry specific data
Test Analyst
Blizzard: $51,464
Glassdoor: $71,417
Result: Blizzard severely lags behind industry average, need game industry specific data
Senior (Game) Designer
Blizzard: $125,743
Riot: $140,328
EA: $109,722
Naughty Dog: $110,456
Red 5: $102,842
Result: Blizzard's wages are competitive / high end.
Game Designer
Blizzard: $86,687
Naughty Dog: $94,024
Red 5: $68,720
Riot: $104,070
Treyarch: $80,026
Result: Blizzard's wages are competitive / low end
Customer Service
Blizzard: $41,426
Glassdoor: $36,019
Result: Blizzard's wages are competitive
Alright then ... other than Test Analysts, I'd say that for the above listed occupations, Blizzard offers competitive wages.
My take: Blizzard is focussed more on retaining top (senior) talent and is content to churn thru lower positions. While Riot does offer higher wages, it ABSOLUTELY NO WHERE CLOSE TO DOUBLE.
And to add - when doing valuation and analysis for cost centers, dev costs are assigned to well ... dev or engineering cost centers. Artists, designers, etc. are not. The industry doesn't count you as devs - that take as you will. I could talk for a while why it is so ... but then ...
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I feel like there's a lot of miscommunication in this thread surrounding the word dev. Dev needs to be qualified. Some in here are using it to mean software developer, others game developer.
They likely do, and then a new batch of people experience the exact same problem and then it keeps going. Better to actually resolve the issue than to keep the revolving door going.
Knowing what I know, Amazon entry level SDEs are making quite a bit more than experienced SDEs without even taking into account RSUs at Blizzard which is crazy considering how big they are.
Well, that's up to Blizzard, isn't it?
If they are fine with a bigger than normal turn over in personnel because their wages are lower than the market average, that's alright. It's their business plan, and I'm sure they weighted the ups and downs of it, and still considered it being worth it.
I get that this is one of the biggest publishers in the world, that the CEO makes tens of millions, but my point stands: no one is being forced to work at Blizzard.
For the people working there/planning to work there, it's all about choices they make. If you're unsatisfied with your salary, you change jobs. If you think a job doesn't play enough, don't apply for it.
So ultimately, just ignore the issue and if you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Great 2020 mindset.
Like imagine reading that and going "well just don't work there problem solved".
Sure, for that person that already has a better paying job, that's simple. For someone getting in the industry ...
There are currently many things in the world to be completely outraged about, but I honestly feel like this isn't one of them.
I stand by what I said, nobody is being forced to work there. It's their choice.
You talk about 2020 mindset. Complaining about not being paid what you believe is not what you're worth ON TWITTER, for me, its what really is the epitome of the 2020 mindset.
People can recognize an issue without being "outraged". Criticism isn't outrage. 2020 is a perfectly good time to call out these sort of practices.
According to you there are better things to complain about now, yet you're here going at people who feel underpaid struggling to make a living because it's "their choice".
$12 an hour is absurd. I was making more than that slicing bologna at shoprite in high school. Had decent benefits too lol.
Why the hell are you on a game forum when you clearly don't care if the devs left the industry and left your stupid hobby with nothing to play.
I really hope the underpaid workers get their proper wages because of this. They really deserve so much more.
User Warned: Hostility over multiple posts
Says the clown whining about Sony Spider-Man exclusivity in other posts
So THAT is worth outrage because it impacts you
Game dev wages are NOT worth outrage because it doesn't impact you
got it
"Some producers and engineers at Blizzard can make well over $100,000 a year, but others, such as video game testers and customer-service representatives, are often paid minimum wage or close to it."
I don't think the devs are underpaid - rather QA, testers, etc. Question is - are they replaceable?
Personally, I think a good QA team is crazy valuable