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Josh378

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,521
Could they hire more staff but lower pay. This will allow for less working hours and it's more comfortable lifestyle but you do have to take a less pay because you're not putting as much hours as someone who can work 12-hour shifts a day? Don't rag on me but I'm just thinking of any type of solution we can come with the game industry.
 

jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
In investment banking, we call a 12 hour day a "working day". I was so insulted when I heard that. The implication being you aren't working if you are doing less.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Lol after reading the article, I think it's fair to say they probably aren't having a blast making the game.

It's just sad to see developers not enjoy the process of creation, it's almost like they are trying 110% too hard to make a game that can get as high of a metascore as possible without really knowing what they want.

They didn't make Uncharted or The Last of Us just to get GOTY or 95 Metascore, they did it because they are inspired to create new, exciting adventures.

Ever wonder why Lost Legacy is so much better than Uncharted 4? Because it was truly inspired. It's not an Uncharted 5 or something overly ambitious, it's just a unique project that the team really feel like trying, and it end up being really good cause there's no huge pressure or expectation to mess up with the creative vision. They are enjoying their time with the project and it shows.

Look at Doom Eternal, the devs are literally geeking out over their game, talking about how it absolutely blows Doom 2016 away and how they are literally making excuses to go to the office just so they can play the game. The creative director even talks about how he is playing Sekiro and it's like his favorite game ever. The whole team is just having a total blast. Even the engine tech guy is like ''1000 FPS son'' cause he is just so excited about the tech in their new engine. It's awesome. It's like a team of passionate nerds.
 
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TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
When you have 100 people saying, "Hey, we're only working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, outside of emergency situations, and if we can't have that you're going to lose 100 employees," you have much more room to negotiate than if you had 10 people saying that. Unions are about collective bargaining and if the film industry has unions that aren't in negotiations for different hours, that's on them.
I'm aware of what unions are for. I'm in one. But the point is you're not going to change the hours in the film industry. Going to that format would take too long and cost far too much money for the studios, at a far reduced output level. From the outside looking in, it's clear the game industry is pretty similar in that regard.

Not every industry is built to be a 9 to 5 or provide a ton of free time for an amazing social life. Not saying it can't be a bit better than it is, but people typically know what they're signing up for with these industries. No one is forced to go into them. Pretty much any skill used in the film or gaming industries can be applied to a different industry with better work/life balance if that's what the person desires.
 

Modest_Modsoul

Living the Dreams
Member
Oct 29, 2017
23,543
Next game getting bigger in scale, bigger in scope, bigger in budgets, bigger ambitions, etc.

Of course the crunches getting crazier...
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
Tough read. Especially as I currently wish I merely had to work 12 hours today at my gig.

Shit's rough to get through.
 
Young people can, for a limited time, push themselves inhumanly hard before burning out. The stories from the industry always seem to boil down to studios taking advantage of new people to manipulate them into abusing themselves for the product as a part of studio culture.

It's surreal this degree of churn has been sustained for as long as it has in the AAA industry.

The crazy thing is, outside of a "woah, that's cool that they thought of that!" moment when shooting the sack and watching the grain pour out, is that the detail is then forgotten since it isn't a gameplay mechanic and it's not as flashy as some other moments, and it has no story relevance. I feel like some games get into the weeds with details when no one is really asking for it. What's the point of spending so much time on individual eyebrow hairs? It just feels like a waste of resources, time, and ultimately these things go unappreciated by 80% of your consumers who are there for the story or the gameplay. It feels like these devs are killing themselves (and their marriages, and their social lives) over almost nothing.

The triple-A industry has come to treat games like exotic sports cars. They brag about every rivet in the machine being a premium luxury item in order to hype the product to ludicrous degrees. This is an industry that demonstrates new video cards by zooming into a character's nose and counting the hairs.

But so much of this stuff really doesn't make any significant difference to the end product. I imagine, however, that the people making the games have themselves been whipped into the mindset of believing that their studio has to beat everyone else's new ray traced grass by 10% fidelity or they've failed as creative pioneers.

In the end all of it just seems to be in service the tacky marketing of the industry in order to create front-loaded sales of the newest and most expensive hardware and software. Follow the money; it always boils back down to that.
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,125
Austin, TX
that was pretty tough to read tbh. big yikes on a lot of that

i remember after finishing uncharted 4, i hoped the devs went on vacation for like 6 months after shipping the game. i couldn't believe the production values of that game. i really don't recall feeling that way for workers behind commercial art ever in my life. not for another film, game, anything. it's a weird feeling.
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,239
I do wonder why the gaming industry is getting such focus with crunch in particular.

In IT it seems to be standard to be doing 12 hour shifts (paid for your standard 8 hours only) in order to keep on top of your workload.

Edit: FWIW I think crunch is wrong in any industry, just wondering why games specifically has focus recently.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,045
An other one... :/

70% of people now had Uncharted 4 on their resumes, and had the leverage to move to an equally well-paying studio that wouldn't kill them. Just like I'm sure a lot of people will ditch now that they can say they've made TLOU2

I'm really confused by this post.

Are you trying to say that these people seeked to be employed by Naughty Dog, just so that they could put a game on their resume and immediately leave afterwards? All 70% of them and potentially even more after TLOU2?
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
834
So the solution would be that SOny or Naughty Dog demands that people leave after 8 hours each day?

I'm all for it but i don't believe one second that it'll be like that one day. Even unions wouldn't solve that because the developers feel like it's normal to work this hard (because everyone else is doing it).
I think you're wrong about unions. I think unions could absolutely negotiate for that (good unions are stronger than you think). However, you're probably right that most devs who've internalized that this is normal won't ever unionize in the first place.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,366
Maybe try reading the article?

How come some people are able/willing to go after 8 hours?

Maybe try having common sense?
It's not really a choice when your job safety is on the line and theres peer pressure for you to be a "team player" and "not let your coworkers down"

I worked at HR before. Theres a reason why i was the one relaying these lies to people.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
I do wonder why the gaming industry is getting such focus with crunch in particular.

In IT it seems to be standard to be doing 12 hour shifts (paid for your standard 8 hours only) in order to keep on top of your workload.

Edit: FWIW I think crunch is wrong in any industry, just wondering why games specifically has focus recently.

you probably just spend more time on gaming site for fun

it's endemic across many industries
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,078
Gaithersburg MD
This is why I really hate worship of specific leads or producers or whatever. It makes people view games as being developed by some tortured artist that slaves away on their game to make it perfect when in reality it is some asshole at the top causing many people below them to suffer because they don't know how to manage properly.

People view it much differently when one person works long hours for their own thing versus a team of people being overworked.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,326
No one should be allowed to be in the studio for more than 8 hours, even if the employees want to stay and work.
The article reads like the peer pressure is enormous at Naughty Dog.

It's just culturally self-reinforcing. Yeah, you can technically go home at 5pm if you want, but everyone else on Team X is staying late to work on Component Y. Do you want to be the person who goes home at 5pm in that scenario? Not just for the potential social opprobrium (from your coworkers as much as management), but also in the knowledge that by doing so, those people are going to have to pick up your "slack"?

This is why it's always empty when studios assure the media that they have no policy of crunching, or they never explicitly demand an employee do it. If you simply allow your employees to crunch "if they want to", that's just as bad. Because the pressure to do so inherently builds up, when you're producing things on deadlines.

These studios should be mandating employees to go home at the official end of their workday, and then locking the doors behind them. If they are going to "crunch", it should be fully paid OT, completely optional, and for a few weeks at most.
 

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,667
Germany
So the solution would be that SOny or Naughty Dog demands that people leave after 8 hours each day?

I'm all for it but i don't believe one second that it'll be like that one day. Even unions wouldn't solve that because the developers feel like it's normal to work this hard (because everyone else is doing it).

I think Monolith from Nintendo said they enforce a strict time where they sent people home since sometime last year (unless I misremember the exact timing) where they sometimes have to almost drag people out.

So it works but it really needs to be enforced if you do it. After a bit of time devs that dont know it any other way will probably adjust just fine.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,812
England
On The Last of Us II, this became a never-ending cycle. "You feel obligated to be there later, because everyone else is there later," said one former developer. "If an animation needed to be put in and you weren't there to help the animator, you're now blocking the animator, and they may give you grief. It may not even be spoken—it may just be a look. 'Man, you totally screwed me last night by not being here at 11 p.m.'"
Uggghhhhh, I'd never even thought about it that way. I'd always imagined it was driven by a desire to show you're just as hard-working as everyone else, but nope, this makes total sense - it's just as much, if not more, due to the guilt you'd feel from letting people down and stopping the dev process because you dared to spend an evening with your family. Fuck this work culture.
 

Marble

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
3,819
I can't think of many industries that do 12 hour days, 6 days a week for 18 months at a time.

I know a lot of people that work more than 8 hours a day. I don't approve it, but a lot of people have their professional and private lives intertwine with each other. I have my work email setup on my phone and if I have nothing to do or just feel like it, I can login at home and get some extra work done. I don't mind. And in a lot of cases it's by choice. In return, I can sometimes start later or go home earlier without having to sacrifice time off hours. I know this is not the same, but there are a LOT of people that don't have a 9-5 mentality and immediately run out of the office at exactly 5 PM.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,545
I'm really confused by this post.

Are you trying to say that these people seeked to be employed by Naughty Dog, just so that they could put a game on their resume and immediately leave afterwards? All 70% of them and potentially even more after TLOU2?
No, I'm not saying those people all took the job for the resume boost. But it doesn't seem like a massive stretch to me that someone would figure "let's just see the project through, and then leave". Obiously that's not all of them, but this doesn't seem like some far fetched scenario to me lol.
 

Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
How the fuck is a turnover rate that high acceptable IN ANY FUCKING WORK?
Even if we leave all the "health" and "work-life" problems, even from a structural point of view (aka money which is what sadly the corporations care about), that is a ton of learning hours thrown to the trash can and time that will be needed to improve the newer employees.
That's the corporate structure of America at large now. Work on minimum viable employees, overwork the ones you have, swap in new blood when it doesn't work out.

It took my boss leaving for the corporate heads to finally realize that our job in tech is doing more than what's necessary and doing other departments jobs and NOW they want to try to make counter offers. The entire business structure of America revolves around under paying you so that you have to negotiate and threaten leaving to get better pay, and even then you'll be expected to do more than what's required or be expendable.

I have a story about a COO who though you could you just "hire temps" because he'd rather have us spend hours every week training yet another temp because, spoilers, the temp services don't provide hard workers and the tech industry isn't something you just..."do" than actually spend money on full time employees.

The entire system is rigged so that if you take time off it's a knock against you, if one person is out it forces an entire team to stress, and they run skeleton crews in tech majority of the time until a disaster strikes in which they throw bodies at it until it disappears (for now). The biggest reason that kept me pursuing art and game dev as a personal aside rather than a full time job was knowing I'd be making less than what I make in other tech fields while working harder and longer hours in game dev, all for the "hopes" of a payoff and not losing my job after the game ships.

Turnover to the people at the top means literally nothing, because to them (especially in a high demand field like gaming) there will always be another body they can throw at something to make a minimum viable product. Even if the product is "great" when it comes out, it won't matter because they've already destroyed any framework built over the production of their last product by ditching structure and trained employees for the sake of saving a buck. That's just how it be.

I know a lot of people that work more than 8 hours a day. I don't approve it, but a lot of people have their professional and private lives intertwine with each other. I have my work email setup on my phone and if I have nothing to do or just feel like it, I can login at home and get some extra work done. I don't mind. And in a lot of cases it's by choice. In return, I can sometimes start later or go home earlier without having to sacrifice time off hours. I know this is not the same, but there are a LOT of people that don't have a 9-5 mentality and immediately run out of the office at exactly 5 PM.
To add to this Salary is a scam. Salary is often used to promote "more money" but that typically means that you are then at the mercy of the company and expected to be on call and on the job 24/7 probably making less than you were/would have hourly.

I like doing work outside of my job because I care about my job, I check emails and respond outside because it's easy enough, but that's not what's being discussed here. This is keeping tons of people in offices doing strenuous work at a pace that's inhumane. It's not like clerical or office work. I'm not saying my job or your job is "easy" but there's a big difference between typical jobs and game dev.

That's also ignoring that if anyone DOES leave at 5 they're typically considered "bad employees." More than one occasion someone's work ethic is questioned for "daring" to go home on time.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
You're still literally putting the blame on people getting the games. Tons of these people aren't even in the community and just have a ps4 and get some of the big new games.

Am I supposed to feel bad for also putting the blame on people getting the games or something, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't mind clarifying that Naughty Dog also sucks ass for treating their employees like this, but they're only doing it because they can get away with it.
 

FelipeMGM

#Skate4
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,012
As someone who loves to death many of their games, this was tough to read. But its important to do so, and to show solidarity to all the ones involved.

Would love to see if Insomniac's apparent light crunch approach culture could work at ND.
 

MrPink

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,298
Feels like they need to institute a cap on hours, but I wonder what the ratio of support is for the culture vs against.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,711
not gonna lie, every time someone on this forum calls ND "Naughty Gods", I cringe a bit, because their crunch culture has been known about for a while. Their games aren't the way they are because they use "wizardry" or because Neil Druckmann is a demigod - it's simply to do with how much blood and sweat the devs collectively pour into these games to meet the perfectionist standard. It's perfectly in line with the rockstar and CDPR stories about crunch. These companies are basically aiming to do "AAAA" games, and it's a crazy amount of fucking work.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
I'm aware of what unions are for. I'm in one. But the point is you're not going to change the hours in the film industry. Going to that format would take too long and cost far too much money for the studios, at a far reduced output level. From the outside looking in, it's clear the game industry is pretty similar in that regard.

Not every industry is built to be a 9 to 5 or provide a ton of free time for an amazing social life. Not saying it can't be a bit better than it is, but people typically know what they're signing up for with these industries. No one is forced to go into them. Pretty much any skill used in the film or gaming industries can be applied to a different industry with better work/life balance if that's what the person desires.
The problem with the games industry--and I can't speak for the film industry on this one--is that it's a dream job for a lot of people, and those people are 100% willing to kill themselves over it because they've been dreaming about making games since they were kids. But then they get there and realize the nasty reality of it and get caught in the vicious cycle. There aren't enough factors in the game industry to require it to be a 9am - 9pm, 6 months a year industry. Every industry has a need to occasionally have those working hours for some employees. Mine currently has something similar due to COVID-19!

It's wildly annoying to see people say, "Well just get a different job!" Because it's 100% that easy, especially if you're still a junior/mid-level employee. And some people do still wish to make games, they just want better working conditions. Nobody is forced, but nobody is forced to do anything I guess.
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,805
The crazy thing is, outside of a "woah, that's cool that they thought of that!" moment when shooting the sack and watching the grain pour out, is that the detail is then forgotten since it isn't a gameplay mechanic and it's not as flashy as some other moments, and it has no story relevance. I feel like some games get into the weeds with details when no one is really asking for it. What's the point of spending so much time on individual eyebrow hairs? It just feels like a waste of resources, time, and ultimately these things go unappreciated by 80% of your consumers who are there for the story or the gameplay. It feels like these devs are killing themselves (and their marriages, and their social lives) over almost nothing.

Naughty Dog have the reputation of being at the forefront of realistic human visuals and animations aswell as those types of tiny details you mentioned.

I'm sure at this point they feel they have to keep pushing the limits on all of those fronts. TLOU II looks like they most certainly are. It's a real shame it's coming at the expense of the health of their employees.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,487
Am I supposed to feel bad for also putting the blame on people getting the games or something, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't mind clarifying that Naughty Dog also sucks ass for treating their employees like this, but they're only doing it because they can get away with it.
This isn't a big main stream issue that people even know, so it's not like people can even be ignorant. You can't blame the average joe who doesn't read kotaku for not knowing about this crunch, the only way they would know. If anything, the delay probably has most people thinking it would ease up with them making it.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
I know a lot of people that work more than 8 hours a day. I don't approve it, but a lot of people have their professional and private lives intertwine with each other. I have my work email setup on my phone and if I have nothing to do or just feel like it, I can login at home and get some extra work done. I don't mind. And in a lot of cases it's by choice. In return, I can sometimes start later or go home earlier without having to sacrifice time off hours. I know this is not the same, but there are a LOT of people that don't have a 9-5 mentality and immediately run out of the office at exactly 5 PM.
Bolded would probably go a long way to helping this problem. The issue is that, as far as we know, this is never the case with these studios. They leap from one crunch to the next without letting people go home early or start later. They're "expected" to work similar hours all the time.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,557
In investment banking, we call a 12 hour day a "working day". I was so insulted when I heard that. The implication being you aren't working if you are doing less.
As someone also in IB, a 12 hour day sounds pretty cushy.

I dunno, I read these stories, and it's like...I suppose on some level it's bad, but also...doesn't sound terrible?
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,996
Could they hire more staff but lower pay. This will allow for less working hours and it's more comfortable lifestyle but you do have to take a less pay because you're not putting as much hours as someone who can work 12-hour shifts a day? Don't rag on me but I'm just thinking of any type of solution we can come with the game industry.

dude lmfao
 

Deleted member 5322

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,523
Am I supposed to feel bad for also putting the blame on people getting the games or something, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't mind clarifying that Naughty Dog also sucks ass for treating their employees like this, but they're only doing it because they can get away with it.
The article paints a pretty clear picture that internally the problem will sort itself out by necessity since more and more people are quitting this studio with each successive game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
This isn't a big main stream issue that people even know, so it's not like people can even be ignorant. You can't blame the average joe who doesn't read kotaku for not knowing about this crunch, the only way they would know. If anything, the delay probably has most people thinking it would ease up with them making it.

I guess so, but it really does deserve to more main stream attention. The state of the games industry is hardly ever discusses outside of PR fluff pieces. :(
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
The Naughty Dog philosophy of "People crunch on our games because they want to! Everyone loves working here!" always struck me as incredibly unhealthy and misleading. If everyone loves working there so much, then why is there so much turnover?

I am increasingly aggravated by the idea that not wanting to do crunch means you don't care enough about your work.
I think both things can be true. Newer hires are probably stoked to be at Naughty Dog and will put in the work, but when it becomes clear that the treadmill never ends they get burnt out and want to leave.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I'm really confused by this post.

Are you trying to say that these people seeked to be employed by Naughty Dog, just so that they could put a game on their resume and immediately leave afterwards? All 70% of them and potentially even more after TLOU2?

Yeah I don't get it either, If that's really the case then it shows that Naughty Dog is more of a brand than a team.

It's kind of like ''Yeah I used to work at Microsoft, f*ck that place but still, I used to work at Microsoft.''