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James Gunn confirms on Twitter that previous Marvel shows are not part of the MCU
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
2. There's just one leaf of a random tree that fell down slightly differently in the Netflix MCU, hence the different universes.
Yeah, the idea is that, just like JJJ, a past actor can take the role again without being the same character. Alt-realities and all that.
The answer to both your questions is that continuity is an illusion, built movie by movie. So there had been no confirmation that there was an intended continuity from Netflix to the MCU (clearly there was in the other direction). But none of the movies *exist* in a universe-- they just imply and construct the illusion with references. The Netflix shows all reference each other, the MCU all references itself, the Netflix shows reference the MCU but not the other way. If they included those characters in Infinity War, then they would have supported the illusion that there was one coherent world for both sets of stories. Since they didn't the illusion is weaker, and they will probably outright contradict the Netflix shows eventually, breaking it altogether. Then the headcanon of "alternate timeline" kicks in. Or maybe the next Spider-Man movie will make that a concrete canonical explanation.
It was one way. The shows referenced the movies, the movies never acknowledged the shows.
This. People are too hung up on what is/isn't canon and can't let these series stand on their own.
Yeah
For years I've compared it to a waterfall, things from the movies flow down to the shows but they never flow back up.
I think the closest thing people tend to cite is the Helicarrier in Age of Ultron is something discovered on Agents of SHIELD ahead of time.
So I think it's fair to say the shows take place in the same universe as the movies, but not necessarily that the movies take place in the same universe as the shows, if that makes sense.
Hopefully this means James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender will be kept around. They'd both be in their late 40s or early 50s before they showed up in the MCU anyway.
so that one leaf initiated a butterfly effect? is that what you're saying?
when you say illusion, do you just mean a literary tactic? because the point of these references is to emphasize that within the canon, the continuity exists as one wholly. everything occurring is all in the same reality. is your use of the word illusion supposed to mean it's just a shared universe when it is convenient for their storytelling?
Yes, a literary literary tactic to create the illusion of a "world" where all this stuff happens. But there is no such world. So Netflix shows attempt the illusion that they are connected to the MCU (but it's weak for a few reasons, a lack of hard references, and a different production design). The MCU doesn't attempt to connect to the Netflix shows (or AoS). Since there isn't a real world, it's all a matter of what the shows try to do (or metatextually, what creators assert).
So asking what world the Netflix shows exist in is impossible to answer. The MCU and Netflix shows assert conflicting canon.
So asking what world the Netflix shows exist in is impossible to answer. The MCU and Netflix shows assert conflicting canon.
Edit: deleted banned tweet
Now this doesn't mean Daredevil is canon, but it does seem very likely that Charlie Cox is reprising his role.
Now this doesn't mean Daredevil is canon, but it does seem very likely that Charlie Cox is reprising his role.
She also made a hint later that might imply he is using his Netflix costume.
Now this doesn't mean Daredevil is canon, but it does seem very likely that Charlie Cox is reprising his role.
Now this doesn't mean Daredevil is canon, but it does seem very likely that Charlie Cox is reprising his role.
She also made a hint later that might imply he is using his Netflix costume.
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Her content isn't allowed on Era. Has a history of alt-right pandering and racism.
(She's also not a trustworthy insider at all.)
It's crazy how quickly and radically their plans changed. AoS was still an ongoing series when we entered into pandemic lockdown just last year iirc. Never seen it tho
This site really needs FAQ with list of every entity banned from here and that is big link right there when you are making reply or new post. Getting bit silly when it feels like every another media post gets "This is banned btw" reply, and I imagine majority of here has no faintest clue what is and isn't banned source.
Last MCU tie-in stuff AoS did was Hydra things, after that they very much started doing their own thing. It's also when show really started to get praises.
Not really. That's no different than recasting JK Simmons as JJ Jameson in Far From Home.
She has? Don't think I have ever seen her content where she does. Not an active watcher of her stuff, watch the random video from time to time.
It is different.
They brought back Simmons for a cameo as an obvious new version of a character he last played 12 years prior in a film that overwhelming majority of filmgoers, whether it's diehard comic fans or casual audiences, understand took place in a different continuity/universe.
Charlie Cox played a Daredevil that was in the MCU. The entire line of Netflix series, other than The Punisher, was announced as taking place in the same continuity as the films. So having him appear again as Daredevil in an MCU film as a character he played only three years prior -- in a series that took place in the MCU -- is definitely not the same thing as the Simmons situation at all.
Truthfully, if Marvel Studios didn't want to share continuity with the Netflix series, they would recast or -- more likely -- not do any Netflix cameos at all.
My guess? If the rumor is true, they will treat it as they did The Incredible Hulk: It's canon and it happened but the events are not directly mention. And perhaps, down the line, we'll see other elements referenced or brought over like how General Ross reappeared in Civil War.
Yes, she has. (Which is why you'll want to remove that tweet.)
OP
OP
Was Stark Tower ever seen in the skyline of a Netflix show? I can't remember.
I guess in this case does it really matter or not if it's canon?
is there a list of all banned people? Would make it easier to avoid this.
No, but it was in a lot of marketing for Defenders/Daredevil etc.
Very frustrating to then have shots in the show where the tower should be but it absent. Felt like a massive bait and switch.
No, it is clearly omitted from several shots of the skyline. And yet, weirdly, it's in all the S1 posters for the first four series
No, but it was in a lot of marketing for Defenders/Daredevil etc.
Very frustrating to then have shots in the show where the tower should be but it absent. Felt like a massive bait and switch.
I remember seeing an article where they mentioned it was cut for budget reasons.
Those were dark days. Now the Avengers Tower is just one of many things in the D+ shows alongside the Sanctum Sanctorum, Helicarrier etc.
This. It's always bizarre seeing people declare canon is "ruining" fiction or as this new concept created by Disney when the idea has been around since the writing of the bible and before and those same debates have always existed like for example what should be considered Biblical canon, part of the Epic Cycle or was the much disliked at the time Telegony canon with The Odyssey are just some of these from millennias ago.
Even in the context of modern day fiction it's not even new whether it's Sherlock Holmes (to help readers know what were canon Doyle books and what was one of the many at the time unauthorised ones) or the Wizard of Oz books. Even in film, the idea of canon between works has been around since the time of Georges Méliès as A Voyage to the Moon was actually crossover of some of his characters from his previous works.
And like you said, it's a writing tool to help writers work on their or other people's fiction, whether in the form of production bibles or just a list of works to help create a form of consistently and help new writers know which works to source, it's not some monster trying to destroy fiction, it's a tool like any other. To get rid of it entirely because of some internet debates that don't effect anything really is absurd.
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That would be surprising. For a series that has a habit of changing up costumes each film, I wouldn't have expected them to reuse an old costume they didn't have any creative input in.
My view is
Everything is MCU until it is contradicted. Heck, a lot of long running shows/series contradict eachother and alter canon on the fly.
There are far too many connections to just ignore
Like Fury in Age of Ultron getting the helicarrier from an "old friend", turns out that was Coulson during AoS Season 2. Fury appearing in S1 of Agents of Shield, heck they even used a Winter Soldier clip in Agents of Shield to push the plot further. Lady Sif visited in Agents of Shield and referenced Avengers. Jarvis from Agent Carter is in Endgame. Souza from Agent Carter is in Agents of Shield. Agent Carter heavily referenced Captain America. Agent Carter and the Howling Commandos appeared in Agents of Shield and the Zero Matter from Agent Carter got referenced in later Agents of Shield.
Runaways uses the same Darkhold as Agents of Shield (and the director of Wandavision says in his eyes the one Wanda has there is the same as in those shows), Cloak & Dagger crossed into Runaways and referenced Luke Cage which is then interconnected with all the other Netflix shows.
I can accept Agents of Shield branching to a different timeline when time travel got implemented in Season 5. But yeah, to me everything is counted until things counter it.
Everything is MCU until it is contradicted. Heck, a lot of long running shows/series contradict eachother and alter canon on the fly.
There are far too many connections to just ignore
Like Fury in Age of Ultron getting the helicarrier from an "old friend", turns out that was Coulson during AoS Season 2. Fury appearing in S1 of Agents of Shield, heck they even used a Winter Soldier clip in Agents of Shield to push the plot further. Lady Sif visited in Agents of Shield and referenced Avengers. Jarvis from Agent Carter is in Endgame. Souza from Agent Carter is in Agents of Shield. Agent Carter heavily referenced Captain America. Agent Carter and the Howling Commandos appeared in Agents of Shield and the Zero Matter from Agent Carter got referenced in later Agents of Shield.
Runaways uses the same Darkhold as Agents of Shield (and the director of Wandavision says in his eyes the one Wanda has there is the same as in those shows), Cloak & Dagger crossed into Runaways and referenced Luke Cage which is then interconnected with all the other Netflix shows.
I can accept Agents of Shield branching to a different timeline when time travel got implemented in Season 5. But yeah, to me everything is counted until things counter it.
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James Gunn is entitled to his opinions like everyone else. Gunn's isn't Feige and his word isn't law, so it's not a big deal to me. The Netflix stuff was always iffy and on the outside and they'd like people to forget about stuff like Inhumans, but Agent Carter and AoS were pretty clearly intended to be in the same world as the movies, and the people running Marvel and the MCU haven't really contradicted that or come out and said anything definitively, so it's whatever.
Not that I know of. For the longest time, no MCU characters was ever named, nor was the name Avengers used.
There was a "church of Asgard" in the back of one scene, and a lot of references to "Heroes of New York" including action figures.
I might be remembering wrong. I do know that there are a lot of instances where they avoid directly naming a character in ways that seemed awkward.
Canon and continuity is not the same thing. If someone tells me that the original marvel comic continuation of Star Wars isn't what really happened, I can very easily counter with the simple fact that neither the sequel trilogy or even the original trilogy happened either. They're all fictious.
It's telling that you use the Bible as a prime example of canon. Firstly, it's in the interest of organised religion that their literature is as a matter of fact interpreted as truth, not fiction. Secondly, the Bible, especially the old testament, is comprised of a patchwork of older myths and religions that was sewn together retrospecively to sell the illusion of a grand, true, narrative. A canon, if you will. But constructed by the remains of lesser religions and cults destroyed and absorbed in order to build a coherent whole.
There is probably just as strong an argument to say that the old testament God isn't the same as the new testament one as there is to claim that Daredevil is in another narrative continuity than the Avengers. The characterisation is all off, for one. The vengeful god of the old testament is a goddamn sociopath.
Continuity is absolutely a necessary tool for telling stories. Claiming that some stories are more real than others, however. That's just silly. And the ones who claim to have the right to decide which stories are "real" are in the end usually the people who had the money to be able to purchase the "intellectual property" of the artists. Not the artists themselves. it's a relatively modern phenomenon that is more a result of capitalism than anything else. Companies need to tell you that they sell the "true" fictious story. That kind of authenticity is good publicity. Who cares if we trample over Jack Kirby, Siegel and Shuster or Bill Finger along the way. The creators are less important than their publishers.
In the end, the MCU will buckle under the weight of it's need for canonicity, just like the Marvel and DC comic book universes have several times over. And that's not a problem. There is still great storytelling happening in comics that regularly disregard what came before, because canon isn't as important as some would like to claim.
I don't mind. I hope Disney incorporates them into the MCU somehow though (excluding Iron Fist).
This post gets it right.
I think the reason this becomes such a contentious issue is that (like the Bible example) people become deeply invested, in this case in the verisimilitude of the fictional world. Issues of fuzzy canonicity or continuity mistakes chip away at that investment for some people.
I am a very-long-time comics reader and yet I always found myself separate from most of my fellow fans. I love a good crossover as much as anyone, but the investment in a shared world was never the draw for me; it was the crazy places comics could go without the limitations of other media. So I never became a company loyalist (and to this day I'm aggravated by how much comes down to Marvel vs DC, and how it's jumped to movies too). I was always seeking out the odder stuff and liked it when my comics stayed in their own corner of the shared universe, more or less. In the movies, I preferred the X-Men to not cross over, for instance. But I've come to realize that for a lot of people the shared world *is* the draw for them, or at least a really big portion of it. So this comment from James Gunn gathers hundreds of replies debating the boundaries of that world or worlds.
Thanks. I've had a hard time trying to verbalise my thoughts about the matter, and started to fear I was coming across as a rambling madman, but I genuinely think it's a fascinating subject to discuss.
I agree that any controversies about canonicity comes from a love of the fiction, and in a way that is kind of beautiful. In the end, I enjoy my stories in the same way you seem to do. As their own things. And as fun as crossovers in comics can be, they are definitely very detrimental to the storytelling at times.
Regarding the X-Men, that's a great example of how canon just isn't that important. Trying to intergrate Lee and Kirbys X-Men with Claremonts, Morrisons, Whedons and Hickmans is a folly. The stories are supposedly a continuation of each other, but in reality, they are their seperate entities. And that works fine. The readers understanding of the characters and the world they inhabit is informed by previous interpretations of the characters, but the timeline alone makes it all fall apart by the simple virtue of the story being published over a time period of 60 years. The canon doesn't work, but there is a continuity, and that is enough.
Anything before Wandavision is legacy content. It's not cannon unless it's explicitly stated to be moving forward. This allows Marvel to cherry pick what they like from prior Marvel shit without feeling like they're forced to acknowledge all of it.
I thought this was made clear ages ago. I don't know why there's an 8 page thread about this. People can bicker about stuff prior to wandavision being cannon. But IMO it's completely pointless. None of it is cannon unless it's explicitly stated going forward.
I thought this was made clear ages ago. I don't know why there's an 8 page thread about this. People can bicker about stuff prior to wandavision being cannon. But IMO it's completely pointless. None of it is cannon unless it's explicitly stated going forward.
Yeah. I love to talk about it too. It took me a while to wrap my head around why I was excited by Crisis on Infinite Earths *and* why I tended to prefer stuff not emphasize the shared universe (or have one at all). Crossovers are fun! Putting all the characters in the same world so that they *can* cross over makes sense if you don't think about it too much (like why the X-Men don't help deal with that Kang time invasion that takes over NYC, for instance). But at the point where the whole starts to matter more than the parts, I lose some interest.
Just to keep this on the MCU, I still see it as a collection of individual movies (or movie series) that cross over, not one big epic story. It's pretty cool at times that they can juggle the threads well enough to bring them to a big end point like Endgame (and that's a fairly unique stunt), but it's not as satisfying to me as a great standalone movie. I'm glad they did it, it's never been done. But Endgame (and the core Infinity Saga stuff) is less satisfying to me that even individual MCU entries. That Dr. Strange's Eye of Agamotto was an Infinity Stone does nothing to enhance that movie on its own, for instance.
And then there's also the commercial aspect, which is mostly comics but also movies-- creating an ecosystem that promotes a universe-loyalty over individual stories. Sometimes it's hard to recommend something outside a person's preferred brand of shared continuity even when that something is really good. I've had people tell me they weren't interested in Watchmen because it was DC. Really? I mean, they publish it, but it wasn't until decades later that they tried to connect it to anything else. It's a standalone story! Likewise, I was a fan of the early Ultimate line which I had people tell me they didn't want to read because it "wasn't canon."
Punisher pulled off the trick of making me like it despite the fact that I'm not at all a fan of the character as he's usually depicted.
Same. It was still a bit dudebro but walked the line just right.
Agreed. I get so confused when people talk about the MCU as if the films are individual episodes in a serialized story. There are little things that are included in each film just to create some kind of tie to the other films, but they rarely feel connected to the films they are written into. The MCU is very obviously not a single overarching story, and thank god for that.
This.
Not this.
What Serebii said is correct imo. Feige hasn't said anything is not canon, and until anything is directly contradicted then it remains canon.
well this illusion is only a tactic used in the Netflix shows it seems, because the films do a good job of portraying a fictional place where everything is happening in the same place. with the Netflix shows, it seems like the illusion is only constantly being put back into place to remind the viewer that it is supposed to be same place as the other IPs.
that has to be bullshit. if some random YouTuber can add it to the skyline for free, there is no way these Netflix shows wouldn't have the reasonable budget to do it too
I don't think anyone ever thought you were coming across as a rambling madman. I agree this stuff is fascinating to discuss but I also think there is only so much jurisdiction a fan base can have in saying or establishing what is going on in these works that they are a part of a fan base for. In the subject of canon vs continuity, at least for the MCU, they kind of treat it as one in the same. The Netflix shows were supposed to share continuity with Marvel Studios' movies, hence they were supposed to be canon. But just like the discussions throughout this thread, the canonicity (and therefore the continuity) of the Netflix MCU has always been debated upon and called into question. The IPs' owners are never giving satisfying answers and thus the fan base has always remained divided.
Not really. The Netflix shows weren't intertwined with the movies at all, at most they vaguely referenced events and characters from the movies. The D+ shows are the first time the influences will go back and forth between the movies and the shows.
Is there any confirmation to this whatsoever or is it just fans' wishful thinking?