Jason Kingsley: Epic is "paying through the nose" to build its store

Cleardata · Jul 12, 2019

I appreciate the frankness of his answers. But it just highlights that Epic has an unsustainable business model. Fortnite will not last forever. Their store is an embarrassment and they are cash flush. Every developer and publisher with common sense knows to grab Epic's money before the tap runs dry and the whole thing comes crashing to the ground.

SteveWinwood · Jul 12, 2019

Vagabond said:
I'm still unclear of Epics purpose and future. Their goal is to get Valve to stop skimming 30% of the revenue off top... but lets say Valve drops it to 15%. Does Epic just go "Alright! #MissionAccomplished" and close their store and act like it never happened? Is that why they're focused on taking all this money to buy exclusives, hand out freebies and try to get eyes on its store - but slow to address the shortcomings of digital stores?

And what do they benefit from that exactly? Will they stop giving away their toolkits for free?

tim "promised" they would release all their exclusives and stop pursuing more if valve changed their split

of course he only says that because he knows it's never going to happen

7thFloor · Jul 12, 2019

LewieP said:
But they are also focus a great many resources on paying to get games removed from Steam.

I did not suggest that they should scale back development on Fortnite.

They do, because they believe that the only way to grow their store is to force people to use it.
They never really cared about UT4, Paragon was their attempt at chasing MOBA money and they dumped it as soon as they realized it wasn't going to be profitable for them.
Fortnite became their attempt at chasing BR money, and it payed off big time, all while making huge profits off PUBG.
You're right that putting some of this money into UT or Paragon would probably have done more to grow their store naturally, but what I'm saying is that nothing about their behavior suggest that they would ever take that approach.

pezzie · Jul 12, 2019

I got no problems with devs who take the money. Game making is hard and the business is rough. If you can get a windfall, go for it.

I got a problem with Epic and won't be installing EGS on my PC until they change their current tactics. As such, I won't be buying any games made by these devs until they hit Steam, PS4, or Switch.

Gabbo · Jul 12, 2019

As others have said, they came straight out with it, for the money. I can appreciate that, but I won't be buying any of their games from EGS. It's just not worth it for me to spend my money on a subpar store just because a game is there.

Liam Allen-Miller · Jul 12, 2019

I've mentioned this in other threads, but having had the fortune to hear some of the numbers being paid out, you'd be foolish to not take these deals. This is "develop your next game even if this one sells zero" levels of money. Generally only in exchange for timed PC exclusivity! Keep your console release! Steam later! These deals are wildly good.

SteveWinwood · Jul 12, 2019

Coolade said:
I agree with everything you said. I guess I just gave up the fight. It's inevitable. You can't stop fortnite money. So how do you stop them? I'm not trying to wait 6 months to play borderlands 3 or a year to play shenmue 3 after i've been waiting 15 years, or wait to play control, or detroit too human on PC. They grabbed everything I cared about so its a wrap lol. Godspeed to those who can hold out. I haven't regretted caving and enjoying the games.

we couldn't have stopped microsoft from forcing gfwl either!

still struggle with it to this day!

sheaaaa · Jul 12, 2019

WarRock said:
Sure, but there's actually the other reasoning that is "this is what we usually do, with proof". It's no different than Dragon Quest games always jumping to the most popular platform (that's why 9 went for the DS instead of the PS3, for the anger of many on the internet at the time) for each entry.

If you think keeping the game off Steam for exactly one year as Klei indicates in their FAQ is anything other than Epic paying them money to do so a la every single other EGS exclusive so far then I don't think we have much else to discuss.

Dragon quest is a terrible example because DQ jumps to a platform because Enix wants as many people as possible to play the game. Games taking EGS exclusivity are staying off the platform with the biggest audience, ie limiting the number of people who will play their game.

Deleted member 21875 · Jul 12, 2019

Fair play, he's honest about the deal being about the money. It's nice to see someone come out and state the truth instead of the usual horseshit devs and publishers have been giving for going exclusive on the Epic store.

Zukuu · Jul 12, 2019

If they would only invest into their actual store front, tho.

Deleted member 45414 · Jul 12, 2019

Do you think we'll see more and more developers being honest about the moneyhat going forward, considering the cat's out of the bag already?

At this point it seems foolish to pretend otherwise, since them coming clean has a much less negative effect.

jman2050 · Jul 12, 2019

Take the money now while it's being offered, and when EGS eventually crashes and burns Steam will still be there.

Sounds like pretty simple logic to me.

Deleted member 5621 · Jul 12, 2019

sheaaaa said:
If you think keeping the game off Steam for exactly one year as Klei indicates in their FAQ is anything other than Epic paying them money to do so a la every single other EGS exclusive so far then I don't think we have much else to discuss.

Dragon quest is a terrible example because DQ jumps to a platform because Enix wants as many people as possible to play the game. Games taking EGS exclusivity are staying off the platform with the biggest audience, ie limiting the number of people who will play their game.

That was not what I meant to say, but whatever; I disagree that Klei lied or tried to spin bad faith arguments like other devs.

Olimar · Jul 12, 2019

HoLoGrApHiC_principle said:
They don't give a fuck, Fortnite is the most profitable so that's what they'll focus their resources on.

If Fortnite was so profitable, then why has Epic gone into the digital storefront business? Even they know that their biggest cash cow will run dry at some point. If they don't change direction of the company now, it will have been too-little, too-late.

Epic is in the process of diversifying itself right now much like Valve did. Have you noticed that Valve haven't put in any major resources into a big new title and yet Steam ramped up the new features over the past few years? Epic is a company that facets all business of video games with the exception of selling them until recently. They collect licensing costs for their Unreal Engine, they develop their own games in-house, and now they are to sell them.

I'm not saying that the way that they are handling themselves is right, but a wise business move is to diversify before you're strapped for cash. All it takes is one purchase to lock you in to their ecosystem... and they're trying to tempt you.

Deleted member 21709 · Jul 12, 2019

Vagabond said:
I'm still unclear of Epics purpose and future. Their goal is to get Valve to stop skimming 30% of the revenue off top... but lets say Valve drops it to 15%. Does Epic just go "Alright! #MissionAccomplished" and close their store and act like it never happened? Is that why they're focused on taking all this money to buy exclusives, hand out freebies and try to get eyes on its store - but slow to address the shortcomings of digital stores?

And what do they benefit from that exactly? Will they stop giving away their toolkits for free?

That's obviously not their goal. They are not doing this out of the goodness of their heart.

Coolade · Jul 12, 2019

SteveWinwood said:
we couldn't have stopped microsoft from forcing gfwl either!

still struggle with it to this day!

GFWL nah. wasnt attached to anything too important. If you'd like to equate the two I wish you luck.

7thFloor · Jul 12, 2019

Olimar said:
If Fortnite was so profitable, then why has Epic gone into the digital storefront business? Even they know that their biggest cash cow will run dry at some point. If they don't change direction of the company now, it will have been too-little, too-late.

Epic is in the process of diversifying itself right now much like Valve did. Have you noticed that Valve haven't put in any major resources into a big new title and yet Steam ramped up the new features over the past few years? Epic is a company that facets all business of video games with the exception of selling them until recently. They collect licensing costs for their Unreal Engine, they develop their own games in-house, and now they are to sell them.

I'm not saying that the way that they are handling themselves is right, but a wise business move is to diversify before you're strapped for cash. All it takes is one purchase to lock you in to their ecosystem... and they're trying to tempt you.

I was talking exclusively about their games; Fortnite is the only game they're interested in atm.

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

Liam Allen-Miller said:
I've mentioned this in other threads, but having had the fortune to hear some of the numbers being paid out, you'd be foolish to not take these deals. This is "develop your next game even if this one sells zero" levels of money. Generally only in exchange for timed PC exclusivity! Keep your console release! Steam later! These deals are wildly good.

I get this. And for certain types of devs, I really empathize. But I'm still not going to buy their games, so I hope that short term money was worth it to them. The longterm damage to their brand and loss of audience for a sequel may be bigger than they realize.

sheaaaa · Jul 12, 2019

WarRock said:
That was not what I meant to say, but whatever; I disagree that Klei lied or tried to spin bad faith arguments like other devs.

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

SteveWinwood said:
we couldn't have stopped microsoft from forcing gfwl either!

still struggle with it to this day!

Lol yep, or Oculus locking their exclusives to their headsets... I swear videogames are like the one place where loud public sentiment and individual boycotts actually do get results.

New Username · Jul 12, 2019

Edit: Deleted post

spman2099 · Jul 12, 2019

AJ_Wings said:
You'd think some of that money would actually be spent on the development of that barebones, slapdash piece of shit store.

This is what I don't understand... surely with that kind of money they could have added a bunch of sexy features to their store. At least they should have the basic stuff implemented by now, right?

It seems so weird that they aren't pushing that element of their store forward. Like, there must be something I am not seeing here.

Firima · Jul 12, 2019

Get paid, Jason. Get paid. It's not like all these people whining about it were going to buy your game on Steam, and now you're flush with cash by selling out.

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

spman2099 said:
This is what I don't understand... surely with that kind of money they could have added a bunch of sexy features to their store. At least they should have the basic stuff implemented by now, right?

It seems so weird that they aren't pushing that element of their store forward. Like, there must be something I am not seeing here.

They could build a *better* Steam using their own Unreal Editor. They're actually in a unique position to flank Valve in a good way. Instead they're doing the laziest anti-consumer bullshit and Tim Sweeney is making a fool out of himself in the process. It's embarrassing to watch, and I'm not sure I'd support them at this point even if they turned it around. They've poisoned the well pretty thoroughly.

spman2099 · Jul 12, 2019

Firima said:
Get paid, Jason. Get paid. It's not like all these people whining about it were going to buy your game on Steam, and now you're flush with cash by selling out.

I would do the same as him if I were in his position.

thebishop said:
They could build a *better* Steam using their own Unreal Editor. They're actually in a unique position to flank Valve in a good way. Instead they're doing the laziest anti-consumer bullshit and Tim Sweeney is making a fool out of himself in the process. It's embarrassing to watch, and I'm not sure I'd support them at this point even if they turned it around. They've poisoned the well pretty thoroughly.

Honestly, I think they should be doing both. A fairer share to developers makes them more enticing, a store front with better functionality makes them a more enjoyable to use ecosystem, and exclusives helps to encourage people to download their software and enter said ecosystem. That three pronged approach seems destined for success. However, they haven't handled everything particularly gracefully and they haven't developed their storefront to the level you would have expected them to at this point. It feels like a pretty obvious fumble to me; one that I don't really get.

Coolade · Jul 12, 2019

olag said:
If you do get it then try not bring up the whole"its just another launcher" line. Eventually all things change. Fortnite wont be as popular as it is today and thats what I think is the main motivation for Epic strong arming into the pc market place. These companies arent indestructible. Once the audience has moved on to something else they loose all the power you think they have but only if you dont give it to them now.

If you're not willing to wait, thats fine, it doesn't mean we as a whole shouldn't nor should we ignore companies when they are being assholes.

But it is just another launcher. And most peoples arguments for hating the store is going to evaporate once they complete their roadmap. So hypothetically speaking if EGS becomes near or on par with steam features then what? Is it just going to be hating the business practices? Because then i expect everyone on reset to boycott sony if they do exclusive deals with COD or GTA 6 etc for content. There's just a lack of consistency. But hey if it encourages people to save their money and stop pre ordering games and they get them on sale down the road then I am all for it. I stopped buying madden when they bought the license. But if every game I cared about goes exclusive in some way or another then I'm not going to pretend to front lol. Good on everyone else though.

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

Coolade said:
But it is just another launcher. And most peoples arguments for hating the store is going to evaporate once they complete their roadmap. So hypothetically speaking if EGS becomes near or on par with steam features then what? Is it just going to be hating the business practices? Because then i expect everyone on reset to boycott sony if they do exclusive deals with COD or GTA 6 etc for content. There's just a lack of consistency. But hey if it encourages people to save their money and stop pre ordering games and they get them on sale down the road then I am all for it. I stopped buying madden when they bought the license. But if every game I cared about goes exclusive in some way or another then I'm not going to pretend to front lol. Good on everyone else though.

Their roadmap doesn't get them close to Steam. There's no 10-foot interface. There's no controller mapping API. There's no game streaming (which recently got a huge update btw). No family sharing...

EGS's big "longterm goals" are a shopping cart and achievements.

Trace · Jul 12, 2019

Firima said:
Get paid, Jason. Get paid. It's not like all these people whining about it were going to buy your game on Steam, and now you're flush with cash by selling out.

That's really what it comes down to at the end of it. Put your game on Steam and hope someone finds your game among the thousands of games, or take a big chunk of cash that basically pays for all your dev costs up front from Epic and then anything after that is just gravy. I can't fault anyone taking Epic's cash here.

Deleted member 364 · Jul 12, 2019

Epic Games is basically sharing their fortnite profits at this point. It's actually very benefitting studios lol. But the games do need to go on to sell on the epic games store too.

derFeef · Jul 12, 2019

Firima said:
Get paid, Jason. Get paid. It's not like all these people whining about it were going to buy your game on Steam, and now you're flush with cash by selling out.

I would have. So what?
What a dumb argument. Take the money and don't care if someone plays your game?

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

Joey T said:
Epic Games is basically sharing their fortnite profits at this point. It's actually very benefitting studios lol. But the games do need to go on to sell on the epic games store too.

Yeah this is the whole reason why many of the biggest games are free to play. At some level of scale, "engagement" is more valuable than the one-time sale price. Funny then that Epic is mainly targetting single player games for EGS exclusivity.

Demacabre · Jul 12, 2019

"Don't worry about those whining consumers. Sell out." It's a glorious day on Era. :/

Deleted member 56306 · Jul 12, 2019

hydrophilic attack said:
jesus

take a step back and reflect

gaming storefront exclusivity is not, in fact, comparable to actual criminal activity

You should see all the comparisons of Sweeney and Trump... Like buying exclusivity is comparable to enacting white supremacy (even more so) and caging children. It's impressive, honestly.

ChaosZeroX · Jul 12, 2019

I'd honestly be happy to download the Epic Store, but it sucks,

Dust · Jul 12, 2019

To be honest, If I was a dev and a nice truck full of money parked in front of me with Sweeney behind the wheel, I would probably take it. Money is money, this industry is fickle as fuck.

Deleted member 13798 · Jul 12, 2019

The honesty is really refreshing.

It's also interesting to think about how this is going to impact Epic long-term.

ZugZug123 · Jul 12, 2019

Nice to see an honest dev comment on exclusivity with EGS, not the usual BS "it's best for our fans too". As long as Fortnite makes millions a day, this will be their MO.

Now hire someone other than the Steam Spy guy to be assigned to work on the store, Timmy!

Deleted member 11008 · Jul 12, 2019

Tommcatt said:
You should see all the comparisons of Sweeney and Trump... Like buying exclusivity is comparable to enacting white supremacy (even more so) and caging children. It's impressive, honestly.

What? Nobody say that. I have seen people here comparing Sweeney with Trump in how both say bullshit and how likely they both believe in their bullshit claims.

Deleted member 56306 · Jul 12, 2019

asagami_ said:
What? Nobody say that. I have seen people here comparing Sweeney with Trump in how both say bullshit and how likely they both believe in their bullshit claims.

The problem is comparing them in the first place. I'm not saying people said those things exactly.

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

Dust said:
To be honest, If I was a dev and a nice truck full of money parked in front of me with Sweeney behind the wheel, I would probably take it. Money is money, this industry is fickle as fuck.

Probably true, but it's not like this money is available to every struggling indie dev. Most of the games people are mad about going exclusive are at least AA. You can't tell me the epic payday for Borderlands3 and Outer World's were make or break for the publisher.

I just see the net result as bad for PC as a platform. Ill buy those games and Control for PS4, despite recently upgrading my PC.

SteveWinwood · Jul 12, 2019

we can no longer compare anything to anything else

Deleted member 56306 · Jul 12, 2019

SteveWinwood said:
we can no longer compare anything to anything else

Sure.

thebishop · Jul 12, 2019

SteveWinwood said:
we can no longer compare anything to anything else

What's the big deal? Stop being a crybaby and embrace the Epic Store. Competition is good and you don't have a choice.

Tovarisc · Jul 12, 2019

Tommcatt said:
The problem is comparing them in the first place. I'm not saying people said those things exactly.

Both of them show plenty signs of narcissistic personality... 🤷‍♂️

AcademicSaucer · Jul 12, 2019

That Fortnite money is trickling down

Dust · Jul 12, 2019

thebishop said:
You can't tell me the epic payday for Borderlands3 and Outer World's were make or break for the publisher.

Probably not, but there is also not very much reason to not take the sweet cash.
Borderlands 3 will sell on Epic and will later sell on Steam, it's a given.
OW is more of an offset thing, where they have given them enough money to create a safety net for lost initial sales from Steam.

The whole practice is kinda new to PC gaming and I agree it's not exactly pretty from a consumer standpoint, but I get accepting the cash.

hydrophilic attack · Jul 12, 2019

SteveWinwood said:
we can no longer compare anything to anything else

i mean it's ok to make comparisons, but if someone compares game storefront exclusivity to crimes that kill children, they come off as downplaying the latter, and look like massive crybabies that it's impossible to take seriously

caylen · Jul 12, 2019

LewieP said:
Still amazed that they have nothing even close to resembling an answer to the question of "If a game is on Epic store and Steam/other stores, what reason would a customer have for choosing Epic Store?"

They're throwing huge sums of money around to generate negative sentiment from their target audience.

Edit: and what happens when the fountain of money dries out? They've trained developers to not put their games on Epic Store without a big upfront payment, and they're only attracting customers by removing alternatives.

The first answer doesn't get answered until they have a good answer for it. Like, it's a chicken and egg scenario, and Epic's working on building it up to answer that question. When I chat with publisher/dev friends, the things that Epic seems to be aiming for as a niche (beyond the % cut) are better integration with Unreal Engine (this is a *really big deal* for many developers!), experience & relationships with first party/crossplay stuff (Valve is fasttracking building up their muscle here too though) and a curated store (Epic doesn't want to be a storefront/cdn for all devs/games). I think Epic hasn't done a terrific job of explaining how that benefits customers though, among other things, so we'll see if that changes.

When/if the fountain of money dries out (more realistically if history teaches us anything: there will just be less exclusives, but higher profile ones), they'll use the install base & % cut to incentivize devs and publishers to go Epic, like they've been saying all along. I think a more valid question is "how long will this runway be before critical mass of EGS being self sustaining?" - and honestly, it seems like a 2-3 year campaign more than a first year kind of thing, and Epic absolutely has the money to keep that runway lit.

SteveWinwood · Jul 12, 2019

hydrophilic attack said:
i mean it's ok to make comparisons, but if someone compares game storefront exclusivity to crimes that kill children, they come off as downplaying the latter, and look like massive crybabies that it's impossible to take seriously

... no one did that

big difference between that and saying hey look these two bozos who are both full of themselves and lie on twitter

mercenar1e · Jul 12, 2019

When Epic first started its store front so many people on here said the revenue split would drive prices down for consumers. When is that happening fellow babies? Never. Steam should just stay firm on the revenue split because at some point Epic won't be able to continue money hatting publishers.

Jason Kingsley: Epic is "paying through the nose" to build its store

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