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Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Lol, is this supposed to be some sort of noble thing? What you're doing is far worse than those who'll be buying the game, since you're still enjoying the game so many people poured their heart and soul into making, only you'll not be giving them any sort of credit or financial benefit at all, so you're essentially taking advantage of that work and those devs in a much bigger way.
I get your intent... but this simply isn't true. The people who make video games get paid while they are making them. The vast majority won't receive any sort of additional bonus or benefit to the game selling well, and since a large portion of the industry is contract work they were already going to be looking for additional work afterwards regardless of how well that game does.
 

Sage Anahata

Banned
Oct 6, 2019
135
EDIT: YIKES, twitter wall!

Yeah. Some of us has been seeing this from the outside too. Naughty Dog has gotten worse with more talented people actually leaving and them continuing to use the same methods with the people that are left, and getting slower and worse results, which then take that much longer to perfect into their usual bar for quality.

And here are the results of crunch. Treating your employees like anything less than sacred offers zero benefit.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,089
Los Angeles, CA
As someone who has worked in the gaming industry for 14 years, there's just no excuse for crunch. It's incredibly devastating to the workers and their families/friends/mental and emotional health.

My thoughts are that if the game needs to take longer to make to ensure that employees have a healthy work/life balance, then so be it. If dev time is 3 years, but heavy on crunch, scrap that plan and push release. I understand smaller studios may not have that luxury (budget and other resources), but I feel like the larger studios have no excuse.

The worst I've had it was working 7pm to 7am, 7 days a week, for a month straight. It was exhausting, and I didn't get to see my wife (not ex-wife) at all, because on top of that shift, I had a 3 hour commute to work. I'd get home, crash, wake up, get fresh for work, then head out. Maybe, maybe, I'd have an hour or two to spend time with my wife until I had to leave. It was awful.

I'm very fortunate that where I'm at now is adamantly against crunch time. Primarily because the studio heads have all come from previous company's/culture that forced crunch on employees, and they know how detrimental it is to all involved. It's not easy striking that balance between making sure your product is the best it can be, but also that your employees aren't burning out from overwork. It's also not some impossible thing to treat the people that make these games like human beings, with limits and personal lives.

Crunch time just isn't worth it.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I get your intent... but this simply isn't true. The people who make video games get paid while they are making them. The vast majority won't receive any sort of additional bonus or benefit to the game selling well, and since a large portion of the industry is contract work they were already going to be looking for additional work afterwards regardless of how well that game does.

Pretty sure they'd get more promotion avenues, a bigger liklihood of wage increases, potential bonuses, a more potent resume, not to mention keeping their job.

If a AAA game flops or is not as successful as anticipated or projected, that spells bad news for the employees of the said studio, obviously....
 
Mar 8, 2020
389
Washington State
I don't know how people can remain healthy doing this. I used to be able to "crunch" out a few days back in my 20s but as I have gotten older I just don't have the mental stamina. Also, these poor individuals are doing it for days on end? Management is literally draining the well being from their staff. There has to be a better way.
 

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
Schreier still fighting this fight I see. Interesting times.
There is really no reason for this to ever happen...if a project is properly managed, then this should never happen...

Obviously there are multiple factors at work, but if you've set an APPROPRIATE time frame for project completion, and that time is managed properly...then there should be no need to crunch
You're oversimplifying a very human process that is very variable, in an area of development that involves lots of very complex systems which are hard to predict. Even the most proficient and concise development teams often struggle with properly estimating the scope and duration of work.
 

RPTGB

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,189
UK
I wonder if they use a Scrum style management system (though the impression I'm getting from these reports and tweets suggest they have no bloody system), I'd love to be a fly on the wall at one of their meetings if they do.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,089
Los Angeles, CA
Those saying delays just lead to more crunch, that's not an excuse that holds water.

Production schedules are generally meticulously overseen by producers and studio heads. If a delay somehow means more crunch, that's poor management on the producers and studio heads part. The point of a delay is to give developers more time to polish and refine the game.

Let's say you need 1000 extra man hours of work to get your game in a polished state that everyone is proud of. A producer will work to plan out that 1,000 hours of extra man hours over a certain period of time. Unless you're a studio really, really hurting for cash, there is literally nothing else stopping the producer from spreading out those 1,000 overs over a reasonable 8-10 hour work schedule, 5 days a week. Does that mean the game gets delayed? Most certainly. But what it also means is that you don't have workers killing themselves squeezing in that 1,000 man hours in a tiny period of time.

There is most certainly an unspoken pressure on employees that if they don't put in those insane hours, they don't care enough about the product, or they don't have a "strong work ethic." That mentality is toxic, but is incredibly prevalent. At the company where I worked 12 hour days, 7 days a week, it was not so subtly implied that by not doing that work would mean we'd lose our jobs. The "hilarious" irony is that once that crunch time was finished, and the project shipped, we were still laid off en masse. So all that blood, sweat, tears, arguments with the spouse, time lost with family/friends that you can't get back was kind of for nothing. Also didn't help that the game was pretty mediocre and didn't do well anyway, so there wasn't even that feeling of "hey, at least the game is something I can look back on with pride." Instead, I was like, "I wish I had spent more time with my wife, but I needed to pay the bills."

It's bullshit, and a garbage mentality that the industry needs to grow out of.

If the game is so massive in scope and ambition that the company feels it's worth it to fund it/back it, then they should also feel that it's worth it to back up their employees, and create a design schedule that will still ensure quality, without the entire team needing to expend all of their sick and vacation days to recover after it goes gold and launches.

Making video games is hard, and often thankless and demoralizing, and that's not including crunch. One of the things that I appreciate about my job is that we have a People, Product, Profit style mentality when it comes to how we approach our games. The people come first. The people that are making the game, and the people that will eventually play the game. The product is the result of the people, and if the people are going into it passionate, energized, motivated, and in good spirits, the product will reflect that. The profit will come if the product is quality, and a quality product is a result of the various incredibly talented people that put in the work. We still get stressed and frustrated (because making games is hard, as I said before), and we push ourselves hard to make our game the best it can be, but at least we don't have the specter of crunch casting a shadow over us, and even then, our leaders are incredibly adamant about us not overworking ourselves, even when we want to spend some extra time in the office to get "just a little more in there."

So many of us have a kind of PTSD from past experiences at other companies, that it's taken many of us a long time to adjust to a non-crunch life. It's sad, and it shouldn't be this way. It's going to take a massive shift of mindset within the gaming industry, and unfortunately, many studio heads are determined to stick to the "old way" of approaching game development, at the detriment of the very people that make the products they produce.

Delays don't have to mean "more crunch," and I refuse to accept that as an excuse.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
I work 40-45 hours a week and I already feel like it's borderline insanity, I can't imagine having to "crunch" for more than a couple of days tbh.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,624
Oof...

Cooper is really airing them out on Twitter. Rough situation.

I know you probably can't talk about it but is it this bad at Activision? I know I obviously have enjoyed many games built on crunch but... Man, I love MW and I guess I hate the idea of me having fun at the expensive of people's lives being tarnished.

At the same time I don't want to be: "Just enjoy it" sort of thing. I just wish consumers can do more. Cause at this point, not buying a game built on crunch, doesn't work. Cause for the 10s or 100s or even 1000s who care, there are so many more who don't. Just so powerless.
 

Kadath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
621
This is like addiction to coffee: as you start, the caffeine gives you a helpful boost. As it becomes an habit, you'll need the caffeine to match the performance you'd have if you never used caffeine.

So basically with crunch you multiply dev hours only to obtain a similar performance of working normal hours without the stress.
 

@dedmunk

Banned
Oct 11, 2018
3,088
Because in some places that is not the problem. It is culture. If they hired 100 more people, they would put them on crunch "because that way we can get a better game."

It is incredibly easy to manipulate someone when they are working on their childhood dream.

In the article it states its even worse because they reduced staffing though doesn't it?
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498


I think this is extremely commendable and should be what all studios strive towards, but one thing to note is that major Ubisoft titles are generally of a notably lower quality with far more bugs, issues, repetitive elements and facets etc comparative to say tentpole projects from ND, CDPR or Rockstar. Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six (at launch), Assassin's Creed (felt like an annualised franchise at one point) etc, don't exactly hold up to stuff like TW3, RDR2, TLOU etc.

The ultimate challenge is going to be having a studio that can put out ground breaking, tech and design boundary pushing AAA critically acclaimed titles that are also free from crunch. I'm hoping the more coverage there is on this stuff, the more these studios are compelled to improve their working practices, whilst retaining the quality of the output.
 
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ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,448
I know you probably can't talk about it but is it this bad at Activision? I know I obviously have enjoyed many games built on crunch but... Man, I love MW and I guess I hate the idea of me having fun at the expensive of people's lives being tarnished.

At the same time I don't want to be: "Just enjoy it" sort of thing. I just wish consumers can do more. Cause at this point, not buying a game built on crunch, doesn't work. Cause for the 10s or 100s or even 1000s who care, there are so many more who don't. Just so powerless.

It's certainly not like Rockstar or ND over here, no disrespect. It's not perfect but we're not living like that.
 

Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,409
Said another Naughty Dog developer: "They've never seen success any other way, so they don't believe there's another way of achieving it."
This quote really sticks out to me. The "if it helped us to get where we are, why change?" mentality seems to be one of the sticking points for a lot of these beloved studios from changing their ways.
 

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
I think this is extremely commendable and should be what all studios strive towards, but one thing to note is that major Ubisoft titles are generally of a much lower quality with far more bugs, issues, repetitive elements and facets etc comparative to say tentpole projects from ND, CDPR or Rockstar. Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six (at launch), Assassin's Creed (felt like an annualised franchise at one point) etc, don't exactly hold up to stuff like TW3, RDR2, TLOU etc.

The ultimate challenge is going to be having a studio that can put out ground breaking, tech and design boundary pushing AAA critically acclaimed titles that are also free from crunch. I'm hoping the more coverage there is on this stuff, the more these studios are compelled to improve.

Given that he's saying he crunched FOR AC3, this is completely irrelevant
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,504
ND are an incredible team, but they risk losing that team and talent if crunch keeps up for more projects, and they need long term talent. After TLOU2 and all the stuff they have planned alongside it, I hope they can take feedback from staff and former employees, have an honest assessment and go from there. Heck, they can ask Insomniac how they manage things as they're often seen as one of the best places to work in the country.

If they ignore this, eventually it will come back to haunt them.
 

Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,409
It also makes no sense, Naughty Dog already had a lot of sucess before The Last Of Us or Uncharted 4.
I'm pretty certain the crunch culture would have been around before those games, but technical demands have exacerbated things so it's worse now, or at least more noticeable.
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
This kind of thing is usually driven entirely but the leadership because they are primarily responsible for creating the culture.

Software development (and IT more broadly) attracts a large number of a certain type of person who doesn't care about doing 14 hours days sitting behind a computer because that's what they did growing up and they basically live for this stuff. They didn't have a healthy balance in their lives prior to work and they don't once they start work. If those people get into management or are allowed to drive the culture, this is the environment that results.

It takes an active, concerted effort from leadership to push back against this kind of culture. Naughty Dog clearly seem to have embraced it wholesale which is gross. You couldn't pay me enough to work there.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
I don't have any experience in game development, but i can tell you that the quality of my work after 40 hours is not going to be the same as my quality of work for my first 40 hours, we aren't machines. We get worn down, and in an incredibly complex project like video game development i can't imagine that they aren't making mistakes that they normally wouldn't if they were working normal hours.

You'd think hemorrhaging talent alone would be enough to make them stop, but i guess they feel like there's always going to be enough talented young kids that they can take advantage of.
 

Deleted member 22465

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
39
A bit off-topic but it was really embarrassing that I saw on twitter some game devs saying that Jason doesn't know what he is talking about, that he is an "ambulance chaser" looking for the next scoop and that he only does this kind of articles to promote his book.

Another person implying that only people who has worked on game development should be the ones to report what "actually happens" at game studios. And finally, another person saying that journalist probably exaggerate the stories they report (and this is a bit ironic after Jonathan Cooper said that one of his friends had to be hospitalised after crunching).

Two of those comments really saddened me because it came from people who are pro-union, so I don't get why they would go against Jason's story like that.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
very insightful from Cooper. food for thought.

And i wanted to get into this industry... guess thats a no
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,531
I don't get why people work there then. They have a bad rep, don't apply there unless you are willing to deal with it. If they can't attract talent, wouldn't things have to change?
 

ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
12,948
I don't get why people work there then. They have a bad rep, don't apply there unless you are willing to deal with it. If they can't attract talent, wouldn't things have to change?

i too am baffled as to why devs would want to work for one of Sony's prestigious game studios despite having a poor workplace rep

like rockstar
or crystal dynamics
or netherrealm

someone pls explain this 2 me

/sarcasm
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
I think this is extremely commendable and should be what all studios strive towards, but one thing to note is that major Ubisoft titles are generally of a notably lower quality with far more bugs, issues, repetitive elements and facets etc comparative to say tentpole projects from ND, CDPR or Rockstar. Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six (at launch), Assassin's Creed (felt like an annualised franchise at one point) etc, don't exactly hold up to stuff like TW3, RDR2, TLOU etc.
I love the implication here that insane crunch culture would've suddenly made those titles GOTY worthy.

I don't get why people work there then. They have a bad rep, don't apply there unless you are willing to deal with it. If they can't attract talent, wouldn't things have to change?
There are people who'd kill to get a contract to work with ND regardless of their reputation. That's how this sort of crunch culture sustains itself.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I love the implication here that insane crunch culture would've suddenly made those titles GOTY worthy.

That wasn't the implication at all. In-fact, in no way does more crunch in any way guarantee better quality games (similar to how a bigger budget doesn't automatically guarantee better quality). But it would most likely be easier to avoid crunch if the quality, ambition and polish bar for a said game is generally lower.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
It's certainly not like Rockstar or ND over here, no disrespect. It's not perfect but we're not living like that.

That's somewhat comforting to hear


That wasn't the implication at all. In-fact, in no way does more crunch in any way guarantee better quality games (similar to how a bigger budget doesn't automatically guarantee better quality). But it would most likely be easier to avoid crunch if the quality, ambition and polish bar for a said game is generally lower.

I feel like I kinda understand the point you're trying to make, but maaaaaan you're not doing yourself any favours with wording.

I don't think the hundreds of people working on Assassins Creed intentionally set a low bar for themselves. Like...lol
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
It also makes no sense, Naughty Dog already had a lot of sucess before The Last Of Us or Uncharted 4.
Naughty Dog has been a hell hole for a long time. This level of burning through developers goes back to at least Uncharted 1. They lost a fuckton of people during the development of that game already. It nearly broke them.
 

Ivanovic

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,362
If Sony want this bad news to disappear, they should quickly release some PS5 info and all this will be forgotten in seconds
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
That wasn't the implication at all. In-fact, in no way does more crunch in any way guarantee better quality games (similar to how a bigger budget doesn't automatically guarantee better quality). But it would most likely be easier to avoid crunch if the quality, ambition and polish bar for a said game is generally lower.
The ambition of ubisoft titles is not lower than that of CDPR, Rockstar, or ND. Especially if you actually examine what goes into their games. Game is less like a movie=/=less ambition. Hell the last AC is most definitely more ambitious than TW3 or Horizon. It's development just was way smoother. An attempt to reinenvent the wheel everytime over smart asset reuse is not exactly sustainable. Lost Legacy is a better title than UC4 as an example.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,483
You'd think as time goes on people would get better at managing, and figuring out these sort of things especially after so many games. It must take real genius's to be this bad at development. Just cut content or calculate the amount you can create times the number of people you need. I know its no where near as simple as that but that's the job of managers figure out what you can get done in the time required and do it without destroying people.

I feel like it could partly be Sony's fault it seems like they like to keep the studios small and outsource loads to China, give these studios more staff and help or force them to manage better.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I feel like I kinda understand the point you're trying to make, but maaaaaan you're not doing yourself any favours with wording.

I don't think the hundreds of people working on Assassins Creed intentionally set a low bar for themselves. Like...lol

Of course, but I think the creative heads probably just have a different level of vision or set of goals, ambitions or ideals. AC is or was almost like an annualised franchise in terms of expectations, features or quality bar from one release to the next, though they have gone to lengths to improve that with recent releases in the franchise.

Ghost Recon Breakpoint, Rainbow Six, Far Cry New Dawn, Just Dance etc, at least at launch, were....questionable in quality terms, especially comparative to the works from the other studios being discussed (from Rockstar, CDPR, ND).

These other studios really need to find a better balance where they can continue making critically acclaimed boundary pushing games, whilst maintaining excellent working conditions and an anti-crunch culture. Whether that's through longer dev times, more hires, better management etc (or all of these things), I don't know, but I hope they get there.
 

Sasaud

Member
Oct 28, 2017
379
If you want to see some masterpiece vision completed, you should not be doing 12 hour workdays. The quality of your work past the first 6-8 hours will diminish and if prolonged, you'll be tired the next day as well and not do your best in the long run. A well rested, not overworked employee does the best job not someone who has overexhausted him-/her/-themselves by working 12+ hour days for months. That's a workaholic speaking. It's not healthy.
I'm honestly speaking without experience i was just saying what i was thinking.
Anyways i really hope that sony and the other companies will do something to change without compromising on the teams vision.