That was one of the few good things about the show, yeah.
lmfao
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James Gunn confirms on Twitter that previous Marvel shows are not part of the MCU
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
1. They're all canon until they're contradicted basically.
2. I find it hard to believe Agents of SHIELD isn't canon, since it contains a bunch of canon movie characters (and Agent Carter characters) doing stuff and having adventures, and directly referencing the movies. If AoS isn't canon, it's the most canon non-canon thing I've ever seen.
You can disagree with the director all you want, it's your right. But the director has the final say on the movie. Do you believe Markus and McFeely just went to a cabin, wrote a script all by themselves, gave it to the Russos and the Russos then followed what was on the page? That's not how filmmaking works at all.
The Russos, like any other director in the same situation, ostensibly co-wrote the script with the writers over many months of brainstorming, without actually sitting down to do the hard work of typing it out. They forgo an actual writing credit because the writers do that hard work, but they don't get to write without copious amounts of feedback and instruction from the directors.
Every single scene is approved or reworked by the directors. It's a collaborative medium, with the directors ultimately deciding what goes in or stays out of the script. There are exceptions to the rule when writers have cache like Aaron Sorkin, etc, but Marcus and McFeely don't carry that weight. They fortunately have a productive relationship with the Russos, which is why we ended up with entertaining and coherent movies.
It's perfectly fine that the writers disagree with the directors when it comes to aspect of the script, and it's fine for the viewer to disagree with Ridley Scott's intent when it comes to the nature of Deckard. It doesn't change the fact that the director's word is final, they are higher on the power ladder than everyone in the production except key producers and the studio head. And you conveniently left out the fact that Dennis Villeneuve did not contradict Scott's BR at all. Because he's a director himself, who understands my argument.
Huh?
I think most would have to believe that Steve went to a splintered timeline or completely changed the real timeline, otherwise he married Peggy, watched her found SHIELD, knew all along that it was infiltrated by Hydra from the jump, knew his best friend was out there assassinating people, did nothing about it, then really old Grandma Peggy just pretends that she's widowed when she meets Captain america in the present.
There's no disconnect there, Agent Carter can absolutely work.
Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter were definitely intended to be canon when they were first produced and promoted. They were later de-emphasized when Feige gained full control over Marvel Studios. Carter was canceled with a huge unresolved cliffhanger and Agents of SHIELD started ignoring what the movies were doing entirely around S4 to be its own self-contained thing.
Gunn is correct that only the movies and D+ shows are canon, but he's revising history when he says that there was never any coordination between Marvel Studios and Marvel TV.
Also now that the concept of the multiverse is firmly established in the MCU, you can easily just chalk everything that doesn't quite mesh as alternate timelines. Feel free to keep Inhumans as your headcanon.
Gunn is correct that only the movies and D+ shows are canon, but he's revising history when he says that there was never any coordination between Marvel Studios and Marvel TV.
Also now that the concept of the multiverse is firmly established in the MCU, you can easily just chalk everything that doesn't quite mesh as alternate timelines. Feel free to keep Inhumans as your headcanon.
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Yeah, I'm a believer that Steve absolutely changed whatever timeline he ended up in, but there's many people who believe that the timeline had two Caps, one living in secret and the other frozen in ice, which makes ZERO sense to me. As if Steve was gonna just let Bucky get tortured all over again, give me a break!
To be fair, James Gunn isn't writing Marvel Canon. Tomorrow, Marvel could say the Guardians are from another dimension if they wanted to.
Plus Gunn's slightly incorrect since the DC CW Shows are part of the DCEU Multiverse
Its been really disheartening to see Disney and the MCU completely write off Agents of SHIELD, Agent Carter and by extension, the Netflix shows. I think there's been a lot of world building there, great character arcs and useful plot points that can easily be woven back in to the MCU proper for future movies, shows or whatever. (sorry to the 3 Inhumans fans out there but its best to ignore that lmao)
It would be nice to have the actors from these shows show up again but at this point im just hoping we get some love from the multiverse thats likely to explode into the MCU. Multiverse means they can basically do whatever they want and every character matters. And perhaps Gunn is more in the know of that; so while Pre-Disney+ shows might not be "canon" to the main timeline, they still exist in the multiverse.
Plus Gunn's slightly incorrect since the DC CW Shows are part of the DCEU Multiverse
Its been really disheartening to see Disney and the MCU completely write off Agents of SHIELD, Agent Carter and by extension, the Netflix shows. I think there's been a lot of world building there, great character arcs and useful plot points that can easily be woven back in to the MCU proper for future movies, shows or whatever. (sorry to the 3 Inhumans fans out there but its best to ignore that lmao)
It would be nice to have the actors from these shows show up again but at this point im just hoping we get some love from the multiverse thats likely to explode into the MCU. Multiverse means they can basically do whatever they want and every character matters. And perhaps Gunn is more in the know of that; so while Pre-Disney+ shows might not be "canon" to the main timeline, they still exist in the multiverse.
What if
Steve was captured and now works as a Variant for the TVA and the old Cap we saw at the end of Endgame is either another Cap from a different timeline or Loki
I can't help but suspect that most people who are obsessed with canon are not long time readers of either Marvel or DC comics, because they would understand the dangers in trying to make everything fit. That road leads to the linearverse.
Doctor Who has the right idea. Everything is canon except for when it isn't. Contradictions are okay, because trying to keep everything in line is a fools errand. Stories are fun!
Doctor Who has the right idea. Everything is canon except for when it isn't. Contradictions are okay, because trying to keep everything in line is a fools errand. Stories are fun!
It's not possible to go back and live in the prime timeline because that's not how time travel works in Endgame. If it did, they would have just gone back and killed Baby Thanos like Rhodey suggested and saved themselves a lot of trouble. It's more accurate to call it alternate timeline travel. History cannot be rewritten.
So yes, they're contradictory beliefs, but for a different reason. To hold both of these beliefs at the same time would mean you believe that Endgame's explanation of time travel itself is not canon.
I would be happy enough with this arrangement.
The previous shows were alternate universes/timelines, and now we're introduced to the same people in the prime MCU timeline.
Allows them to bring back some "existing" versions of characters played by the same actors, without being tied down to their prior history at all. And they could recast or ignore any other associated characters they wanted and chalk it up to multiversal variance, like telling TV Iron Fist to get lost.
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Yep. Jessica and Luke breaking the bad isn't going to be on Disney+
AoS and Agent Carter are officially canon unless explicitly stated otherwise by Feige.
Effects from the films are felt through Agents of SHIELD, with two effects from SHIELD directly impacting the movies
Agents of SHIELD canon to MCU:
Effects from the films are felt through Agents of SHIELD, with two effects from SHIELD directly impacting the movies
Agents of SHIELD canon to MCU:
- Fury, Sif, Agent Carter, Howling Commandos, Maria Hill, and Agent Coulson all reprise their respective roles from the movies.
- Cleanup from Thor The Dark World is explicitly seen
- HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD in Winter Soldier has a drastic effect on AoS
- Abomination being held in the Fridge is explicitly mentioned
- Coulson and team send Hill the location of the scepter which then leads into the opening of Age of Ultron
- Coulson and team find a missing Hellicarrier which then Fury uses to save the citizens of Sokovia at the end of Age of Ultron
- Howard Stark and Peggy Carter reprise their roles from the movies
- Ivan Vanko's father is shown
- Captain America appears in archival footage
- HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD and the origins of the idea that would become the Winter Soldier program is shown
- Jarvis is introduced and then re-appears in Endgame
And he didn't confirm it either, despite Scott being pretty adamant that he will before the movie hit the screens.
But going back to the MCU, Russo's where't the ones deciding what's canon and what's not, Feige and Co are. And it so happens that the only character from pre-D+ TV shows that appeared in the MCU movie (and THE movie nonetheless) is the one from the only show Feige himself produced. My point is, that's a clear reference to Agent Carter, and if Feige didn't want it, because he doesn't consider AC as a part of the MCU, it wouldn't be there.
Don't you see, Tony having sex was because he was a morally corrupt arms dealer. Then he saw the error of his ways, became a superhero and never had sex again.
That is what you and I tell ourselves, but our interpretations don't hold water next to the word of the IPs' creators.
These are influences from the movies to the shows. Not the other way around. AoS was just filling the gaps. It's not like AoU was written as a reaction to what happened in AoS.
And that's the way it has always been. Up until Jarvis appearing in Endgame, and then of course from WandaVision on the influences will keep going both ways.
Established canon is important insofar as it informs sequels.
You can hold something to be true in your head all day long, but when Matt Murdock shows up in Spider-Man: No Way Home and his backstory is rebooted from the Netflix show, your head cannon isn't going to matter very much now is it?
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At this point Feige himself could come out and say "Look-get the hint already! Anything that doesn't have the Marvel Studios logo in front isn't part of the MCU!" and you would have people saying "Well, he's only saying that under duress. He doesn't specifically state the name of the shows in question."
Gunn has always been an ass about canon, thinking he is some authority on the entire MCU canon. The prelude tie-in comics have always specifically been called canon, and Gunn just comes out and says they aren't, when someone points out there's a continuity error with Nebula's modifications. Gunn just doesn't care about anything other than his own work, but that doesn't make him right.
Yes. My head canon would absolutely still be as real as any other fictious story. Because it's just a story. It's not real.
Honestly, it's kind of sweet how people want to be reassured by storytellers. "This is how it really happened, right?" It's just a story. It didn't happen at all.
Writers can and will change whatever they like, when the need arises, and they can do that because none of it is real in the first place, except in the minds of the people who are told the story.
Let me tell you a story. Peter Parker went to the doctor and they discovered a lump, a biopsy showed it was just a benign cyst. The end.
It's a shitty story for sure, and yet it happened just as much as all of the events in the Raimi films. Not at all.
How i hate the very concept of "intellectual property." It's the bane of imagination itself.
That doesn't make it not canon though. Sure, moving forward the shows will have major consequences into the movies, but these aren't simply written off unless explicitly stated by Feige.
Sure.
He isn't saying anything special or new here though. And of course prelude tie-in comics have zero value on the ladder of canonicity. Nobody will bat an eye if any Marvel Studios project contradicts those.
I like Daredevil and AoS than most MCU shows, don't really care if they're considered as Canon or not at this point.
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This is the perfect view on it. The shows were great. But they're just separate from the mainline MCU.
I do wonder if the Charlie Cox rumors are true though...
Sure, I get that. But there's a difference between saying "They're not canon" (invalidating the work of multiple artists, writers etc.) and "It's a retcon".
But they aren't 'canon' either.
Ultimately, the simple answer is that unless it was a Marvel Studios production (The MCU films, the One-Shots), with no partner involved (WandaVision, Loki, etc.), it's not going to function in the MCU as an existing story, so it will most likely be ("re")introduced as soon as needed (And we have seen actually happened, i.e. Darkhold), even if they use the same actor (JK Simmons, James D'Arcy) they are not essentially the same character.
Not sure I'd say their connection to the MCU is what determines their validity. Most of them stand up quite well on their own merits.
Does it really matter? The shows were so inconsequential to the movies the only reason to watch is because you think they were good shows (highly debatable) and not because there are some hidden truths in them that influenced the greater MCU.
The Loki in the show is the Loki taken into custody at the end of the first Avengers. He killed coulson as far as he was aware. Mobius was not obligated to say anything about that either way.
Okay, to be clear I'm not one of the people who thinks this and prime universe spouse-Steve are both true, BUT... I think they ARE reconcilable. Because:
Cap falls in the ocean in 1945. He's 27 years old. She's 24 (canonically, based on her explicitly stated age in Winter Soldier with math applied).
Agent Carter takes place in 1946 (S1) and 1947 (S2). So the "getting over him arc" is when she's 25.
Cap thaws out in 2011, preserved at age 27. He spends the next 12 years superhero-ing until his adventures finally end in Endgame, which takes place in 2023.
He's 39 when he goes back to find her. He's not going to go back to 1945 to be with his 24 year old girlfriend, 15 years his junior. I don't know what year he returned to, but it's going to be long after the events depicted in Agent Carter and her "getting over him arc". It was probably ten years after that, who knows.
Good, honestly.
I'm glad for the clarification so I can mentally move on there.
I really enjoyed the Netflix shows. Didn't care so much for AC and AoS. Glad I can skip them guilt free.
I'm glad for the clarification so I can mentally move on there.
I really enjoyed the Netflix shows. Didn't care so much for AC and AoS. Glad I can skip them guilt free.
Why people care so much about what is canon or what is not.
Everything important about Wanda or Falcon show could be summarised into one line.
Do people really watch these shows to understand one line reference in next movie instead of actually enjoying show?
Daredevil is one of the best TV shows related to comic book characters. Being canon or not doesn't make this statement invalid.
Everything important about Wanda or Falcon show could be summarised into one line.
Do people really watch these shows to understand one line reference in next movie instead of actually enjoying show?
Daredevil is one of the best TV shows related to comic book characters. Being canon or not doesn't make this statement invalid.
It was the only MCU released prior to The Walt Disney Company's acquisition of Marvel Entertainment. 🤷♀️
DD was so good but damn that Netflix suit really is rough. The Affleck suit was way better
The first season of Agent Carter is acknowledged canon because it was produced by Marvel Studios, hence the appearance of Jarvis in the past in Endgame.
The rest of it and all of Agents of SHIELD is not, has never been and will never be acknowledged by the MCU. If you want to think of them as canon nobody can stop you, obviously, but the people who make the MCU do not ever give Agents of SHIELD a single second of thought. Agent Coulson died on the SHIELD helicarrier right before the invasion of New York and that's the end of his story.
Yeah it's this. DC did the same thing in comics during New52 and Star Wars has done the same thing both on the old EU and modern canon.
I don't think, by their nature, there's much in the Netflix/ABC shows that contradict the movies, so they get to be quasi-canon until Marvel decides to recast the characters, and even then unless they do something specifically out of whack with the shows they're still technically fine insofar as canon goes.
When it comes to the NF verse, to me, the more important thing is "Will these characters come back into the MCU with their same Actors?"
Nothing in the NF shows is big enough to "matter" to the MCU. You can make them Canon or not, and it doesn't change anything in the movies. If they bring back DD and JJ and KP and Punisher (all played by the same people) into the Movies or Shows, and they simply never address events that happened in the NF shows then cool. I think more than anything, people mainly just want to see these versions of these characters used again for new stories in the MCU. It doesn't really matter to anyone in the MCU if the events in those shows actually happened ( I exclude LC and Iron Fist because I'm 100% sure those actors are not coming back. LC wasn't that big or beloved, and the actor for a major villain from that show is now Blade. Iron Fist S1 was shit and even the show tried to change who was Iron Fist in S2, so I don't think they want the same actor for any future Iron Fist)
AoS ... ignoring the behind scenes stuff that was going on, it's bluntly non-canon IMO. Sure, it has some characters from the MCU films in it, but after S1 it starts going BIG and the events in it are too grand to not have an effect on the events in the MCU.
Nothing in the NF shows is big enough to "matter" to the MCU. You can make them Canon or not, and it doesn't change anything in the movies. If they bring back DD and JJ and KP and Punisher (all played by the same people) into the Movies or Shows, and they simply never address events that happened in the NF shows then cool. I think more than anything, people mainly just want to see these versions of these characters used again for new stories in the MCU. It doesn't really matter to anyone in the MCU if the events in those shows actually happened ( I exclude LC and Iron Fist because I'm 100% sure those actors are not coming back. LC wasn't that big or beloved, and the actor for a major villain from that show is now Blade. Iron Fist S1 was shit and even the show tried to change who was Iron Fist in S2, so I don't think they want the same actor for any future Iron Fist)
AoS ... ignoring the behind scenes stuff that was going on, it's bluntly non-canon IMO. Sure, it has some characters from the MCU films in it, but after S1 it starts going BIG and the events in it are too grand to not have an effect on the events in the MCU.
With the rumors we hear about Ms Marvel, it seems the MCU really doesn't want to make Inhumans a thing. If they wanted to make AoS Canon then the Loki scene would have been a perfect time, but they didn't.
