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Japanese devs' obsession with child/child-like characters trope and how problematic it is
- Thread starter Kaivan
- Start date
In my personal opinion, it's worse when they try to pull the "I know I look, talk, and act like an eight-year-old child, but I'm actually a thousand years old, so it's okay for the game to show me in an outfit that makes me look like I'm wearing lingerie and constantly show close-ups of my chest and butt" card. When the game does that, it is knowingly and deliberately winking toward the kind of people who get off on the depictions of children in sexualized situations.
This has to do more with Otaku being the only additional audience most games have after teenagers, as it is look down upon for adults to continue playing console games. All these fanservice games, like Neptunia and Senran Kagura, are low sellers, they aren't popular with the general audience, and would die without the few whales that are Otaku.
maybe not that extreme an example, but there are plenty of people in real life who are 18 for example but look younger than that. particularly for asians
It's actually the opposite in a lot of cases. For this kind of stuff the target audience is small but has a lot of big spenders, which means that developers essentially need to play to the whims of what little audience they have, if they don't then they go out of business. (If you are now thinking that perhaps it would be better that they went out of business then, you wouldn't be wrong)
Nowi is way worse than say Ann from Persona 5. (doesn't look completely adult, but it was the best example I could think of atm)
It just speaks to how difficult it is to talk about these things, haha.
I think this is multilayered, its not just pedophilia everywhere
In Japan theres a lot of people who see their high school years as the last time they can be adventurous and see life as full of possibilities before they become boring adults and become salarymen/women, thats why you have so many games and anime that focus on that part of your life, because it sells that idea very well to a lot of people, either the "im in high school and this speaks to me" or "ah this takes me back to when life was full of possibilities"
Then you take the popular art styles in Japan, its very stylized so naturally features are softened and create a younger look. This is everywhere in Japan, even in signs and official government stuff. If the "default" art style is already pretty stylized then it will diverge to other more extreme stylizations in either direction. One sude is JoJo and the other sude is Madoka. None of this has to be necessarily driven by sexual intent.
The problem is that, when it is, it doesnt take that much work to paint everyone with the same brush and seeing how Japan treats legal pedophilia cases its pretty hard to give a lot of benefit of the doubt.
Like, for me I see the characters in Etrian Odyssey and think they look amazing, charming and cute but for somebody else it's fap material and oh god, wtf
The former is...real weird, but ultimately I don't know anyone's jerking it to canonical ages - they're super arbitrary numbers most of the time.
Anything that criticizes anime / Japanese culture always gets buzz on this forum.
Legit thought she was older, including the other two Paine and Yuna.
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It's problematic for you, but it isn't problematic for them. That's the key disconnect here. "Youth" is absolutely seen differently in Japan than it is here - far more than just a beauty standard (which it is in the western world to a less extreme degree as well), it's the embodiment of life compressed in a few adolescent years. There is a reason why "high school years" is the primary anime setting since afterwards you are expected to be a work drone who is busy 9am - 9 pm 6 days a week and dare you to take a vacation. Sadly the problem is so deeply rooted in Japanese society it has to change there before we can hope to see any change in games and anime.
I think the OP may have accidentally started 2 different conversations. One being "Japanese games feature tons of children" in which case yeah that's already been responded to with teens and kids are the demographic. The other being games that seek to sexualize minors which seems to be the talking point in this thread but I'm not sure if it's what the thread is about given the characters posted in the OP?
Echoing some sentiments ITT, I was always under the impression Rikku was older while Yuffie just always came across as a mischievous dork.
And her getup always seemed a bit slapped together. At any rate, fingers crossed Nomura ups her design in the remake.
And her getup always seemed a bit slapped together. At any rate, fingers crossed Nomura ups her design in the remake.
The character artist for EO has drawn (and maybe continues to draw) hentai involving lolis. They're done very much in the same style as EO. (actually I guess EO was more done in the style of his hentai, considering they predate his work with EO)
Don't search for any of it unless you want to be put on a government watchlist.
I agree. Stil, as hackneyed as this is, I tend to think that it's one of those "we know it when we see it" kind of situations with games that cross the line from cutesy to loli (like your scantily clad child that is really 500yo example).
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I once saw in an anime podcast that the anime industry has a problem not dissimilar to the mobile gaming industry's in which only a very small portion of their audience will actually buy the DVD/Blu-Ray releases of the anime (in which they tend to make most of their production costs back) and limited editions figures and such. I suspect that the same audience is also interested in games that follow these same tropes and that's one of the reasons why it is so pervasive.
My belief is that if anime becomes more mainstream and popular with western audiences, outside of a handful of shows, that western sensibilities will start to influence Japanese games and anime more and more and over time we will hopefully see less of these depictions of underage or child-like characters. Sadly though, I doubt that this will impact smaller niche titles much unless Japan passes some law against it, but at this point that seems even more far-fetched to me.
Personally, I would like the anime industry to thrive so that we can return to the golden years of the 90's when a lot of the most popular classics were released but I fear that if the industry keeps resorting to these tropes and focused on appealing to their specialized niches, those classic 90's animes might end up being as great as anime will ever be.
My belief is that if anime becomes more mainstream and popular with western audiences, outside of a handful of shows, that western sensibilities will start to influence Japanese games and anime more and more and over time we will hopefully see less of these depictions of underage or child-like characters. Sadly though, I doubt that this will impact smaller niche titles much unless Japan passes some law against it, but at this point that seems even more far-fetched to me.
Personally, I would like the anime industry to thrive so that we can return to the golden years of the 90's when a lot of the most popular classics were released but I fear that if the industry keeps resorting to these tropes and focused on appealing to their specialized niches, those classic 90's animes might end up being as great as anime will ever be.
I don't see a problem with kids and teenagers on videogames, after all, kids and teenagers play videogames and will identify easier with characters of the same age.
A completely different issue is sexualized, young girls. I think you made a mess of OT by mixing both things that are completely different.
The first thing is not an issue at all, It is just a product of those games catering to different age demographics that skew towards kids/teens, that's the reason to almost always include characters in that age demographic. (This was the actual point of the OT isn't? why having child-like characters on Japanese games). I mean, anyone had a problem with Toon Link and Tetra in Wind Waker? I hope not, they are kids and they are having a colorful adventure (and sticking a master sword in the bad guy's forehead...)
I'm my point of view, is also Ok for teenagers having romantic relationships on videogames, since during adolescence is when most people have their first romantic endeavors, but that can be depicted nicely on the game, without need for scampy clothes and so. Something like Futaba scene in Valentine day (Persona 5), where they cuddle on the sofa and then is implied they spend the night together, and that's it. They don't need to show anything, and everything is handled fine. But yeah, on the same game Ann is treated like eye candy :(
Underage sexualized characters, that's a more troublesome topic that should be talked in a different setting than just children on videogames.
A completely different issue is sexualized, young girls. I think you made a mess of OT by mixing both things that are completely different.
The first thing is not an issue at all, It is just a product of those games catering to different age demographics that skew towards kids/teens, that's the reason to almost always include characters in that age demographic. (This was the actual point of the OT isn't? why having child-like characters on Japanese games). I mean, anyone had a problem with Toon Link and Tetra in Wind Waker? I hope not, they are kids and they are having a colorful adventure (and sticking a master sword in the bad guy's forehead...)
I'm my point of view, is also Ok for teenagers having romantic relationships on videogames, since during adolescence is when most people have their first romantic endeavors, but that can be depicted nicely on the game, without need for scampy clothes and so. Something like Futaba scene in Valentine day (Persona 5), where they cuddle on the sofa and then is implied they spend the night together, and that's it. They don't need to show anything, and everything is handled fine. But yeah, on the same game Ann is treated like eye candy :(
Underage sexualized characters, that's a more troublesome topic that should be talked in a different setting than just children on videogames.
If it looks like a child and talks like a child, I don't care if you tell me it's a 1000yold witch from hell. For me it's still a child.
Also, sexualization is bad in general, and it should be erradicated, but sexualizing minors? that shit should have several penalties.
Also, sexualization is bad in general, and it should be erradicated, but sexualizing minors? that shit should have several penalties.
Yeah this was my thought.
Not even a week ago someone was complaining that the Gleylancer reprint added "underage" girls to the cover art, which comes off as a really weird complaint when there is no implied sexuality to be found in the first place.
Like sometimes it speaks way more about the person making that complaint than the subject matter.
Friends, today is an historic day. Today is the day ResetEra deemed The Last of Us to be an anime game.
Children/teenagers by themselves are not a problem. Games like Undertale probably won't be as effective if you played as an adult instead of a kid. Ocarina of Time is literally Link losing his childhood, being forced to grow up too quickly, and wants to desperately find his childhood friend but failing, becoming the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess out of despair. You can use children as a great way to tell stories, as well as give kids their own rolemodels to look up to. Pokemon probably would not have been as immersive to me if I played as some adult.
Pedophilia is a problem, but aside from that, young love with similarly aged teenagers isn't one imo. I don't see what's wrong with two teenagers trying to make things work. It doesn't strike me as unrealistic that two teenagers can fall for each other and have it last.
And while sexualizing minors is uncomfortable for me, at the end of the day I'll look past it for the actual game itself. That's not a defense, that's just me saying that I'm willing to look past it to just enjoy the game.
Teenagers are also smarter than some people give credit for. They have their own perspective that adults and very young kids don't. I enjoy seeing what dynamics can come up among these types of characters.
Trying to tie in "children in games" with "sexualizing kids" was the wrong way to go. Those are two completely different things.
Pedophilia is a problem, but aside from that, young love with similarly aged teenagers isn't one imo. I don't see what's wrong with two teenagers trying to make things work. It doesn't strike me as unrealistic that two teenagers can fall for each other and have it last.
And while sexualizing minors is uncomfortable for me, at the end of the day I'll look past it for the actual game itself. That's not a defense, that's just me saying that I'm willing to look past it to just enjoy the game.
Teenagers are also smarter than some people give credit for. They have their own perspective that adults and very young kids don't. I enjoy seeing what dynamics can come up among these types of characters.
Trying to tie in "children in games" with "sexualizing kids" was the wrong way to go. Those are two completely different things.
OP
OP
Sorry, I've been busy, and I obviously can't quote everyone. But I'd like to make something clear here, especially why I brought up the Western games comparison.
There are far too many Japanese games with little/underage girls in the cast. It's already normalized so everyone is somehow 'obliged' to include one in the cast of characters in their games to please their audience. Why I see it's problematic is because after it's normalized, the devs need to make these girls to stand out. One of the most easiest and effective way is by sexualizing them. It also leads to the birth of sub-genre of pedo games, like many have mentioned here already. This is only a thing in Japanese games, because this kind of characters barely exist in Western ones. Yes, Western games have sexualized girls too, but they're always women because children have no place in their visions. Also, I'd like to repeat myself that these games, pedo ones or not, are being sold worldwide.
More than 80% of anime being shown each cour are niche, with barely any of them selling more than 5,000 Blurays. It is very much the merchandise that help these properties to continue, and in that sense western fans are lacking in that front. You only need to look at gacha games where we are lucky to even put 10% of revenue. You are right about stream sells being a new source of revenue, but unless it changes the two biggest markets are China and Taiwan, who very much like fanservice shows. At best you can expect streaming sites like Netflix cultivating a niche of new shows aimed specifically for adults, instead of the market changing.
Creepy sexualization of minors is absolutely one of the weird, gross albatrosses hanging around the neck of Japanese media. It's honestly a little upsetting to think how desensitized I've gotten to some of that stuff, giving a lot of it a shrug and a roll of the eyes, at most. But yo, shit's gross. The number of times I've had to preface a recommendation of something with caveats about that kind of stuff is concerning.
However, conflating "there are children in these Japanese video games" with "all of these child characters are sexualized and problematic" is perhaps a bridge too far for me. If we want to take a wider view on that stuff and ask why there are so many underage characters in Japanese media, it's... maybe a little late for that discussion in this topic.
However, conflating "there are children in these Japanese video games" with "all of these child characters are sexualized and problematic" is perhaps a bridge too far for me. If we want to take a wider view on that stuff and ask why there are so many underage characters in Japanese media, it's... maybe a little late for that discussion in this topic.
This is an absolutely weird slippery slope. "Japan has children in games, which leads to pedo games". Wtf?
Western games reflect their social contexts. I argue they're far too homogenized with the demographics they represent in games, almost always middle aged men. We could stand to have more western games about kids and teenagers, one reason something like Life is Strange is so refreshing.
Inasmuch as your argument is "kids shouldn't be sexualized" I'm with you. "Why are kids in Japanese games", though? Why the fuck not?
Whenever I have seen games like this on Steam it has creeped me out, not going to lie, it concerns me that people try to defend it as well because it makes me wonder what their motivations are.
I really think sexualisation of minors is abborant and disgusting, no excuse for it whatsoever and it certainly seems like these games are trying to promote that kind of thing, in some cases it is blatantly obvious they are.
I really think sexualisation of minors is abborant and disgusting, no excuse for it whatsoever and it certainly seems like these games are trying to promote that kind of thing, in some cases it is blatantly obvious they are.
More than 80% of anime being shown each cour are niche, with barely any of them selling more than 5,000 Blurays. It is very much the merchandise that help these properties to continue, and in that sense western fans are lacking in that front. You only need to look at gacha games where we are lucky to even put 10% of revenue. You are right about stream sells being a new source of revenue, but unless it changes the two biggest markets are China and Taiwan, who very much like fanservice shows. At best you can expect streaming sites like Netflix cultivating a niche of new shows aimed specifically for adults, instead of the market changing.
That's a somber chart...
At least Devilman Crybaby was interesting.
If anything, it's the other way, anime is not going to get mainstream for something it isn't. It'll be highly targeted market since that's what keeps it alive.
*Looks around nervously* Guys... should we tell him?
There's some children in western games too lately, in major roles. GoW, LiS, TLOU come to mind, and none of these games are negatively effected by the presence of children in my opinion, if anything more children would be more welcome change to Western game development too.
I don't think it still naturally follows that having young children in games leads to pedo pandering. If anything, the existence of pedo pandering retroactively makes the child characters suspect.
The sexualization of minors is what colors the impression.
Like, I get uneasy when an young anime girl does the "big brother" routine and that's mostly harmless or it should be but there was this period where incest anime was in vogue and now this innocuous action looks sinister.
I think your point is founded on an unclear assumption. Namely this...
There are without a ton of Japanese games that have underaged girls in them. And any instance of these girls being sexualized without a doubt exists specifically to appeal to an skeezy audience that enjoys that kind of stuff.
However I do not necessarily agree with the idea that the non-sexualized ones are put there specifically out of "obligation", at the very least not the kind of obligation that you might be thinking of.
For example: I don't think a character like Yuffie in Final Fantasy VII exists because the team thought that they needed a little girl to appeal to the audience that loves little girls but rather because the party in VII is already a diverse group of characters from old dad, even older not dad, tiger dude, cat, you get it. And at that point it would be normal for there to be a 16 year old girl in the mix simply because they exist.
So while one character exists as a sick perverse the other exists as part of a diverse group of characters. The former is definitely an issue that plagues lots of games but not the latter. I think it's a bit inaccurate to imply that the two types stem from the same issue of "everyone being obliged to include an underaged girl in the cast".
Hope that all makes sense.
The leap from kids in games to pedo-games is pretty ... big, don't you think?
Pedophilia is a serious topic. And seeing it discussed in such a broad fashion (suddenly children/teenagers are a problem in general), does the opposite.
It actually makes it harder to discuss serious issues if any kind of depiction of minors in game is being held to the same standards as actual child porn.
Agreed. But I think the point is that they are still sexualised when they could have been included without any of that.
That's why this discussion is so difficult in this thread. Everyone draws their own line where something is A-OK or not.
Did not really help that OP is trying to conflate two things (sexualisation and kids/teens in games) and imply that they are equally problematic which they are clearly not.
Lol - this is like these japanese games treating everyone above 25 as some kind of geriatric. Most games have male protags around the so-called "James Bond" age of 30 to 35. Middle aged is about 55.
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Possession of child pornography wasn't illegal until 2014. Actual production of it was illegal, yes. I apologize for not specifying what I meant.
Manga and anime have continued to produce material by claiming freedom of speech.
Not liking it is fine. 100% a non issue. Equating all of it to "creepy pedo-bait" is not.
I don't like horror movies, i don't equate all Horror movies to "Masturbatory Psychotic fantasy". Although there are absolutely movies in the genre that would totally merit that title.
User Banned (2 weeks): trolling
Persona 5 is literally a dating sim for adults who want to date children
Idk sometimes it's too sexualized but generally I just get the impression Japan likes cute stuff
Maybe I'm ignorant
Maybe I'm ignorant
Which would make the datable adult character in the game ok?
But no, it's not.
Eh, isn't this because of the different rating boards qualifications. Both Persona 3 and 4 got a Cero B rating, which is aimed at 12 year olds and up, and Persona 5 got a Cero C rating, which is aimed at 15 year olds and up. I doubt any of these games were made with the idea of adults being the target audience.
I guess its just aimed at adults in the west, nevertheless I find the dating sim in the game very problematic. Three adults who date an underage person. We can date our teacher who we have control over given the context we know of her "maid" job. Obvs, shes also our teacher and an adult.
then if youre an adult playing this game do you condone this kinda statutory rapey relationship or do you roleplay and date 14 yr old futuba?
I'm going to start with the fact that Futaba is never 14 years old in the game.
I'm then going to ask you to stop beating around the bush and just say it straight. I'm an adult man in the west who enjoys Persona games. Are you calling me a pedophile?
It's a simple question, answer with yes or no, I don't want anything more.
The problem is ancient in anime, but the recent (10 years) explosion of Moe blob garbage is either a symptom or cause for this nonsense. The cute girls doing cute things crap and the obsession with girly innocence has been completely compromised as fetish bait.
I'm not sure about that as there is a story aspect to the relationships rather than just purely being a dating sim (you don't play out the date or itneract aside from clicking through text speech, and as backwards as the morals often are it's all character building).
But certainly, it's how a lot of fans seem to have taken to it with "best girl" arguments and the like.
Edit: for the record I ain't played 5, only 4.
I really enjoy how we feel completely fine with flat out brushing everyone whip enjoys a game with an accusation as huge as "pedophile", because of fucking tongue in cheek "best girl" style arguments that are a mainstay of anime style communities (and ignore the whole "best boy" and gay shippings that also happen with these games).
But naw, most people who like the game are pedos because they once said "best girl".