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ColR100

Member
Jan 13, 2018
293
www.bloomberg.com

Blockbuster Video Games Mint Millions While Grunts Get Exploited

The gaming industry employs more than 220,000 people, many of them permatemps who don't share in the spoils.

the article seems to specifically be talking about temporary contract work within Activision

some interesting excerpts

BOTTOM LINE - Video game industry contractors frequently work full-time hours but are denied perks such as paid holidays, parties, and company swag offered to permanent staffers.


There's a real misunderstanding here from Schreier's analyse of this. The examples are not at all unique to the games industry, this is just how contracting widely works within the tech industry. Such things like paid holidays, parties, company swag...this is the reason why when accepting contractor roles you evaluate the cost of such full-time benefits and factor that into your day-rate to cover for it. It's like the 101 of contracting.

If the employee doesn't like their contract conditions, then they shouldn't accept the contract and should look elsewhere to work. If the contract length comes up for renewal after say six or twelve months, and you're not happy with the prior setup with regards to remuneration, then this is the time to revisit that and negotiate so it's acceptable.

Sitting there accepting an employers messaging that when a contract reaches its last month that one would then be moved onto a permanent full-time member of staff with the usual company benefits is a fools errand, and just shows naivety on the employees part.

The article kind of leads with a sensationalist title in some respect.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Been there, done that. He's absolutely right. Thankfully I was able to climb up the ladder into a very comfortable permanent position, but many others weren't so lucky. Temps, the vast majority of which are QA, are seen by productions like absolute trash-tier disposable lower class leeches, feeding off their success and not worthy of any sort of basic decency. They are often the people who work the longest hours and struggle to prove themselves worthy of something more, yet are treated with the worst conditions, no benefits, meager or no bonuses, no recognition, sometimes don't even get credited. Since they don't create anything that goes into the game, they are not part of the team. They're viewed as a mere service, like office cleaners or garbage men. Something that needs to be there but they wish was invisible. It's dirty.

Edit: Oh and in some countries, the law states that temp employees must be turned into permanent employees after a given amount of months. To avoid this, some companies have sister companies under a different name. To the law, they appear like they are different companies, but they are owned by the same people and sub-contracted by the main company. And so whenever a temp employee reaches the temp limit, he gets transferred to the sister company. When he reaches the temp limit there, he gets re-transferred back to the main company. That way, they can keep them on as temp employees essentially forever and deny them all the benefits of becoming permanent. Never underestimate just how low capitalism will go just to save a few bucks!

Fuck this makes my blood boil. This whole thing. What the fuck.
 

TheRulingRing

Banned
Apr 6, 2018
5,713
Well yeah, capitalism fucks over the people producing the goods so rich people get richer.

Wait till he finds out how many of the consoles we love are created by salve labour by an oppressed minority in China.

He knows.

Since when have any of these people cared that passionately about the far more dangerous and damaging exploitation of faceless poor people in Asia/Africa?
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
This is an industry that has no qualms about the use of Muslim slave labour and will proudly ignore you when you bring it up.

The whole thing's rotten.
 

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,232
A man is working one day and sees his boss drive up in a brand new car. He goes "Wow, nice car boss." His boss looks at his and says, "You really like this car huh?" The employee nods. The boss goes "well, I tell you what. If you work really hard and put your mind to it, I will be be able to buy an even nicer car next year."

I heard that joke years ago and it still rings true today.
 

jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,098
There's a real misunderstanding here from Schreier's analyse of this. The examples are not at all unique to the games industry, this is just how contracting widely works within the tech industry. Such things like paid holidays, parties, company swag...this is the reason why when accepting contractor roles you evaluate the cost of such full-time benefits and factor that into your day-rate to cover for it. It's like the 101 of contracting.

If the employee doesn't like their contract conditions, then they shouldn't accept the contract and should look elsewhere to work. If the contract length comes up for renewal after say six or twelve months, and you're not happy with the prior setup with regards to remuneration, then this is the time to revisit that and negotiate so it's acceptable.

Sitting there accepting an employers messaging that when a contract reaches its last month that one would then be moved onto a permanent full-time member of staff with the usual company benefits is a fools errand, and just shows naivety on the employees part.

The article kind of leads with a sensationalist title in some respect.
Without fail, there's always someone there to respond to labor investigations with "well if they don't like it, they should get a new job!" lmao it's the American way.

Is it the system that's broken? No... it's the workers who are wrong
 

Mr Eric

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,141
Edit: Oh and in some countries, the law states that temp employees must be turned into permanent employees after a given amount of months. To avoid this, some companies have sister companies under a different name. To the law, they appear like they are different companies, but they are owned by the same people and sub-contracted by the main company. And so whenever a temp employee reaches the temp limit, he gets transferred to the sister company. When he reaches the temp limit there, he gets re-transferred back to the main company. That way, they can keep them on as temp employees essentially forever and deny them all the benefits of becoming permanent. Never underestimate just how low capitalism will go just to save a few bucks!

Are you describing Ubisoft ? Heard this is the kind of thing they do...
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
18 months isn't a good idea at all, how is 18 months temporary its nearly 2 years, its ridiculous. 6 months should be the maximum and then they have to make you full time with all the benefits that entails.

They will just hire another team because it is cheaper. CA OT laws are a good example of this.


Without fail, there's always someone there to respond to labor investigations with "well if they don't like it, they should get a new job!" lmao it's the American way.

Is it the system that's broken? No... it's the workers who are wrong

I guess if you believe in free market capitalism that is a fair response. As an outsider, I cannot help but be astounded by the passion shown by developers and other employees in the industry to work for less than their market's worth. I might be completely off base but it feels like upper management are the only individuals who are extracting fmv for their labor.
 
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ColR100

Member
Jan 13, 2018
293
Without fail, there's always someone there to respond to labor investigations with "well if they don't like it, they should get a new job!" lmao it's the American way.

Is it the system that's broken? No... it's the workers who are wrong

I think I forgot to add, the system is broken, you're right, I'm in total agreement there. But it is what it is, and without changes in the law, aspects that you covered won't change unfortunately.

It should be more a take on how capitalism when unchecked, moves far too much towards benefiting the employer/company rather than the worker.

It's not something unique to the games industry though. Having worked within both the games industry and wider tech industry, I'm familiar with aspects you cover within your article.
 

viandante

Member
Apr 24, 2020
3,097
seems like many people here just wish jason hadn't written this article, or that it's only okay if it begins with a massive disclaimer listing all other industries that have shady labor practices. lol gamers
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Definitely seems like more and more big companies are relying on contractors to get out of treating their workers like employees even though they're doing the same work for the same amount of time. Hopefully we see legislation or unionization efforts bear fruit.

The bit about leaving names out of credits is incredibly ironic considering Activision was founded by people angry about similar treatment at Atari.
 

Castamere

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,517
Game development seems terribly inefficient at a AA and AAA level. Nobody knows what game they want to make, or someone higher than your creative team thinks you need something in it that you didn't plan on, or something creative wanted isn't possible with your talent or tech etc etc, so they just throw bodies at it and hope for the best.

Imagine building a house and you have 3 months, but halfway through you decide you want a second floor. That seems to be games almost every time. I think it's an inherent problem because of the time it takes to develop a game. Trends change drastically year by year.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Game development seems terribly inefficient at a AA and AAA level. Nobody knows what game they want to make, or someone higher than your creative team thinks you need something in it that you didn't plan on, or something creative wanted isn't possible with your talent or tech etc etc, so they just throw bodies at it and hope for the best.

Imagine building a house and you have 3 months, but halfway through you decide you want a second floor. That seems to be games almost every time. I think it's an inherent problem because of the time it takes to develop a game. Trends change drastically year by year.

Some of the more successful indie games suffer from this as well whether it is a one person team or a few friends sending years working on a game.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
People joke about how many people are on the credits of UbiSoft games, but now I can only imagine how long the list would be if every contractor had been included.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,079

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,411
There's a real misunderstanding here from Schreier's analyse of this. The examples are not at all unique to the games industry, this is just how contracting widely works within the tech industry. Such things like paid holidays, parties, company swag...this is the reason why when accepting contractor roles you evaluate the cost of such full-time benefits and factor that into your day-rate to cover for it. It's like the 101 of contracting.

If the employee doesn't like their contract conditions, then they shouldn't accept the contract and should look elsewhere to work. If the contract length comes up for renewal after say six or twelve months, and you're not happy with the prior setup with regards to remuneration, then this is the time to revisit that and negotiate so it's acceptable.

Sitting there accepting an employers messaging that when a contract reaches its last month that one would then be moved onto a permanent full-time member of staff with the usual company benefits is a fools errand, and just shows naivety on the employees part.

The article kind of leads with a sensationalist title in some respect.

As someone in the tech field, this has been my experience. Worked around 5 years as a contractor before a company even considered offering me a more "permanent" role. In fact, "getting permanent" was considered a pretty big deal to anyone I went to college with it was so rare.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,197
And yet they need to raise video games prices by $10.
While the top brass rake in millions.
And they don't pay their taxes.
And they exploit their underpaid staff.

I wish I had more than two middle fingers.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,668
Canada
It's so naive really. Having a policy of capping it at 18 months is a good idea.

My company just now has a policy where you can't take on a full time employee without board approval. Everyone is hired on a maximum of one year contract and you need to fight like fuck to make them permanent.
A cap for how long a temp worker can be a temp worker is fine.

Temp work is not fine, hire and pay them an appropriate wage.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,411
In my place they get paid more actually. Obviously not the case everywhere.

Usually the pay is higher because the lack of benefits and in my experience finance rarely does deductions or tax stuff for contractors so its all left up to them end of tax season to have set aside the appropriate amounts.
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,186
Reminds me of working conditions in academia a bit. Not good. Plus many studios are outsourcing to cheaper places.
 

DOA

Member
Oct 26, 2017
481
first of all... not surprising

second, i've already claimed to my friends that in terms of workplaces, this is pretty much like the industrial revolutions, where the real earners were the top brass, while the grunts got payed close to nothing. history repeats itself
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I think I forgot to add, the system is broken, you're right, I'm in total agreement there. But it is what it is, and without changes in the law, aspects that you covered won't change unfortunately.

But being covered is part of how they change.

No one is saying this is new info or that we don't already know this is capitalism at large at work, we are saying capitalism's status quo is not okay.
 

MindofKB

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,079
Bay Area
There's a real misunderstanding here from Schreier's analyse of this. The examples are not at all unique to the games industry, this is just how contracting widely works within the tech industry. Such things like paid holidays, parties, company swag...this is the reason why when accepting contractor roles you evaluate the cost of such full-time benefits and factor that into your day-rate to cover for it. It's like the 101 of contracting.

If the employee doesn't like their contract conditions, then they shouldn't accept the contract and should look elsewhere to work. If the contract length comes up for renewal after say six or twelve months, and you're not happy with the prior setup with regards to remuneration, then this is the time to revisit that and negotiate so it's acceptable.

Sitting there accepting an employers messaging that when a contract reaches its last month that one would then be moved onto a permanent full-time member of staff with the usual company benefits is a fools errand, and just shows naivety on the employees part.

The article kind of leads with a sensationalist title in some respect.

As someone who contracted at three different places in Silicon Valley and eventually converted to full-time at one of them, you hit the nail on the head here.

As a contractor, you do NOT work for Naughty Dog, for example. You work for a contracting company that has a deal with Naughty Dog to bring in help. People get it twisted and think they're an employee just because they get to walk in the building and have a desk near the employees. No, you don't get bonuses, parties, free shirts etc. You're just an extra body brought in to do more typing and clicking.

A lot of people looking for contract work don't understand that contracts are negotiable. Some may not offer you paid holidays or insurance, you can ask for that to be added. If the pay they're offering is too low, you can negotiate it to something higher. I did this at all three of my contracting gigs. They won't offer you any of this stuff or even let you know that it's available, you have to open your mouth. Most people don't do this because they're desperate for work at the time and are willing to take whatever is served up. Additionally, get everything in writing. Contracting companies will promise you conversion to full-time, bumps in pay, and extra benefits left and right just to get you to sign the contract. None of it matters if it's not in writing.
 

Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
Welcome to capitalism... I guess?! Unionizing is probably the only way for better conditions in this or any industry (under the current system), hopefully it becomes the norm.
 

Biggzy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
As a company owner, I see zero-hour contracts as evil - treating employees as fodder and nothing more. I also see it as short-termism - apart from in desperate situations like recession, you'll only attract employees who start low skilled and remain demotivated.

As a basic right, employees (humans!) should have contracted minimum hours and after a short period of proving that they're fit for work, minimum rights re: severance, holiday pay and just being treated as a valued part of the company.

However on the flipside, a small minority of employees really do make it hard work for everyone else - abusing sick pay policies, complaining but not contributing and so on. The issue as an employer here is that you have to be consistent otherwise you open yourself up to claims of unfair dismissal etc. So as much as you introduce flexible practices, some fucker always comes along and ruins it for everyone else. You want to have open policies, but you have to tighten them up in order to manage out those who really need to go, making it more restrictive for everyone else.

I'd like to point out none of the above justifies zero hour contracts and increasing use of short-term positions - it's just a small counter point to some of those who might think every company is evil and capitalism is inherently bad etc.

It's good that you have that point of view about zero hour contract etc because ultimately an employee who feels valued etc is more likely to be a productive employee, so both can win.

But the strength of capitalism is also its weekness - the pursuit of profit. It makes employers cut any unnecessary costs they view and cost of employees is one of them, hence zero hour contracts and self employed contractors becoming more common. It is something that politicians and us as society needs to avoid and there is already some push back from the courts around the world on what constitues full-time employees etc.
 

JakeNoseIt

Catch My Drift
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
4,536
incredibly weird take to argue that Jason shouldn't be highlighting the games industry and should instead be indicted capitalism as a concept. Shows a weird insistence from people to protect the image of the industry simply because they like the product and represents a misunderstanding of how stories are pitched and produce/how journalism works
 

scottbeowulf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,381
United States
Agreed
oTiqsPLNZSTu8fobXkkMdF3J8DXzcwBm27hVQvR-8DmU7y3qETCsnHNIP-vmrRuEkZYjHxPv65PwN7uAShSrQ3WZW7_KGgNK4MSvpqmmZB8UxGufREEPB1ufRba0rA
 

Khamsinvera

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,580
Focusing on Microsoft here ...

A pretty decent write-up of pros and cons of working as a contractor at Microsoft:
www.linkedin.com

What I learned from 6 years of contract work at Microsoft

When I accepted a contract role at MSN.com in 2011 I didn’t really know what to expect.

Pros:
Aggregate skill development
A callous to change and instability
Your manager's management style
Cons:
The 18-month expiration date
I ain't about that café life anymore
They're resource managers, not manager managers
The outsourcing of mid-level marketing roles
The siren song of FTE conversion

There are also many types of contractors (not all of which are technically contractors btw), like a- (temp contractor), v- (vendor), b- (business guest) ... Different dashes have different rules, depending upon how critical they are. You also get different colors of badges, IIRC. Once in a while, you'll hear the term "dash trash", those dashes don't last long.

Contractors at Microsoft and some other companies in my experience are usually paid hourly rates, which are significantly higher than MS employee salaries if converted into hourly rates. However, these don't include healthcare, time off, etc.

The 18 month was borne out of the 2000 lawsuit, so there's that ...

I should also point out that the salaries are between you and your company, not Microsoft.

Microsoft also requires the contracting company to offer paid parental leave ($1k a week, I think).

This is another good read on how Microsoft got into soup in the first place - by treating contractors like employees:

www.reuters.com

Don't Treat Contractors Like Employees

When hiring freelancers and consultants, don't let what happened to Microsoft happen to you.

" Misclassifying workers as ICs has always been expensive (if you get caught), but the Vizcaino case can make it even more expensive if your company has generous employment benefit programs such as Microsoft's. It's highly advisable for any company that hires ICs to promptly add provisions to all its employee benefit plans specifically excluding coverage for contingent workers. This includes stock option, vacation, sick leave, health insurance and retirement plans. Had Microsoft done this, it might not have had to provide coverage to its misclassified workers. "