Ok, so you're gonna tell me loli isn't part of Japanese pop culture at all?
I must have been fooled by some conspiracy this whole time.
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Japanese devs' obsession with child/child-like characters trope and how problematic it is
- Thread starter Kaivan
- Start date
Ok, so you're gonna tell me loli isn't part of Japanese pop culture at all?
I must have been fooled by some conspiracy this whole time.
This is a large reason why these types of games (and other forms of media, like anime) don't appeal to me. I've found it creepy and predatory.
I agree, there's no problem here, but it's just the same kind of reasoning people will give to excuse underage characters that ARE sexualized. Developers can claim a character is whatever age they want but if they look underage that's all that really matters.
https://twitter.com/i/moments/982871512389640194
Full intro to scruffy's ACAU art if you're not familiar, it's an imagined character role swap where the younger characters are older and the older characters are younger. As it says in the description- The Adult Confidant AU is an alternate universe based on Persona 5. It follows adult confidants from the game as if they switched positions with the OG phantom thieves and vice versa. (Sojiro as the protag, Futaba as the caregiver, etc)
anime culture? sure. But not japanese culture IMO much like Marvel isn't western culture either to me. Lots and lots of japanese people don't even like anime and manga, is just stuff for kids and teens.
if you go to Akihabara then of course you'll see that crap eveywhere, but people assume manga is everywhere and everyone likes that shit. Not like I'm a japanese culture expert, but I've been there and talked with lots of japanese (to be fair it was 10 years ago lol).
Yeah I'm 31, round about 27 was when my knees started creaking and my back too. Honestly feel like my body has aged double the last few years.
Not looking forward to what 50 will be like lol
Lol, oh why am I not surprised at this terrible take? Also, you know underage gravure is a thing in Japan, right? Another disgusting side of that country.
"pop culture" LMAO. You ever looked into game or anime sales data? What you think is "pop culture" is far from mainstream.
Another major thing is the fact that for something like AoT the vast majority of the cast is/was underage, where as someone like Veronica is a one off. She is there to fill in that role of the infantile character, something extremely prevalent in JRPGs, even if not conforming to it entirely and actively subverting it. While the AoT characters are not as defined by their age individually and can be developed on a character by character basis which helps a lot along with them not being sexualized at all otherwise.
... Oh boy
Go watch the documentary "Hot Girls Wanted" if you want some perspective. This is not a Japan problem.
And consider rewording your statement
It's not a take. I clarified earlier that it wasn't a comparison
This site has U.K. tabloid levels of alarmism sometimes I swear to god
I feel like there's a lot of issues being conflated here - child characters in games, child characters being sexualized in games, explicitly teenage characters in games, teenage characters in games being sexualized in games, "technically 17 but ages are kind of arbitrary in this fantasy world" characters in games...
Like, there's a huge difference between Nowi (who is unambiguously gross), the girls from Persona (which is kind of weird and probably problematic), and someone like Rikku (who I guess is underage but, like, I always assumed was 20-something).
I think you can get to a root problem, that Japan places an unhealthy emphasis on the... I dunno, purity of youth or something? But how that's expressed ranges from "wrong by pretty much any measure" to "not to my tastes but ultimately harmless."
Like, there's a huge difference between Nowi (who is unambiguously gross), the girls from Persona (which is kind of weird and probably problematic), and someone like Rikku (who I guess is underage but, like, I always assumed was 20-something).
I think you can get to a root problem, that Japan places an unhealthy emphasis on the... I dunno, purity of youth or something? But how that's expressed ranges from "wrong by pretty much any measure" to "not to my tastes but ultimately harmless."
So, there's... another side of this issue and I feel it's incredibly relevant to this conversation: This doesn't just affect female characters and having followed a number of LGBT artists in Japan, as well being a fan of Housamo (Tokyo After School Summoners), it's a huge problem around the industry, as a whole. It's just obvious in the mainstream sense, the female characters do tend to get the most spotlight in this regards.
There seems to be an absolute disconnect when it comes to sexualization with minors and Japanese developers and artists and I'm not entirely certain why. Housamo, which is a gacha game and is incredibly inclusion with the cast of characters it has (largely started targeting manly gay and bisexual men, but started opening up to gay and bisexual women, as well as trans people as it went on), but it has a huge problem: There are plenty of sexualized depictions of minors in the game, and I'm not specifically talking about like Teenagers either. Like, young, pubescent boys.
And on to that, prominent LGBT artists that contribute to the game, have also been known to draw Shouta (don't google, it's essentially young prepubescent boys in sexual situations at times) from time to time on their twitter profiles and the like. And I don't mean just small independent artists either. Some of which have been incredibly popular among LGBT circles, western and Japan alike.
I really, really, don't know what the solution to this is. I wish there was an easier way to communicate to these people why these depictions are a problem. Unfortunately, due to my limited Japanese and not being that intertwined with Japanese circles as a result, I can't really make much headway on this discussion there. But it's frustrating when I see this, and I wish there was a way to at least begin the discussion there.
There seems to be an absolute disconnect when it comes to sexualization with minors and Japanese developers and artists and I'm not entirely certain why. Housamo, which is a gacha game and is incredibly inclusion with the cast of characters it has (largely started targeting manly gay and bisexual men, but started opening up to gay and bisexual women, as well as trans people as it went on), but it has a huge problem: There are plenty of sexualized depictions of minors in the game, and I'm not specifically talking about like Teenagers either. Like, young, pubescent boys.
And on to that, prominent LGBT artists that contribute to the game, have also been known to draw Shouta (don't google, it's essentially young prepubescent boys in sexual situations at times) from time to time on their twitter profiles and the like. And I don't mean just small independent artists either. Some of which have been incredibly popular among LGBT circles, western and Japan alike.
I really, really, don't know what the solution to this is. I wish there was an easier way to communicate to these people why these depictions are a problem. Unfortunately, due to my limited Japanese and not being that intertwined with Japanese circles as a result, I can't really make much headway on this discussion there. But it's frustrating when I see this, and I wish there was a way to at least begin the discussion there.
User Banned (1 Month): Excusing the sexualization of minors
As the debate about the characters included in the OP demonstrates. What constitutes young looking character artwork is incredibly subjective. Unless conclusive scientific evidence comes out linking a certain type of art style to real sexual abuse, Westerners should chill and stop trying to be the worldwide arbiters of what is okay for people to draw.
I honestly don't understand the trope of obligatory 10yo girl party member. Sexualized or not.
Veronica being curse to look 10 years old serves no story purpose in DQ11 other than fulfilling the trope. I honestly thought she would be restored back after a few quests.
I like how the first page is full of people nitpicking the examples instead of engaging with the actual point
User Banned (2 Weeks): Whataboutism and disingenuous rhetoric surrounding the sexualization of minors over a series of posts
Yeah, I don't agree with the Futaba example. She's only a year younger than Joker, and she isn't really treated as a kid, just a socially repressed person. I should know, as an autistic individual who related strongly to Futaba's story and attempts to learn how to act more like an adult.
Also lol @ westerners in this thread acting like they are so above Japan. Pedophilia is woven deeply into all cultures. Why do you think women are socially mandated to shave their body hair? Or you can look at two of the most famous movie directors ever, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, talk about how Indiana Jones having an underage relationship is so exciting and enticing:
https://www.comicsbeat.com/indiana-jones-child-molester/
Also lol @ westerners in this thread acting like they are so above Japan. Pedophilia is woven deeply into all cultures. Why do you think women are socially mandated to shave their body hair? Or you can look at two of the most famous movie directors ever, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, talk about how Indiana Jones having an underage relationship is so exciting and enticing:
https://www.comicsbeat.com/indiana-jones-child-molester/
Not really. When almost everyone can say that X character looks underage is for a reason. People will say "but I know's that X person that is 18 and looks 14" but they know it's an exception and that person would be classified by teen looking irl anyways.
It's not being arbiters, it's ok to drawn and create and implement child and teens in games and media. What is not ok is sexualize them. You don't need to be an arbiter to understand that.
I love JRPGs but I am getting tired of the same old teenage cast and it looks like it will never change.
It's a problem I have with the Tales series especially.
At this point western indie devs are our only hope for getting JRPGs with a full adult cast.
Games are still looked down upon as a child's past time in Japan, same with anime.
It's a problem I have with the Tales series especially.
At this point western indie devs are our only hope for getting JRPGs with a full adult cast.
Games are still looked down upon as a child's past time in Japan, same with anime.
I never said it's only in Japan, but it sure as hell more prominent in their media than anywhere else. That's all I meant.
I don't think child characters are always bad (Sue in Grandia i like 8 and she's fine), just STOP sexualising them. It's not difficult! Funny how it's almost always girls; creepy. Rikku is like the most reasonable character in FFX though, so she at least has that going for her but ruined in FFX-2.
I feel like you are taking this way too far dude. There are going to be children in media , teens. Sometimes they will be smart, often these characters will be used to aim at a demographic similar to the characters ages. This in itself is not problematic,.
The sexualization of kids and teens in media, yep problematic. Adult characters acting child like for sexual appeal, oh hell yeah. Characters who are said to be 18 but clearly are intended and sexualized in a child like manner ? Problematic and call the police.
The smart kid in the RPG is fine.
Someone really needs to investigate where and when exactly did this originate in Japan. What's the root cause for this shit?
It's just totally abhorrent the lengths they go to sexualize children and/or allegedly adult women (cough 1000 year old dragons cough) that are clearly stand-ins for children.
It's just totally abhorrent the lengths they go to sexualize children and/or allegedly adult women (cough 1000 year old dragons cough) that are clearly stand-ins for children.
If it's a step towards erasing pedophilia from media, then I don't see the problem. It's not like a game not having children in it will suddenly sever its gameplay mechanics.
Yes, but it's the same tired trick of the 5 thousand years old dragon who happens to look like a 12 years old child.
Don't Japan still has gravure books of underage girls or they banned that shit already?
Well I guess that makes it OK then and not worthy of discussions, mods please close the thread. /s
I never heard of anyone assuming Rikku was in her 20s before this thread (personally, I never saw any particular difference between her and other FF teenagers). No intents to disparage, it's just not the impression I ever got from her.
The amusing thing about DoA is that no one would ever mistake the actual 1,000-year-old dragon in the cast (Nyotengu) for being underage.
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Yeah like, yeah there are young looking adults in real life. I went to college with em. Sometimes ya'll go on a trip they need id. Some people remedy this by growing some facial hair or something, it happens right.
However , when the fictional character, looks like a child, acts like a child and is seemingly sexualized in a child like way ... like say just hypothetically a character in a fightingame/volleyball series named marie rose who if understand has child like swim suits to help with the childlike sexualization, that character might be intended to be viewed a child. Regardless of whether the dev slaps a " she's of age " sticker on their forehead.
You have to be naive or into whatever that is to think " but she's 18" fixes the greater context around that character.
I think it's more like why did it get tabooized in other countries but not there. I feel like I don't have to think too long to figure out why very young women are valued. But in other countries we've moved to make that kind of fetishism off limits in entertainment.
I'd look back to their commodification of real young women in military brothels for a kind of precedent for why fetishizing young girls is such a mainstream tendency.... I think the brothel culture is older than that too.
And that is a problem as well. Using this to handwave away this topic is pretty dumb.
C'mon really?
The driving point behind this thread has seemingly become "why is it a problem in Japan only?"
Meanwhile look at western social media, celebrities, pornography. It's the exact same thing (albeit real people instead of drawings). It's not a fair discussion to have if it's from the perspective of half the posters here
I should edit the post but I clarified it wasn't a handwave
Smart kid in an RPG is fine, but Veronica is not just that and the game exists within the context of a larger culture that utilizes a number of her traits for problematic stuff. Should she not exist at all, no, not necessarily, but there's nothing wrong with taking a more critical eye to the depiction and how that plays into the larger context of the medium. And as hanshen pointed out Veronica being cursed served nothing to the story or character other than providing the game with the child character.
No, that is fucking dumb. Being critical and contemplative of how media depicts things doesn't mean and isn't a call for said things to be banned, censored or stripped away entirely. It just means be more aware of what the things you do and how you do them mean in the larger context and why you may be doing them.
this is a strange take to me
because in real life when it comes to the law, it's the opposite --
doesn't matter what someone looks like, it only matters what their actual biological age is
I don't see how that works? Unless you're talking about actual sexualized children, which is indeed a problem that should be tackled.
I thought we had already agreed that guns in media don't actually cause kids to become more violent in real life. Why do children existing in media suddenly means pedophilia spreading?
Seems like you're projecting nobody said that. Not suprised though.
Anyway you can definitely see the same thing in the west just look at concerts ect.
Britney Spears always comes to mind when she did that video dressed as a schoolgirl.
Think she was still teenager when they shot that video. Katy Perry also. That stuff is promoted to teens and consumed by teens.
I won't be stupid enough to judge a culture by its pop culture but this stuff exists on both sides and should be called out everywhere.
The hysteria over pedophilia is really ridiculous if this is what's being suggested. Several of gaming's most famous franchises star children because that's one of the main demographics for gaming. I would assume a lot of us on this forum started playing games as kids and related to child protagonists like Link and Pokemon Trainers. You might as well tell Nintendo to retire half of their characters then.
I wish more people would understand this in these kind of discussions...
What is the difference between 14 year old Instagram models who post pictures in bikinis with tons of Photoshop and makeup versus underage gravure models?
Yes, Japan has a deeply rooted pedophilia problem. It isn't exclusive to them though, and it's ignorant to act like other countries have "moved on."
Yes, Japan has a deeply rooted pedophilia problem. It isn't exclusive to them though, and it's ignorant to act like other countries have "moved on."