Even the games media people, are just as bad.
Of course he fucking won't
Because they've replaced their own personalities with the fav corporations.
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Jason Schreier: "a CDPR dev told me recently that they'd just clocked a 100-hour week."
- Thread starter Meelow
- Start date
I always knew Kyuuji had an agenda with that transphobia post, why can't you just let the devs celebrate their game for once? /s
Bingo card for you:
Damn I'm filling this up rather quickly in the first few pages...
OK my bad (if a little confusing) but I really would like some answers to my query!
Oh it got refined and then we hit double bingo a couple pages ago. Truly iconic.
We did it everyone! We got DOUBLE bingo! Great job!
What's it going to take for this level of "crunch" (abuse) to stop? Is someone going to have to die before those in power say no more? I've been in combat zones on the other side of the world and even there I wasn't doing 100 hour weeks. I hope the employees get a substantial piece of the game's profits because this goes beyond being justified by salary.
Errr i don't know who is saying that, but maybe you should both should try to go back a while, to when Jason got into a small argument with ND and SM devs on twitter.There were a lot of people bashing Jason when he called out ND because of their crunch culture.
I'm not trying to troll here but asking an honest question:
Why exactly does crunch happen in gaming so often and, seemingly, so consistently? Is it a matter of shipping a game that is fundamentally broken or executing a specific vision that a lead or producer just won't relent on?
I've had my fair share or late nights at the office prior to big events but even then there's always been a point when we can't 100% finish prior to a deadline when we just saw, okay, we've done all we can (I've been in marketing/events for the past 7 or 8 years now, FYI).
Why exactly does crunch happen in gaming so often and, seemingly, so consistently? Is it a matter of shipping a game that is fundamentally broken or executing a specific vision that a lead or producer just won't relent on?
I've had my fair share or late nights at the office prior to big events but even then there's always been a point when we can't 100% finish prior to a deadline when we just saw, okay, we've done all we can (I've been in marketing/events for the past 7 or 8 years now, FYI).
The answer to this question is an answer that people refuse to accept.
They simply cannot fathom life that isn't dictated by a socioeconomic model that is inherently based in the exploitation of resources, whether it be people or natural materials.
Crunch only stops when capitalism deems it no longer profitable.
Not sure if this post will be useful, but here I go:
As per Polish law there's a limit of 150 over hours per year per employee, unless employer's business activity revolves around health care or rescue operations.
Article on this in Polish if anyone is interested:
www.infor.pl
From my experience, the only way to circumvent this would be to hire developers as subcontractors (essentially one man businesses), not on standard employment contracts. This would also circumvent most of the strict employment law protections and benefits which cover people employed on employment contracts.
To get stuff like paid overtime, paid holidays, etc., developers would then have to sign a framework agreement on top of the subcontractor contract. How closely the framework agreement follows the provisions of the labour law (i.e. how close it is to offering benefits enjoyed by people employed on standard employment contract) is totally up to the employer. I used to work like that at an IT company (not related to games at all) and I had a lot of "standard" benefits like paid holidays, overtime, etc. but it's not standard AFAIK.
So people defending crunch at CDPR saying that everything is well because developers are protected by the formidable government institutions are saying only part of the truth. Most developers don't enjoy those protections. If a dev signed something which only allowed for 100h weekday in "theory" and as a "worst case scenario" (usually that's how such contractual provisions are sold to new employees), then such person does not have and easy way of saying no to crunch.
As a side note, this type of employment is popular here because you earn more than on employment contract (employer does not pay taxes for you, you do it and you have flexibility over how you do it, etc.). A lot of your people fall for it because they tell themselves that it's an easy way to earn more, while the risks involved are purely theoretical.
As per Polish law there's a limit of 150 over hours per year per employee, unless employer's business activity revolves around health care or rescue operations.
Article on this in Polish if anyone is interested:
Ile godzin nadliczbowych może wypracować pracownik w ciągu roku
Kliknij i dowiedz się więcej.
From my experience, the only way to circumvent this would be to hire developers as subcontractors (essentially one man businesses), not on standard employment contracts. This would also circumvent most of the strict employment law protections and benefits which cover people employed on employment contracts.
To get stuff like paid overtime, paid holidays, etc., developers would then have to sign a framework agreement on top of the subcontractor contract. How closely the framework agreement follows the provisions of the labour law (i.e. how close it is to offering benefits enjoyed by people employed on standard employment contract) is totally up to the employer. I used to work like that at an IT company (not related to games at all) and I had a lot of "standard" benefits like paid holidays, overtime, etc. but it's not standard AFAIK.
So people defending crunch at CDPR saying that everything is well because developers are protected by the formidable government institutions are saying only part of the truth. Most developers don't enjoy those protections. If a dev signed something which only allowed for 100h weekday in "theory" and as a "worst case scenario" (usually that's how such contractual provisions are sold to new employees), then such person does not have and easy way of saying no to crunch.
As a side note, this type of employment is popular here because you earn more than on employment contract (employer does not pay taxes for you, you do it and you have flexibility over how you do it, etc.). A lot of your people fall for it because they tell themselves that it's an easy way to earn more, while the risks involved are purely theoretical.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little socialist? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in Eton College, and I've been involved in numerous top-level business meetings and I have over 300 confirmed deals. I am trained in economic warfare and I'm the top investor in the entire US financial system. You are nothing to me but just another low-ranking employee. I will work your back the fuck out with crunch the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, commie. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of tech nerds across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the work, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your work-life balance. You're nearly fucking unemployed, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can fire you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in labour law loopholes, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Supreme Court and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable commie ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what capitalist retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price with your hard labour, you working class scum. I will shit overtime over you and you will drown in it. You're going to fucking die early due to the stress from over-working, kiddo.
Just business as usual for CDPR, apparently.Some broader context:
Yea fuck that.
yes
We did it everyone! We got DOUBLE bingo! Great job!
I said long hours happen in many jobs, which is true, and that it sucks. Which box is that? I'm guessing is the crunch isn't anything new box..
Take into account that you should be sleeping 7 - 8 hours to be truly healthy. If they were that takes 49 - 56 hours out of that 68 leaving anywhere from 12 - 17 hours a week to enjoy any life that they may have. And some of them even have kids and families.
Half a day per week of personal time. Inhumane.
I work in advertising here in NY and have been through some grueling long hour weeks working to hit some insane client demand, but the constant crunch in game development is getting ridiculous. In advertising, you have an ebb and flow that allows some bit of a reprieve so it can sometimes balance itself out.
The demands to create a product on the level of quality found in other mediums like film or tv is really putting a strain on employees. The higher-ups only care about meeting commitments put in place by marketing spend and holiday seasons. They don't care how they meet those commitments only that they must hit that commitment.
Most people defending this practice really have no idea what it is to constantly have to pull grueling shifts consistently. Not only that but, the pressure to output quality work while you're exhausted. It's a recipe for both a physical and mental breakdown.
And people who say "just quit" act like the gaming industry is just full of open positions ready for the taking. Companies like CDPR know what the market is like and takes advantage of that. They know that if people quit, there are plenty of others looking to get their foot in the door. So when they enforce crunch time, its not like they are doing it begrudgingly.
The demands to create a product on the level of quality found in other mediums like film or tv is really putting a strain on employees. The higher-ups only care about meeting commitments put in place by marketing spend and holiday seasons. They don't care how they meet those commitments only that they must hit that commitment.
Most people defending this practice really have no idea what it is to constantly have to pull grueling shifts consistently. Not only that but, the pressure to output quality work while you're exhausted. It's a recipe for both a physical and mental breakdown.
And people who say "just quit" act like the gaming industry is just full of open positions ready for the taking. Companies like CDPR know what the market is like and takes advantage of that. They know that if people quit, there are plenty of others looking to get their foot in the door. So when they enforce crunch time, its not like they are doing it begrudgingly.
Yea fuck that.
Indeed.
To say nothing of the unique grade of mental fatigue that software development creates. You can't do software development half awake or half paying attention; it requires full focus or things will simply not work. Imagine being forced to be that focused while hitting the moving target that is "expectations" and "project goals", after days and days of 14-hour work.
Having been trapped in this kind of toxic work cycle (although not at nearly as insane hours), you keep going because you're afraid of getting fired and having getting a bad reference that cripples your career with the only other employers you can easily imagine wanting to hire you. So you tell yourself you'll look for a job while you work, but you're so burnt out and exhausted you can't find the energy to do anything other than sleep for a few hours and then get back to it. Plus you develop a lot of crippling guilt about abandoning teammates you've grown to like, piling even more work onto their already-overworked shoulders.
All the while, the people at the top profit enormously off this exploitative bullshit. Nobody should be defending it.
I'm curious as to what job you work and do you feel like you can easily quit and get a better job?
I dunno why, but this feels like Anthem. Development wise (from what we know and saw).
Seems the game was built from scratch and done in 1-2 years in rush mode.
Seems the game was built from scratch and done in 1-2 years in rush mode.
There aren't too many journalists in this industry. Jason is one. There are a few critics and the rest are fluffers.
poor project management often times feels like the standard rather than the exception. Though I will concede that the larger in scope and complexity a project is, the considerably more difficult it will be to be able to set a proper pace that avoids excessive crunch.
*nods*
Your math is wrong. It's $1.3k, not 13k: 10% of 20 million = 2 million. 2,000,000 / 1500 = $1333.
But you're absolutely right that, if the employees get 100% of the profits of the game, split equally, which is what you considered good compensation, I too would look upon crunch a lot more kindly than I do now.
Unfortunately, that alternate universe does not exist. In this universe, employees are getting fucked for peanuts and CDPR is callously ignoring the pleas of transpeople alerting them to their harmful transphobic behavior.
There must be many good men and women screaming and crying in private.
Exploitative tactics hidden behind something like "this is a work of passion".
I _love_ my job, it is my passion. I do 40 hours weeks. I understand I am very lucky, but frankly it should be the norm.
Well for those in the gaming industry, it's a career. Jobs are easy to quit.
Fuck off with this goddamn fucking bullshit. They love what they do. This is their livelihood. They probably have families that depend on them. This is all over the industry. It's rampant. They are being taken advantage of. This is ALWAYS HAPPENING in this industry. Just fuck off
I can't believe it's still happening with all the press around how bad it is in there.
Also, fuck off with the "they should just leave" crap. I was stuck in a 60-90 hour a week job and couldn't save up to leave and genuinely just did not have the energy to look for anything else let alone interview. I was basically a zombie outside of work and that's when I was in my early 20s.
Also, fuck off with the "they should just leave" crap. I was stuck in a 60-90 hour a week job and couldn't save up to leave and genuinely just did not have the energy to look for anything else let alone interview. I was basically a zombie outside of work and that's when I was in my early 20s.
I work 200 hour weeks and love it when my boss steps on me, so I don't see the problem here. If the workers don't like it they should quit during a pandemic and become homeless, because if I don't get my game soon I'm going to throw a temper tantrum.
Publishers demand unrealistic schedules.
Management at development studios capitulate to these schedules or else they don't get the budgets they want.
These schedules already treat crunch as a given but once development actually gets underway the schedules become even tighter as unforeseen (and foreseen) problems arise. On top of that, producers and directors pepper in their own unreasonable demands, all while trying to keep the schedule unchanged. If a studio is working on multiple projects at the same time, which most do, staff are often swapped around or worse, given double/triple/quadruple duty. This especially happens with more experienced staff.
In an already volatile industry with minimal job security, the people doing the actual work on games feel like they have to submit to remain employed. Management also takes advantage of especially younger staff and their genuine desire to make good games.
This is a genuinely horribly run industry and I hope we can get unions and/or some labor law intervention.
As someone who works in the industry, this happens mostly because the workers let it happen.
What do you think would happen if the employees staged a walkout? What if they had done so, say, a YEAR into crunch? What if the entire industry did?
The consumers getting mad doesn't help much. The workers have to. Collectively.
So it's the workers' faults, but the actual choices they face come from the higher ups in the industry? What?
It's all about bad management. From posts in Reddit, it seems that CDPR management had been sitting on this project for years until they realized they have shipped the game in 2020. This has been the same with Bioware in Anthem.
It can also be attributed to company culture. If most of the senior staff and upper management believe that the only way to go is to crunch, this puts a massive pressure on the juniors and contractors to keep up if they want build a career in the industry.