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Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
It's cause making games is really fucking hard. Games are some of the most complex pieces of commercially available software (they incorporate artificial intelligence, computer graphics, and other highly specialized engineering fields) and on top of merely being functional, they also need to deliver positive emotional experiences for users (like fun for example), which will likely require significant iteration and redesign as the project goes on.
And the counter argument here is that video games being complex has been a thing since video games happened. What is the constant here that continuously allows the crunch to happen? Video games being complicated isn't forcing people to stay over and abide by unspoken crunch rules.

it's managers. They don't know how to manage in a way that avoids crunch.
 

Deleted member 11976

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,585
AAA (damn near AAAA) game development is unsustainable. sooner or later there won't be enough bodies left to throw into the machine.
New technologies help developers work faster and tools are improving all the time. Think of how Speedtree or Houdini can procedurally scatter foliage and trees so level artists don't have to do it by hand, as one example.

Among the industry, folks know that ND is a studio you work at to join some of the best in the business but crunch like hell to do so. I know of people who went there just to ship 1 title so that, afterwards, their CV opens doors anywhere else they want to go. Everyone knows the risks and expectations when they go in. Same as many other studios.
 

wesker83

Member
Dec 3, 2018
1,180
Plenty of games come out. There isn't really a need to crunch. Hopefully it stops. So games take another 6 months-1 year. Who cares.
That is easy to say when you don't account for corporate greed. Having a game spend another 6 months to a year in development is another 6 months to a year of salary and benefits the company has to pay. This isn't an easy issue to fix because the number crunchers are always going to be pushing the bar back if it ever gets moved.
 

ryan299

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,427
Complete company dysfunction. I work in a job that requires a ton of overtime and can tell you it comes from poor management a majority of the time. A union is desperately needed in this industry as things are just out of control. Leadership needs to be better.

Also their core hours are 1030 to 630. Screw that. Why anybody would want to work those hours is beyond me.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,966
I'm surprised well established studios like ND are crunching. They should be able to take as much time as they need.
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,653
Beyond having a union, I think the only way this changes in the "triple-A" gaming industry, is by simply having more actual people working on these kinds of gigantic experiences. And that might mean the base cost of a $60 video game finally goes up.

But game teams have done nothing but grown massively over the last couple of gens, and crunch has only gotten worse. Last I heard Naughty Dog themselves are close to 500 people now, Sony's biggest team.
 
The crunch is garbage to the highest degree, but what also grinds my teeth is the fact that the creative leads are changing shit at the 11th freaking hour! Like it tells me either there is no direction or the story people are so high off thier own farts, that they'll basically screw some poor bastard who spent almost a month working on something & throw it in the garbage. Also I don't like hearing the story changed because focus testing... I know the first had the same thing, but like I'm still concerned here.
 

Yuuber

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,153
Something Id like to point out is that good people managers ensure the wellbeing of the employee first and foremost. Remarks like "they work as hard as they want to" speaks to massive negligence in regards to leadership.

This particular brand of crunch (not enforced, employee initiated) happens a lot because the talent often WANTS to deliver the content being asked of them. Its the managers job to make people go home and lessen the workload so the talent doesn't feel pressured. Its also a bit of a false statement because the leadership sets the sprints and deliverables so theyre speaking out of both sides of their mouth when the messages are these:

"you dont have to crunch if you want to"
"These 4 characters need to be done to meet the deadline next week"

...

Absolutely! I can relate to that. I often do 12 hours or more a day despite being on a 40 hour/week contract due to goals and demands. Nobody is really enforcing me to do it, but nobody is telling me to go home either. On the contrary, if you work extra hard you're often praised.
 

mxbison

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
2,148
Why is management at video game developers so fucking bad at managing a business?

I really wish I knew more about video game development to understand why creating a development schedule seems to be the hardest task known to mankind

Software development in general is hard. There is just so much stuff that can go wrong or take way longer than planned.

And software doesn't get much more complex than a AAA video game.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,634
The stress could have been more extreme for a shorter amount of time if they didnt delay. You also have to consider if this was planned or if they attempted to ease crunch and its failed before you call it a lie imo. The only thing clear to me was the delay was more about keeping to the vision of the game then anything else which they did mention.
It does not seem planned. They announced the delay a month after revealing the Feb release date.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,164
I legitimately (and sadly) think the only way this changes is some kind of government regulation (which I doubt happens). The Last of Us 2 and Cyberpunk will come out to commercial and critical acclaim and a vast majority of people will forget Jason's story (if they were even aware of it in the first place) and this cycle will continue with the next big AAA game. Consumer pushback in any meaningful form will never, ever happen; and barring that there's just zero impetus for these companies to change the way they do business.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
"At this point we were faced with two options: compromise parts of the game or get more time. We went with the latter, and this new release date allows us to finish everything to our level of satisfaction while also reducing stress on the team."

blog.us.playstation.com

The Last of Us Part II Comes to PS4 in May June 19

An update from the game's director.
Who to believe, the official statement of the PR department or Jason Schreier.
 

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
These days, veteran Naughty Dog employees describe the design department as a sea of unfamiliar faces. With 70 percent of the non-lead designers and a significant number of artists who worked on Uncharted 4 now gone, the company has had to fill those roles with less experienced staff, many of whom hadn't worked on Naughty Dog games before The Last of Us II.

Every newcomer means weeks' or months' worth of training and hard lessons about how the rest of the team works. A task that might take a veteran designer two hours could take twice or three times as long for a newer employee, and it can be hard to know what the directors want until you've been working there long enough. On The Last of Us II, new artists working with new designers found themselves baffled as to how to hit the standards that Naughty Dog expected, a problem exacerbated by a management culture in which feedback is usually negative. (One of the studio's unwritten maxims is that if you don't hear anything, you're doing well.) "It's been a little bit of the blind leading the blind as we go in circles and find our way," said one developer.

In the past, Naughty Dog has been reluctant to hire junior-level staff for this very reason. The studio's bar for detail is so high that inexperienced people are unlikely to hit it on their first or second tries, which inevitably leads to hours of rework and hours of crunch for everyone.

Naughty Dog's lead designers "expect the same level of quality out of a lot of the junior contractors as they do out of people who have been here for a while, which is ridiculous," said one developer. "It's certainly led to a lot of stress and feeling like shit to most people who are new, which sucks."
.....
After the brutal development cycles of Uncharted 4 and Uncharted Lost Legacy, Naughty Dog has found itself with little choice but to hire a disproportionately high number of juniors and contractors for The Last of Us II, even if that perpetuates many of the problems that caused senior staff to leave.

Some at Naughty Dog who spoke to me for this story said they expect more people to quit, or that they plan to leave themselves, once The Last of Us II has shipped and bonuses came in (which is usually six months after release). And so the cycle will continue.

Yet there are also those developers, some of whom still work at Naughty Dog today, who say that there's a part of them that actually wishes this game would fail. A critical flop might help show Naughty Dog that this isn't the best way to make games, that this level of sacrifice isn't necessary, that maybe the project isn't worth losing all of these people.

I just read this entire article and man i had no idea things were this bad at Naughty Dog. Basically Naughty Dog in 2020 is a different company from 2010.

Should we brace ourselves for a dip in quality for The Last Of Us Part 2? Cause this article sure sounds like it's preparing us for that possibility.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,690
I just read this entire article and man i had no idea things were this bad at Naughty Dog. Basically Naughty Dog in 2020 is a different company from 2010.

Should we brace ourselves for a dip in quality for The Last Of Us Part 2? Cause this article sure sounds like it's preparing us for that possibility.
A "dip" in quality for TLOU2 would still make it a GOTY contender
 

DreamSurf

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,715
I just read this entire article and man i had no idea things were this bad at Naughty Dog. Basically Naughty Dog in 2020 is a different company from 2010.

Should we brace ourselves for a dip in quality for The Last Of Us Part 2? Cause this article sure sounds like it's preparing us for that possibility.
Didnt various developers say the game is going to be really good in that interview? I think its less of the quality dip and more of the sacrifices made to achieve that quality.

Sony is having a rough ass week. I really wish Sony could just attach a date to their PS5 news.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Wait, people are outraged because of 12 hour days? 12 hour days is not unusual for MANY professional workers out there. That doesn't mean it's good, but some people need some perspective here. When there are deadlines in any industry, there is crunch. 12 hour days is not THAT bad. Or that unusual and definitely not unique to video game developers. It 100% sucks that this is a reality, but it is and people can and do change jobs if this lifestyle isn't for them.
The fuck am I reading lol. Not only are 12 hour days bad, they are borderline nonsensical because people just aren't productive in those last hours.
 

Sasaud

Member
Oct 28, 2017
379
False. They could, you know, take longer to make the game and not work their employees beyond exhaustion in the name of turning profits sooner.
I'm talking about volunteer crunch like what this article is suggesting.
If i'm making a game that i love making and will most likely be a masterpiece then i would do the impossible to see the vision complete. And btw jason has talked before that delaying games will most likely bring more crunch so it's the culture that needs changing.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,045
No, I'm not saying those people all took the job for the resume boost. But it doesn't seem like a massive stretch to me that someone would figure "let's just see the project through, and then leave". Obiously that's not all of them, but this doesn't seem like some far fetched scenario to me lol.

I think a lot of people would rather see a project through, than leaving mid development, especially if they don't have a backup plan and the source of income is gone/at risk.

Leaving mid development would also probably make me feel bad. That would put a lot of extra strain on my colleagues, because they would potentially have to work on stuff that I was supposed to work on. It's a really tough situation either way, but I get what you tried to say. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah I don't get it either, If that's really the case then it shows that Naughty Dog is more of a brand than a team.

It's kind of like ''Yeah I used to work at Microsoft, f*ck that place but still, I used to work at Microsoft.''

There's certainly people doing this, but when 70% of a certain department leaves the company, then there must be a bigger problem and in this case we know what it is.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
The developers there are voluntarily working crunch though? Like what does a union even solve here? The piece mentions how nobody asks anyone to work nights or weekends... they just do it anyway.
Peer pressure is a thing. No one wants to be the one who always leaves right at the end of the regular work day. Just because "no one asks" doesn't mean it's not somewhat expected or simply such a normal thing that no one dares to deviate from it.
 

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
Sony is having a rough ass week. I really wish Sony could just attach a date to their PS5 news.

Rough week? What happened besides this news?
After the HBO announcing TLOU2, the Ghost of Tsushima trailer last week i actually think things have been great for them. What did i miss?
 
Feb 28, 2020
57
The truth is, games like the last of us wouldn't exist without crunch. One couldn't even buy the console to play it on without exploiting factory workers at Foxconn.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I'm talking about volunteer crunch like what this article is suggesting.
If i'm making a game that i love making and will most likely be a masterpiece then i would do the impossible to see the vision complete. And btw jason has talked before that delaying games will most likely bring more crunch so it's the culture that needs changing.
If you want to see some masterpiece vision completed, you should not be doing 12 hour workdays. The quality of your work past the first 6-8 hours will diminish and if prolonged, you'll be tired the next day as well and not do your best in the long run. A well rested, not overworked employee does the best job not someone who has overexhausted him-/her/-themselves by working 12+ hour days for months. That's a workaholic speaking. It's not healthy.
 

DreamSurf

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,715
Rough week? What happened besides this news?
After the HBO announcing TLOU2, the Ghost of Tsushima trailer last week i actually think things have been great for them. What did i miss?
People overreacting to the Horizon PC news. Even with Hermans statements it was run like the entire PS catalogue had a release date for PC.
 

chefbags

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,289
I just read this entire article and man i had no idea things were this bad at Naughty Dog. Basically Naughty Dog in 2020 is a different company from 2010.

Should we brace ourselves for a dip in quality for The Last Of Us Part 2? Cause this article sure sounds like it's preparing us for that possibility.

More like the opposite right? The crunch is detrimental to the employees but as far as the game goes, in the article it mentions itll probably one of Naughty Dog's best game again.
 

Rzarekta

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
1,289
Extended long hours of work is a problem in many industries, yes. But this is a gaming forum, so the discussion here is about gaming studios.

My wife is at one of the big accounting firms, and yes, they go through some terrible working hours at various points of the year (particularly when you are early in your career). That is the biggest reason why so many employees choose to leave to industry jobs where they can often make more money (in the short term) for a much better work/life balance.
Yes, accounting for me as well. And I know this is a video game forum and that's what the discussion should be geared towards, but people getting this upset over 12 hour work days when it's actually a common thing was something that I wanted to address.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,528
Spain
The industry has reached a point where "ambitious" is synonymous with crunch, like Rockstar. I don't think we need many things from these mega AAA, not at the expense of people's health.
 

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
More like the opposite right? The crunch is detrimental to the employees but as far as the game goes, in the article it mentions itll probably one of Naughty Dog's best game again.

You're probably right. I do hope Naughty Dog can overcome this. And i appreciate this article because these things need to be known out there. Some pressure might be just enough to do something about all this.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Who knew that "The Last of Us" was actually about the ND developers left after Uncharted 4?

...Apologies if someone else in this thread already made that bad joke.
 

Arion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,807
That sounds brutal. The studio seems to be filled with people who want to crunch and expect others to do the same yet no one actually verbalises it. They believe all the effort they are putting in is worth it but later realise the heavy cost of it. Unionising doesn't seem like the solution here. Maybe having a bigger production team and people who will force people to stop working overtime could help but that seems unlikely.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
I would gladly delay a game by six months if it means they could be stress free and work normal hours

Crunching saves corporations money, but that doesn't mean quality will be better as workers will be stressed out working long hrs, and are more likely to be less productive and make more mistakes, and sacrifice their health + relationships
 

asd202

Enlightened
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,559
I'm not surprised I always thought that the turnaround after Uncharted 4 with the Lost Legacy and Tlou 2 was crazy, It already felt way too soon. I wonder why couldn't TLOU 2 be a PS5 game for late 2021 or 2022? It's not like releasing the game this late in the generation will accomplish anything and with such schedule a lot of this crunch could have been avoided but hell what do I know
 
Last edited:

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
The truth is, games like the last of us wouldn't exist without crunch. One couldn't even buy the console to play it on without exploiting factory workers at Foxconn.

I seriously doubt that. The software industry isn't perfect but crunch is much less of an issue for similar types of work.

Even if these games do need this type of work schedule, then maybe they shouldn't exist. It's exploitative and not healthy for the workers.
 

Deleted member 11626

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
AAA = crunch. At this point, we need to support unionization among game developers. They are horribly exploited, especially for a skill set that pays much better (not to mention better treatment) in other mediums and industries.
 

FelixFFM

Member
Nov 7, 2017
345
I think whether or not a studio like ND could even exist (along with the kind of game they make) under unionisation is a legitimate question.
Unionisation would put a lid on this hyper-competitiveness among devs and would discourage amassing such a team of passionate perfectionists. But what would that mean for the games they make?
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
One thing that sticks out is the inefficiencies like changes not filtering down and wasting days of multiple people's work.

That bit about not having producers is telling. Producer/project manager is not something optional for a large project. Those folks are the glue between departments and responsible for keeping people in the same page. The fact they want people to self manage their priorities is just putting even more burden on already overworked people.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,909
Shitty employee conditions?

OK so the ones "who cant cut it" will leave and who cares when there are literal floods of people who will do anything to work on the next Naughty Dog games. Its an ever growing resource of fresh talent that you can grab, squeeze for five years and when theyre done just find the next batch

I think crunch should be abolished and have made several posts and threads on the matter so Im playing devils advocate here,, the company just hopes consumers dont find out and that it doesnt harm the recruiting process. Theyre being very shady by washing their hands off of this with the "but theyre passionate! We dont tell them to do it" rhetoric
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Yes, accounting for me as well. And I know this is a video game forum and that's what the discussion should be geared towards, but people getting this upset over 12 hour work days when it's actually a common thing was something that I wanted to address.
12 hour days for months or years on end is NOT normal. At least not in western countries outside US.
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Yes, accounting for me as well. And I know this is a video game forum and that's what the discussion should be geared towards, but people getting this upset over 12 hour work days when it's actually a common thing was something that I wanted to address.
Just because something is common doesn't mean it should be accepted, the fuck is this kind of reasoning