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James Gunn confirms on Twitter that previous Marvel shows are not part of the MCU
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
Well on the plus side at least this means that I don't need to finish watching those long ass Netflix shows
Though I might check out Punisher because I really did enjoy Jon Bernthal in that role
Though I might check out Punisher because I really did enjoy Jon Bernthal in that role
Agent Carter was not produced by Marvel Studios.
It was co-produced by ABC Studios and Marvel Telesivion, just like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Daredevil and Runaways.
Feige is listed as an executive producer, though it's unlikely that he was heavily involved outside of the idea.
the fact that they're not canon doesn't stop some of them like daredevil from being great shows. not watching them because they don't nebulously fit into a universe is missing out on some good shit
Exactly. The Marvel Television shows could reference the films all they want, but it was a one way relationship. The films never referenced the shows. Jarvis was the first TV ref in the films. The films will finally start referencing the D+ shows (Wanda's experience in the Hex will have ramifications in Dr Strange 2, likewise with Monica and The Marvels. And the time line shenanigans in Loki will have effects in Dr Strange 2 and Spider-Man No Way Home.)
No it wouldn't. In the same way that JK Simmons playing J. Jonah Jameson in Far From Home doesn't canonize Tobey's Spider-Man.
Losing Kingpin and Daredevil would be a major bummer.
I'm fully on the train that says the multiverse is their way of having their cake and eating it, too.
I'm fully on the train that says the multiverse is their way of having their cake and eating it, too.
The biggest test to see if Agent Carter is canon is to see if
I'm a fan of the Agent Carter show overall, and that aspect specifically.
They contradict and or confirm Dottie and the Widows program details that were revealed in the show in the Black Widow movie.
I really liked how they fit that in there.
I really liked how they fit that in there.
I'm a fan of the Agent Carter show overall, and that aspect specifically.
I had heard that of all the TV shows, that was his pet project.
Well, it's certainly the only one that he was directly involved with in some fashion.
Feige is credited as an executive producer on the series, while Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely (the writers of all three Captain America films, Infinity War and Endgame), as those two created the series and wrote the first episode. So it's the only Marvel TV show that has deep creative ties to the writers and producers of the MCU films.
But after the pilot, it doesn't look like they were involved much at all, with both seasons 1 and 2 being led by the actual showrunners, Michele Fazekas and Tara Butters.
Makes sense. I'd assume they broke the season as well. The second season strays away from the main universe in tone somewhat bad has less direct connections. The first season is pretty right with MCU tie ins.
I've seen people debate this a lot but I actually preferred the second season. It felt like it was doing its own thing a bit more and I liked the more fantastical element.
I enjoyed them both though. Would love a third season or wrap-up film on Disney+, as unlikely as it is.
I liked em both in different ways, though I liked the first a bit more.
I'd also love to have one more, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the connection I mentioned in that upcoming MCU movie.
Doesn't Avengers 2 continue from an episode of Agents of Shield? How is that non Canon?
I thought it was more like the other way around. Agents of Shield created connections and backfilled stuff
The issue is that it's one-sided.
Yes, in the canon of the MCU, Coulson had been repairing a helicarrier for Fury in case of an emergency (which ended up being the end of Age of Ultron) and it was his team's intelligence that got the location of Loki's scepter to the Avengers through Maria Hill.
The issue is that it's only mentioned in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and not Age of Ultron itself other than Fury vaguely referring to Coulson and Agent Koenig (Patton Oswalt) as "a couple of old friends."
So it's a one-way tie in because the films didn't want to alienate audiences by directly mentioning something from an ABC television series that was viewed by millions and millions of less people than Age of Ultron.
And after season 2 of AoS, any idea of communication between Marvel Studios and Marvel TV went completely out the window.
i mean he's dead in aos tooEh...As far as I'm concerned, Agent Coulson is still alive.
Holy shit, that's depressing a fukk...wish you had told me that.
It has always been a one sided relationship.
Marvel shows pre D+: "Notice me senpai."
MCU: "Mariahcareyidontknowher.gif"
It's been strange how defensive people have been about the obvious connection (or lack thereof, rather) between the two, as if the shows' inherent quality is entirely dependent on being MCU canon or not. Just enjoy them regardless! TBH though Feige himself could come out and say this exact same thing and people would still be in denial.
In regards to Jarvis's actor being in EG it was an obvious easter egg to the fans of AC. I think the D+ shows will only further retcon (if you can call it that) the old shows in the near future.
Marvel shows pre D+: "Notice me senpai."
MCU: "Mariahcareyidontknowher.gif"
It's been strange how defensive people have been about the obvious connection (or lack thereof, rather) between the two, as if the shows' inherent quality is entirely dependent on being MCU canon or not. Just enjoy them regardless! TBH though Feige himself could come out and say this exact same thing and people would still be in denial.
In regards to Jarvis's actor being in EG it was an obvious easter egg to the fans of AC. I think the D+ shows will only further retcon (if you can call it that) the old shows in the near future.
I haven't watched AoS since the whole Ward/Hydra Planet thing.
Does AoS have the Thanos "Snap/Blip" stuff in it? Or do they just completely ignore that and everything else that happens with the movie Avengers?
Does AoS have the Thanos "Snap/Blip" stuff in it? Or do they just completely ignore that and everything else that happens with the movie Avengers?
They didn't know about the blip thing when they were writing the 2-3 final seasons
so yeah
well, that's what makes us fans of the content. we didn't come up with the ideas, and thus, they don't belong to us.
they mention that Thanos is coming, and reference the beginning of Infinity War where the ring ship shows up in New York, but otherwise the AoS crew was clearly left in the dark, as there are no mentions
they even do a time jump a year into the future, presumably to avoid having to know about what exactly happens in endgame, but apparently nobody even told them about the 5 year timeskip in the start of the movie
other than that, in the last season they do time travel shenanigans, and they do reference and show the quantum realm as depicted in Ant-Man and Endgame
This is all really easy guys, AoS is canon after the TVA is overthrown in Loki and the multiverse is allowed to thrive. There's some branch where Thanos shows up but never snaps because in a multiverse of infinite possibilities there are an infinite number of success stories outside of the piddling fourteen million Strange looked at.
And that's where we obviously disagree. I don't believe ideas belong to whoever happens to have the most cash. Ideas are thoughts, and thoughts belong to everybody. They are beyond capitalism.
And for the record, the Disney corporation didn't come up with any of these ideas. They bought them.
Can I publish a novel about Spider-man? No, I'd get sued. That doesn't in any way invalidate the ideas in said novel. They are as real and valid as anything published by the Disney corporation. The Disney corporation can't descend upon some kids playing the adventures of Spider-man and Batman, declaring their play as outside of official canon and not real. Besides, kids already know that stories aren't real. It's adults who take them too seriously.
Your thoughts are your own. Stories are and have always been living things that evolve by being told and retold by ordinary people. That's how it has been since before recorded history. Intellectual property is an aberration that only very recently appeared in modern society, and it disgusts me. And the way the Disney corporation lobbies to make sure that their IP doesn't become public domain is vile.
Without intellectual property, the corporations wouldn't even have to pay the creator the first time. I don't love the extension of copyrights so long (and Trademarks need never run out at all) but I can't picture a better alternative.
This is true in a lot of cases but if an author is writing a series or a creator is overseeing a 'universe' a fan's creations is less valid as it's not part of the narrative of the original creator. That doesn't mean it's bad or anything, but if Author A is writing a mystery trilogy and Fan A writes a fan fic before it's finished that gets the solution to the mystery wrong, the later is less valid than the former.
I agree that there is a value in having ownership of ideas for a short period of time, if only to ensure the livelyhood of the creators. That should be for a very limited time though. The original reasoning behind the idea of intellectual property isn't even to protect the author, but to stimulate innovation.
People don't understand that this is the explanation for every non MCU Marvel property including Agents of Shield.
Yes you may get some characters return to the MCU played by the same person, but they're a slightly different version of what you saw.
Aka Charlie Cox in Spiderman No Way Home.
Why? Is Alan Moores usage of public domain figures in the League of extraordinary gentlemen of Gentlemen less valid than the original works the characters first appeared in? Is the Aenid less valid that the Odyssesy? Are those works "fan-fic?" Is Marvels repeated usage of the character Dracula "fan-fic"? Is Disneys interpretations of old european fairy tales "fan-fic"?
If I wrote a fan fiction continuation to an already ongoing story the ideas I presented in my story would indeed likely be disregarded by most fans. But not because of legal reasons. It would be because the fans decided to disregard it out of respect to the original author and their engagement with their story. And that's the beauty of it. The readers would get to decide how they interact with the fiction rather than that being dictated to them.
Stan Lee and Steve Ditko came up with (most of) these ideas. Disney is adapting them. Kids know that the stories aren't real but I think kids come up with more fanfiction than adult fans do. Also, as far as I can tell, intellectual property has been around since at least as long as I've been alive. It seems like it isn't just a Disney thing. Any conglomerate that has a copyright over some material will do what it take to protect their rights over it.
Fans don't own any of it. We can have our headcanons, we can have our fanfictions, but we don't have any say in the stories they decide to tell. We wait for the stories, we get entertained by the stories, and that's what makes us fans.
If you look at the bigger picture, that's no time at all. Stories have been told since language was invented.
That's a depressingly passive way of interacting with fiction. The whole point I'm trying to make is that there isn't really that "official" fiction are not inherently different from any other thoughts. Nobody can really own an idea. Companies understand this too. Do a little research about how publishers fucked over Supermans creators. The law is designed to help companies make a profit, not to support writers.
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The problem being that Disney doesn't play by the same rules as what happens to most IP entering public domain. They will happily adapt and profit from public domain IP:
The list
But they actively lobby against their IP entering the public domain for others to create their own stories.
So it is a matter of these capitalists playing by their own set of rules that will eventually prohibit fans from creating their own ideas/stories around the characters. No Marvel are not public domain (yet), but when that time comes they should be (but won't.) Just because something is the status quo doesn't mean that it is right. Currently though, what Kevin Fiege and the various editorial at Marvel says is canon -is- canon. They are also mutually one in the same because they exist to support those stories and fielding what will work on screen and on the page.
In regards to what an executive producer like Gunn says, it's over reach. The content he says is canon is until it isn't, and currently what matters is what Disney and Fiege are trying to sell you. Gunn is being placated because he is invested in the development of some Marvel/Disney owned characters. They want to retain his voice with said characters so they call him an executive producer. He could have all the opinions in the world on Shang-Chi but nobody gives a shit. The only time Disney will come to him is if they wanted input on how they believe the guardians may interact with that character. Once his time is up with the franchise they'll stop consulting him and find another voice—a person who may even take Gunn written characters and re interpret them (because they can and that's what Disney/Marvel wishes).
So yeah, Gunn is a bit dumb here and he should have just not engaged because it's a bit of overreach on his end, and people arguing about head canon or fan fic or whatever are "right" in that they eventually should be able to create stories with this IP (they won't for reasons listed above) and those listening to Gunn are silly because he genuinely doesn't matter outside of Guardians. Listen to Fiege and Disney. Gunn doesn't matter and can easily be vetoed by just about anyone else with more leverage.
Things we can agree on:
Scott Buck sucks, Inhumans TV show doesn't exist, Ike Pearlmutter is a piece of shit.
The list
But they actively lobby against their IP entering the public domain for others to create their own stories.
So it is a matter of these capitalists playing by their own set of rules that will eventually prohibit fans from creating their own ideas/stories around the characters. No Marvel are not public domain (yet), but when that time comes they should be (but won't.) Just because something is the status quo doesn't mean that it is right. Currently though, what Kevin Fiege and the various editorial at Marvel says is canon -is- canon. They are also mutually one in the same because they exist to support those stories and fielding what will work on screen and on the page.
In regards to what an executive producer like Gunn says, it's over reach. The content he says is canon is until it isn't, and currently what matters is what Disney and Fiege are trying to sell you. Gunn is being placated because he is invested in the development of some Marvel/Disney owned characters. They want to retain his voice with said characters so they call him an executive producer. He could have all the opinions in the world on Shang-Chi but nobody gives a shit. The only time Disney will come to him is if they wanted input on how they believe the guardians may interact with that character. Once his time is up with the franchise they'll stop consulting him and find another voice—a person who may even take Gunn written characters and re interpret them (because they can and that's what Disney/Marvel wishes).
So yeah, Gunn is a bit dumb here and he should have just not engaged because it's a bit of overreach on his end, and people arguing about head canon or fan fic or whatever are "right" in that they eventually should be able to create stories with this IP (they won't for reasons listed above) and those listening to Gunn are silly because he genuinely doesn't matter outside of Guardians. Listen to Fiege and Disney. Gunn doesn't matter and can easily be vetoed by just about anyone else with more leverage.
Things we can agree on:
Scott Buck sucks, Inhumans TV show doesn't exist, Ike Pearlmutter is a piece of shit.
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I mean, it's a shame, but if it means we can potentially get another crack at Punisher, I can make my peace with it. I liked the show well enough but it was nowhere near as good as the character's original appearance in Daredevil S2, hopefully one day we will get a full length show that matches that kind of intensity.
I though this was finfirme before officially? I didn't really pay much attention.
AOS not being cannon would be a loss as it has some of the best characters in the universe, but it also branches off in many ways and has a lot of inconsistency the further into the show you get.
They should soft reboot it within the current MCU TV show universe. Just do a short show with the same actors, 8 part series or something as a one off, let the characters back in.
AOS not being cannon would be a loss as it has some of the best characters in the universe, but it also branches off in many ways and has a lot of inconsistency the further into the show you get.
They should soft reboot it within the current MCU TV show universe. Just do a short show with the same actors, 8 part series or something as a one off, let the characters back in.
It's a one way street, the movies are canon to the show, but the shows aren't canon in the MCU.