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Jason Schreier: As Naughty Dog Crunches On The Last Of Us II, Developers Wonder How Much Longer This Approach Can Last
- Thread starter Deleted member 8196
- Start date
Something Id like to point out is that good people managers ensure the wellbeing of the employee first and foremost. Remarks like "they work as hard as they want to" speaks to massive negligence in regards to leadership.
This particular brand of crunch (not enforced, employee initiated) happens a lot because the talent often WANTS to deliver the content being asked of them. Its the managers job to make people go home and lessen the workload so the talent doesn't feel pressured. Its also a bit of a false statement because the leadership sets the sprints and deliverables so theyre speaking out of both sides of their mouth when the messages are these:
"you dont have to crunch if you want to"
"These 4 characters need to be done to meet the deadline next week"
One of the points of agile developing and dev tracking (using tools like Jira and whatnot) are there so that the talent can TELL you the amount of work they can do in a sprint and then you plan around that, not the other way around.
On my game we deliver content at a pretty damn fast pace so we need to keep employee burnout in our minds at all times. We still do long hours here and there, gamedev is hard and all, but we set what we always think are reasonable timeframes and have cut content and features accordingly when we know it would mean heavy crunch for the talent.
This particular brand of crunch (not enforced, employee initiated) happens a lot because the talent often WANTS to deliver the content being asked of them. Its the managers job to make people go home and lessen the workload so the talent doesn't feel pressured. Its also a bit of a false statement because the leadership sets the sprints and deliverables so theyre speaking out of both sides of their mouth when the messages are these:
"you dont have to crunch if you want to"
"These 4 characters need to be done to meet the deadline next week"
One of the points of agile developing and dev tracking (using tools like Jira and whatnot) are there so that the talent can TELL you the amount of work they can do in a sprint and then you plan around that, not the other way around.
On my game we deliver content at a pretty damn fast pace so we need to keep employee burnout in our minds at all times. We still do long hours here and there, gamedev is hard and all, but we set what we always think are reasonable timeframes and have cut content and features accordingly when we know it would mean heavy crunch for the talent.
Something I'd be curious to hear about: are ND forcing employees to go to work even with the coronavirus pandemic alive and well in Los Angeles?
What's with the weird posts trying to absolve the studio leads of any blame.
They're the ones who let this type of work culture foster, they're the ones who profit the most from it and at the end of the day they're the one that have legions of zealots thinking of them when they scream Naughty Gods or insert whatever studio name.
They're 100% culpable and they're disgusting people for it.
They're the ones who let this type of work culture foster, they're the ones who profit the most from it and at the end of the day they're the one that have legions of zealots thinking of them when they scream Naughty Gods or insert whatever studio name.
They're 100% culpable and they're disgusting people for it.
Are you arguing that women character models are harder to animate and require such extra special care and attention that it would require crunch culture.
"Making movies" is just as much of a dream job for a lot of people as "making games'. Both are industries of passion. Whether it's actually having creative impact on the project or just focusing on your specialized field, being lighting or Foley or whatever else.
Well, if you're on a network show you are working most of the year (though do have a couple months off). For features or cable that is still several months in a row. But I see your point that jobs in the game industry last much longer as games have a longer time to produce, so they aren't completely directly comparable. And you can't just take a break whenever you want between jobs like you can in the more gig-based film industry.
Maybe having some sort of shift system would be beneficial, like a team works for six months or something, then gets a break and another team does the next six. Although even saying that I can already see some issues... I mean no one really wants to take that long off work. And many people truly don't want a break at all.
Hiring more people often leads to more mismanagement. People usually fall for it.
Also, Naughty Dog games are considered "prestige" games for Sony. Sales, while important, are second place to the prestige and accolades their games earn
Usually that's the way it works when you're either in management or in high-paying positions. I don't think it's necessarily mandatory but I think everybody feels then expectation and wants to deliver a solid product as soon as possible.
Just think for a second how you apply hustle and hard work to your own workplace. Now that doesn't mean it could be 12 hour days but let me be straight, I have worked those types of shifts not because I wanted to but because the team needed it. People go home sick, things happen and you are understaffed, it's a little bit more granular than just a blanket statement.
Just think for a second how you apply hustle and hard work to your own workplace. Now that doesn't mean it could be 12 hour days but let me be straight, I have worked those types of shifts not because I wanted to but because the team needed it. People go home sick, things happen and you are understaffed, it's a little bit more granular than just a blanket statement.
You do realize what you are asking with this, right? This isn't a " US/European corporate culture run amok" story, it's a "Authoritarian government running internment and forced labor camps of ethnic minorities" story. What makes you think Jason has the resources, sources, and ability to cover this story? This is not a story you can do without contacts inside of China and probably not something you can investigate properly without going there and talking to the people who have gotten out. Doing so is so incredibly risky (people have been disappeared by the CCP for less) that I can't even believe you are seriously tagging him and asking this. He literally just had a baby. Meanwhile a Chinese man who was reporting on the virus outbreak in Wuhan has been missing for a month after making videos about how Chinese authorities are coming after him. The fact that you think this is a reasonable request to make is just...insane.
Your lack of mismanagement on your part does not constitute crunch on mine.
Yikes. If your own workers want your project to flop just for you to wake up, then you already failed as a manager. Someone at Sony really needs to address this issue or they're going to have their own Bioware situation.
Read the whole article. None of it surprises me sadly. The most telling thing is at the end where developers are actually WISHING the game to fail in hopes that it might change the culture at ND.
Except that often doesn't solve the problem, it only prolongs it.
I know there are big studios out there that work out just fine with a reasonable schedules. Big changes should've come to Naughty Dog ages ago. It's not like you're going to get somebody's best work when they're overworked and stressed out.
Reducing the stress of the prospect of releasing a shitty game maybe, lol.
I love Naughty Dog and it's a real shame to hear about the culture there. It is good they don't seem to force crunch but only hiring those that will do it willingly is exploitative. All companies have a responsibility to their employees health and welfare.
Unfortunately, I and many others will still buy TLOU II and all the other great games made with horrendous working conditions so I don't see it changing until the industry has literally exhausted itself.
Unfortunately, I and many others will still buy TLOU II and all the other great games made with horrendous working conditions so I don't see it changing until the industry has literally exhausted itself.
Except delays don't help with that, they make it worse. The article said that the delay of TLOU 2 just meant an extension of the crunch. And surely that's true of Cyberpunk, and many other games as well.
ND sounds like a fucking utter mess to work with (between the horrendous crunch and that sexual harassment case from a few years ago that they swept under the rug).
Big, major changes need to happen there so they're not literally killing their employees.
Big, major changes need to happen there so they're not literally killing their employees.
As an accountant, I know what this feels like. At least the devs have journalists like Jason championing a union for them. Meanwhile in accounting it is literally written in the government employment standards that we don't get overtime. Its 10-12 hours days, 6 days a week, 5 months out of the year, and nobody seems to give a shit.
Employment standards like this need to die.
Employment standards like this need to die.
False. They could, you know, take longer to make the game and not work their employees beyond exhaustion in the name of turning profits sooner.
Not that it makes it okay, but my perspective on crunch is informed by my living with it.
For around 2 or 3 months a year, I do 11 or 12 hours a day. 14 if I forgo my commute and sleep in the attic at work. For my employees, I make sure to keep the drivers overtime down so they are not out on the road fatigued. For technicians, I allow them to work for as long as they are willing or able. Some of them can put in that 10 or 12 hours for the crunch, and I send home the ones that can't even if they want to. I try not to judge performance based on their physical endurance or willingness to burn themselves, aside from ordering some food when we miss dinner.
I dont know. I can take the job or leave it and ultimately im complicit in overwork. Conflicted. I think of it as a "good" job. But is it really?
For around 2 or 3 months a year, I do 11 or 12 hours a day. 14 if I forgo my commute and sleep in the attic at work. For my employees, I make sure to keep the drivers overtime down so they are not out on the road fatigued. For technicians, I allow them to work for as long as they are willing or able. Some of them can put in that 10 or 12 hours for the crunch, and I send home the ones that can't even if they want to. I try not to judge performance based on their physical endurance or willingness to burn themselves, aside from ordering some food when we miss dinner.
I dont know. I can take the job or leave it and ultimately im complicit in overwork. Conflicted. I think of it as a "good" job. But is it really?
It can. And does happen. Construction crunches, if you wanna call it that, just as much. 7/12 from January to April is disgusting.
Again, tis all about games I know but it anything new new.
Do I have a solution? Nah. But I never think 12 hours will make anything better. Probably get better quality in 10 hour shifts.
I'm with ya there. And honestly I'm still going to buy the game. I mean, someone better than me can find a solution tho. One that helps everyone.
Where is the lie? They didnt say they would have to crunch if they dont delay, only that they would have to sacrifice elements of the game. Still sucks these guys work such long hours. I used to work 10hr days in a ship yard 6 days a week and it took its toll eventually.
I am 99% confident that Druckmann wasn't lying and that in fact this is exactly what he was talking about. I don't think he meant to imply that the delay would mitigate the crunch, because he and everyone else there knew that wasn't true.
They said a delay will reduce stress on the team. Everything we are hearing is the opposite of that.
The people in charge are rethinking it constantly, looking for ways to get even richer
Exactly. And that's coming from people inside the industry
If they delay the game further, they would crunch regardless. There's no such thing as "finished" when making AAA games.
What would be the solution? Hiring more people? Probably not, since "too many cooks spoil the broth" and all that.
Unfortunatelly, that's the industry reality. Heck, that's capitalism reality.
It will keep on existing as long as gaming exists.
70% of the designers from U4 left the studio, but they probably hired just as much if not more later since the studio's name is huge.
The best option in a workplace like this would be to build your resume, and then leave to somewhere else. I presume that this is very commom.
It's cause making games is really fucking hard. Games are some of the most complex pieces of commercially available software (they incorporate artificial intelligence, computer graphics, and other highly specialized engineering fields) and on top of merely being functional, they also need to deliver positive emotional experiences for users (like fun for example), which will likely require significant iteration and redesign as the project goes on.
The stress could have been more extreme for a shorter amount of time if they didnt delay. You also have to consider if this was planned or if they attempted to ease crunch and its failed before you call it a lie imo. The only thing clear to me was the delay was more about keeping to the vision of the game then anything else which they did mention.
Obviously I'm going to buy the game regardless but it's always sad to hear your favourite developers running their staff into the ground.
As always this 'we don't force people to crunch' is just bullshit. If they wanted to they could easily put a lock on the door on Friday and say 'No-one comes in to work until Monday'.
As always this 'we don't force people to crunch' is just bullshit. If they wanted to they could easily put a lock on the door on Friday and say 'No-one comes in to work until Monday'.
If it doesn't sell well initially they could just as easily turn it around on everyone; "you didn't crunch hard enough"
Nintendo had the right idea, delay Animal Crossing to avoid this. Games can wait, people's lives need protection from bad work conditions