James Gunn confirms on Twitter that previous Marvel shows are not part of the MCU

[Htown]

Weren't the events of the first Avengers cited in Daredevil ? Like the enemy from the sky, the battle in Manhattan and stuff like that?

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extremely vaguely

and there were one or two mentions across the other shows, along with one minor plot point in a jessica jones episode, but otherwise the stories are totally separate

it's not like Agent Carter or Agents of SHIELD where movie characters show up in the episodes and do stuff

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If you look at the bigger picture, that's no time at all. Stories have been told since language was invented.

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Copyright has existed about as long as the printing press. As soon as people could make copies, there has been law to protect the originator.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

It has always been a one sided relationship.

Marvel shows pre D+: "Notice me senpai."

MCU: "Mariahcareyidontknowher.gif"

It's been strange how defensive people have been about the obvious connection (or lack thereof, rather) between the two, as if the shows' inherent quality is entirely dependent on being MCU canon or not. Just enjoy them regardless! TBH though Feige himself could come out and say this exact same thing and people would still be in denial.

In regards to Jarvis's actor being in EG it was an obvious easter egg to the fans of AC. I think the D+ shows will only further retcon (if you can call it that) the old shows in the near future.

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.

 

[Yopis]

Makes sense, not enough goofy jokes to be part of MCU.

 

[Sacul64]

Does it really matter? The shows were so inconsequential to the movies the only reason to watch is because you think they were good shows (highly debatable) and not because there are some hidden truths in them that influenced the greater MCU.

Spoiler

The Loki in the show is the Loki taken into custody at the end of the first Avengers. He killed coulson as far as he was aware. Mobius was not obligated to say anything about that either way.

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Spoiler

One would think that if he was pointing out Loki being a failure looser to create hero's pointing out that he failed to kill Coleson would tie into that. They chose not to and that seems to be a conscious choice to me.

 

[Karateka]

even if he wasn't that bad, 'bad' is still the adjective used to describe him.

I think there is a good chance they'll bring the character back though. The rest of the Netflix MCU characters should keep the same cast, but this is one character they need to rebuild from the ground up. Lewis Tan auditioned for the role and if he had gotten it then not only would the fight scenes have been better, but the Netflix MCU would have also had its first Asian protagonist.

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It had that in iron fist anyways with Coleen. The show still would have sucked with a different lead actor, it's probably better that shang chi is the first big marvel production with an Asian lead as it actually has a chance of being good.

 

[The Unsent]

When Spider Man slings though the portal or whatever in no way home, they'll show visions/photographs of the TV shows in the other universes, and end the debate once and for all.

 

[Watchtower]

I get that, but the other side seems to always be SO AGGRESSIVE about denying the potential for a show to be canonical.

I've read more than enough books and comics in my time to just happily suspend my disbelief and treat all of the old shows as secondary canon until something comes out and overtly contradicts them.

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Speaking as someone going the other way (i.e. non-canon until proven otherwise), I'm personally only really concerned with it in regards to fan speculation. The Inhumans are probably the biggest example - treating AoS as canon involves inheriting an entire secret war between SHIELD, HYDRA, and Jiaying's Inhuman camp culminating in its own version of Inhumanity via lacing the Earth's oceans with terrigen, which doesn't exactly jive with the rest of the MCU let alone with the upcoming Ms. Marvel show. Hell, if you wanted to be super pedantic you'd be inheriting the single-season Inhumans show as well, which basically everyone is fine de-canonizing because it was garbage.

It's a number of these iffier implementations IMO where I personally wouldn't mind redos integrating into the MCU proper which I know a lot of the fans of said shows wouldn't like. Off the top of my head, I could go for a rehash of Iron Fist, a rehash of at least Patsy Walker when it comes to Jessica Jones, and recyclings of Runaways and Cloak & Dagger.

 

[Sacul64]

Weren't the events of the first Avengers cited in Daredevil ? Like the enemy from the sky, the battle in Manhattan and stuff like that?

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The shows referenced what ever thay want, the movies have ignored the shows and Disney killed the shows. Like its as simple as that, the movies never had show tie in's the show cast did not show up at the portals in endgame, Colson is dead.

 

[Cuburger]

Agent Carter was the only show to get real two way acknowledgement, and even then, only season 1 seems like it could be treated as "canon" even though I think it's safe to say Gunn is basically correct as I doubt any of the previous Marvel shows and their events will be explicitly referenced, unlike the Disney+ shows. The level of coordination is just worlds of difference.

AoS had lots of tie-ins but I have come to understand that that happened in large part to Joss Whedon being involved on both sides and I assume the sorts of relationships he developed with other directors and writers that were able to give their writers a heads up. They were clearly not in the loop for Endgame.

I think even with Agent Carter and even if they bring back any actors, we will eventually see the Marvel make the distinction clear that for people wondering if they have to watch old shows to understand "canon" that only the Disney+ stuff will be considered truly "canon". It's not unlike the MCU comic books that are supposed to be canon. "Fury's Big Week" for instance is the one comic thing I've heard referenced in regards to the movie timeline, but I don't think it has ever played a role in the movies besides the involved movies having vague references that they are happening around the same time. I assume they are canon until they are not and the movies contradict something in them. As much as people don't want to hear it, the Marvel Television shows will likely be the same way. There won't be anytime when the shows are suddenly given the explicit blessing of Kevin Feige and confirmed as wholly canon.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

So this concerns what?
Daredevil
Jessica Jones
Agents of Shield
Agent Carter
The Punisher
Anything else?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

So this concerns what?
Daredevil
Jessica Jones
Agents of Shield
Agent Carter
The Punisher
Anything else?

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Runaways
Cloak and Dagger
Inhumans

 

[GreenMamba]

I mean most people agree that the Marvel movies and Disney+ shows will never reference them (Jarvis in Endgame being like the one exception due to previously mentioned reasons ad nauseam), so what difference would it make if they were "officially" declared non-canon?

Being 'canon' without an actual place in world building is just trivia.

 

[Deleted member 17388]

So this concerns what?
Daredevil
Jessica Jones
Agents of Shield
Agent Carter
The Punisher
Anything else?

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Inhumans
Helstrom
M.O.D.O.K.

Rejected projects with pilots:
Most Wanted
New Warriors

Things done by Fox in the same timeframe:
Legion
The Gifted

And for future reference, anything by Sony:
Silk?
Silver Sable & Black Cat?

 

[Cuburger]

Agent Carter was the only show to get real two way acknowledgement, and even then, only season 1 seems like it could be treated as "canon" even though I think it's safe to say Gunn is basically correct as I doubt any of the previous Marvel shows and their events will be explicitly referenced, unlike the Disney+ shows. The level of coordination is just worlds of difference.

AoS had lots of tie-ins but I have come to understand that that happened in large part to Joss Whedon being involved on both sides and I assume the sorts of relationships he developed with other directors and writers that were able to give their writers a heads up. They were clearly not in the loop for Infinity War and Endgame.

I think even with Agent Carter and even if they bring back any actors, we will eventually see the Marvel make the distinction clear that for people wondering if they have to watch old shows to understand "canon" that only the Disney+ stuff will be considered truly "canon". It's not unlike the MCU comic books that are supposed to be canon. "Fury's Big Week" for instance is the one comic thing I've heard referenced in regards to the movie timeline, but I don't think it has ever played a role in the movies besides the involved movies having vague references that they are happening around the same time. I assume they are canon until they are not and the movies contradict something in them.

As much as people don't want to hear it, the Marvel Television shows will likely be the same way. There won't be anytime when the shows are suddenly given the explicit blessing of Kevin Feige and confirmed as wholly canon.

 

[Dali]

Runaways
Cloak and Dagger
Inhumans

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Luke Cage
Ironfist

 

[Spinluck]

All the pre Wandavision stuff should've been delegated to being side characters. The B and C Listed Hulk into being a side character they could've done the same for some of those heroes. I will say Daredevil Season 1 was some great TV though. SHIELD and Agent Carter are i hear are good too.

 

[Cuburger]

Feige hasn't explicitly said the Marvel Television stuff isn't canon, but as far as I'm aware, he was never pushing the "it's all connected" marketing and only has ever come out to say that the Disney+ stuff is connected to the movies since Marvel Studios making them.

Gunn is basically just stating what Feige hasn't said out loud, whether he knows something more or not.

 

[Cuburger]

Speaking as someone going the other way (i.e. non-canon until proven otherwise), I'm personally only really concerned with it in regards to fan speculation. The Inhumans are probably the biggest example - treating AoS as canon involves inheriting an entire secret war between SHIELD, HYDRA, and Jiaying's Inhuman camp culminating in its own version of Inhumanity via lacing the Earth's oceans with terrigen, which doesn't exactly jive with the rest of the MCU let alone with the upcoming Ms. Marvel show. Hell, if you wanted to be super pedantic you'd be inheriting the single-season Inhumans show as well, which basically everyone is fine de-canonizing because it was garbage.

It's a number of these iffier implementations IMO where I personally wouldn't mind redos integrating into the MCU proper which I know a lot of the fans of said shows wouldn't like. Off the top of my head, I could go for a rehash of Iron Fist, a rehash of at least Patsy Walker when it comes to Jessica Jones, and recyclings of Runaways and Cloak & Dagger.

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The Inhumans show didn't even acknowledge the groundwork that was laid out in AoS, which was on ABC. In fact, most of the television shows didn't connect, crossover, or even reference each other. I think the only stuff is the Netflix stuff with itself, AoS and the Agent Carter crossover, and Runaways and Cloak and Dagger and their crossover. It would have made a lot of sense for AoS to reference and crossover with all the other shows, especially The Inhumans, but it didn't happen. So if those shows didn't coordinate on broader scale to have their own canon, it doesn't make sense for Marvel Studios to integrate all of it either.

We probably aren't going to get a "this isn't canon" confirmation from Feige, but we definitely aren't getting "this is all canon now" confirmation.

 

[OneTrueJack]

The MCU (universe, not brand) would be lesser for daredevil and Jessica Jones not being a part of its universe. They're two of all-time best Marvel productions, period.

 

[Anoregon]

The Inhumans show didn't even acknowledge the groundwork that was laid out in AoS, which was on ABC. In fact, most of the television shows didn't connect, crossover, or even reference each other. I think the only stuff is the Netflix stuff with itself, AoS and the Agent Carter crossover, and Runaways and Cloak and Dagger and their crossover. It would have made a lot of sense for AoS to reference and crossover with all the other shows, especially The Inhumans, but it didn't happen. So if those shows didn't coordinate on broader scale to have their own canon, it doesn't make sense for Marvel Studios to integrate all of it either.

We probably aren't going to get a "this isn't canon" confirmation from Feige, but we definitely aren't getting "this is all canon now" confirmation.

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I feel like it's pretty much guaranteed at this point that inhumans will never be a canon thing in the proper MCU. They were only ever an attempt by Perlmutter to have non-quite-xmen, and now that Disney owns Fox that's no longer a concern. Which is kind of a shame, since the inhuman plotlines in AoS were pretty good regardless of their very existence never having even the slightest bone tossed its way in the films.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Caring about canonicity is stupid, especially with comic book shit.

 

[apocat]

Copyright has existed about as long as the printing press. As soon as people could make copies, there has been law to protect the originator.

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Those laws was about reproducing an exact text, if I'm not mistaken. Not about using characters from other literary works. I believe that came far later.

The time period that characters were procected was also significantly shorter when those laws first did appear. I seem to remember reading 14 years somewhere, as opposed to pretty much indefinitely while Disneys lawyers and lobbyists has anything to say about the matter.

And again. Even when the printing press first was invented, stories had existed for millennia. Trying to control ideas in that manner is still a very modern invention.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Copyright absolutely ought to be shorter, but it needs to exist in some for a or else you don't get the blockbuster movies we're talking about.

As far as character copyright, even if it didn't exist you'd have to do away with trademark as well. Unless you don't care that you can't advertise that your Spider-Man story has Spider-Man in it.

 

[Tavernade]

Why? Is Alan Moores usage of public domain figures in the League of extraordinary gentlemen of Gentlemen less valid than the original works the characters first appeared in? Is the Aenid less valid that the Odyssesy? Are those works "fan-fic?" Is Marvels repeated usage of the character Dracula "fan-fic"? Is Disneys interpretations of old european fairy tales "fan-fic"?

If I wrote a fan fiction continuation to an already ongoing story the ideas I presented in my story would indeed likely be disregarded by most fans. But not because of legal reasons. It would be because the fans decided to disregard it out of respect to the original author and their engagement with their story. And that's the beauty of it. The readers would get to decide how they interact with the fiction rather than that being dictated to them.

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The difference is in my example there's an intent the writer has not finished telling yet that the story has been written to build up to. Any Batman story is equally valid, but if a specific Batman author has planned out a 70 issue arc and a fan writes their own version of issue 65 when issue 64 isn't out yet, the author's version of issue 65 is the more valid one.

 

[Falchion]

No surprise since they don't have the rights to those.

 

[Ithil]

Agent Carter appears to be the exception, given both Feige, the Russos and Markus/McFeely had direct roles in making it and they had Jarvis cameo in Endgame. Helps of course that it's set so long ago in the movie timeline that nothing from it could really affect the films.

 

[The Artisan]

If you look at the bigger picture, that's no time at all. Stories have been told since language was invented.



That's a depressingly passive way of interacting with fiction. The whole point I'm trying to make is that there isn't really that "official" fiction are not inherently different from any other thoughts. Nobody can really own an idea. Companies understand this too. Do a little research about how publishers fucked over Supermans creators. The law is designed to help companies make a profit, not to support writers.

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I understand what you mean. Maybe I just don't have a creative enough personality to see past my own pessimistic way of this reality.

 

[Bing147]

I feel like it's pretty much guaranteed at this point that inhumans will never be a canon thing in the proper MCU. They were only ever an attempt by Perlmutter to have non-quite-xmen, and now that Disney owns Fox that's no longer a concern. Which is kind of a shame, since the inhuman plotlines in AoS were pretty good regardless of their very existence never having even the slightest bone tossed its way in the films.

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Ms Marvel comes out later this year and the Inhumans are kind of essential to her backstory. They could rewrite it, but word is that they haven't, so we'll likely get an answer on how they plan to do Inhumans this year.

 

[Bing147]

The Inhumans show didn't even acknowledge the groundwork that was laid out in AoS, which was on ABC. In fact, most of the television shows didn't connect, crossover, or even reference each other. I think the only stuff is the Netflix stuff with itself, AoS and the Agent Carter crossover, and Runaways and Cloak and Dagger and their crossover. It would have made a lot of sense for AoS to reference and crossover with all the other shows, especially The Inhumans, but it didn't happen. So if those shows didn't coordinate on broader scale to have their own canon, it doesn't make sense for Marvel Studios to integrate all of it either.

We probably aren't going to get a "this isn't canon" confirmation from Feige, but we definitely aren't getting "this is all canon now" confirmation.

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Cloak and Dagger made a few references to Luke Cage. Minor, but specific enough that they were almost certainly referencing the show.

 

[Nocturne]

not that it matters but at least it means we can safely bury stick in a mediocre tv series where he belongs

 

[subpar spatula]

Do people actually care this much about this? Seems extremely trivial to even waste brain power on.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Do people actually care this much about this? Seems extremely trivial to even waste brain power on.

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Era really likes AOS, I don't know what else to to tell you.

 

[Yukari]

No surprise since they don't have the rights to those.

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They Have just didn't produce by Marvel Studios.

 

[Borgus]

I just want to chime in and say that while I enjoyed the Daredevil show, I'm excited to see the character in MCU movies. He's the biggest oversight to me in the film's (outside F4 and X-Men, I guess) but I want to see what they do with him.

I will admit I want Charlie Cox back, but largely cause I think he really carried the show. Daredevil was good but not without a lot of flaws, and is maybe a bit overrated on this forum. This is all subjective but I imagined there's a lot of creatives at Marvel Studios who liked the show too, and will try to elevate the good stuff and avoid some of the mediocre material from the Netflix series.

 

[King Kingo]

No surprise since they don't have the rights to those.

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They do, though. All the Marvel Television shows were created by ABC Signature. All those shows are in the Marvel Legacy section of Disney+.

 

[Tovarisc]

AOS not being part of MCU is kinda funny considering how hard they originally tied that series to everything that was going on in MCU, but then Feige actively hated with the passion that executive who ran "MCU TV" back then so not shocked if Gunn is right and all that legacy is non-canon now.

 

[SchroDingerzat]

AOS not being part of MCU is kinda funny considering how hard they originally tied that series to everything that was going on in MCU, but then Feige actively hated with the passion that executive who ran "MCU TV" back then so not shocked if Gunn is right and all that legacy is non-canon now.

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Unless it comes from Feige then I am doubtful of Gunn's response. Since the director of Wandavision gave a vague answer previously.

I personally think the official policy is just to not talk about it. As Feige even recently commented on the fandoms of Marvel TV shows when he mentioned the fans would disagree that his new TV stuff is better then what came before. Now I don't think he wants to have them in his canon, but I don't think he also wants to annoy any existing fandoms of the shows (at least not yet).

 

[Weltall Zero]

The shows referenced what ever thay want, the movies have ignored the shows and Disney killed the shows. Like its as simple as that, the movies never had show tie in's the show cast did not show up at the portals in endgame, Colson is dead.

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I only just now realized Coulson only survived Avengers in the shows, and decanonizing the latter means he actually died. I'm fine with that, frankly; not because I don't like the character or actor, but because it obviously gives his death a lot more weight.

 

[Tovarisc]

Unless it comes from Feige then I am doubtful of Gunn's response. Since the director of Wandavision gave a vague answer previously.

I personally think the official policy is just to not talk about it. As Feige even recently commented on the fandoms of Marvel TV shows when he mentioned the fans would disagree that his new TV stuff is better then what came before. Now I don't think he wants to have them in his canon, but I don't think he also wants to annoy any existing fandoms of the shows (at least not yet).

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Even when at the end AOS is very likely not-canon, Feige just keeps talking in circles around the question, it's still great show. It really went to places and got amazing when they stopped doing movie tie-in seasons.

 

[Anoregon]

Ms Marvel comes out later this year and the Inhumans are kind of essential to her backstory. They could rewrite it, but word is that they haven't, so we'll likely get an answer on how they plan to do Inhumans this year.

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I believe there have been reports/rumors that they have in fact changed her backstory in the mcu and she is not inhuman. No one knows for sure yet.

 

[Sacul64]

I only just now realized Coulson only survived Avengers in the shows, and decanonizing the latter means he actually died. I'm fine with that, frankly; not because I don't like the character or actor, but because it obviously gives his death a lot more weight.

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After there was not talk of him still being alive when they had him in Captain Marvel for filming I figured that was the nail in the coffin for him being alive in the movies.

 

[Fj0823]

I only just now realized Coulson only survived Avengers in the shows, and decanonizing the latter means he actually died. I'm fine with that, frankly; not because I don't like the character or actor, but because it obviously gives his death a lot more weight.

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Spoiler: Mild Loki spoilers

The all seeing, all knowing Time Agency in Loki confirms Coulson died at the hands of Loki.

And the Darkhold in Wandavision is completely different from the one in AOS.

Feige is doing his damnest to destroy head canons lol

 

[unicornKnight]

Leaving out the amazing Daredevil is a mistake and pure evil.

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A show can be amazing and not part of MCU at the same time. Feige had nothing to do with it.

 

[nachum00]

Season 1 of Daredevil is better than most MCU movies.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Spoiler: Mild Loki spoilers

The all seeing, all knowing Time Agency in Loki confirms Coulson died at the hands of Loki.

I haven't watched much of AoS, but from reading the wiki (Agents of Shield spoilers) Coulson did indeed die, but was actually resurrected and got his memories of his resurrection erased to preserve his sanity. So the TVA would technically be telling the truth either way. .

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[mreddie]

Cloak and Dagger and Runaways dying for bullshit.

 

[The Artisan]

There is something else that bothers me about this. Two things actually, both having to do with Netflix MCU and its relation to the main MCU:

1. The Russo brothers considered including the Netflix characters in Infinity War, and I think subsequently if that happened they would also be included in Endgame. Ultimately it sounds like they didn't do it because they felt the movies would get too crowded, which is a whole separate story. But if they aren't supposed to be in the same universe to begin, then why would the idea even be brought into consideration?
2. If the Netflix MCU is indeed not part of the main MCU, then what cinematic universe is it a part of? All of the shows have constantly referenced events and characters from the first two phases. So if there is no connection, did all of the people of Netflix MCU's NYC just have the same fever dreams and accepted everything as reality or something?

 

[LakeEarth]

Sad because I love AoS, but once the Darkhold showed up in Wandavision I knew the dream was dead.

 

[Layell]

We should all just consider Aos/Netflix MCU to be some alt timeline from MCU, and just be happy it existed in the first place.