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The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,132
He wasn't that bad. At least we got a scene of him getting beat up by daredevil out of his existence.
even if he wasn't that bad, 'bad' is still the adjective used to describe him.
Iron Fist was everything wrong with the Marvel Netflix universe and it's a shame because Iron Fist is a cool character with cool stories.
I think there is a good chance they'll bring the character back though. The rest of the Netflix MCU characters should keep the same cast, but this is one character they need to rebuild from the ground up. Lewis Tan auditioned for the role and if he had gotten it then not only would the fight scenes have been better, but the Netflix MCU would have also had its first Asian protagonist.
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,802
Minnesota
As far as I know Charlie Cox, Kristen Ritter & Jon Bernthal are all (rumored) reprising Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and The Punisher. But their shows are not canon to the MCU so they're effectively being rebooted iirc.
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
It always amazes me how quickly these things get mired in bizarre canon issues. The way the X-Men movies did a speed run towards being incomprehensible… whew!

Anyway I think the multiverse stuff will just serve as a permanent handwave. Canon fiends can figure out where things land, what each version of Charlie Cox's Daredevil might have lived through, etc. but I doubt Disney cares all that much. If it gets in the way of plans for the main movies it'll get cast aside ASAP.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,567
I wonder: are there people who both believe that Agent Cartor is canon, as well as believe Cap went back to live with Peggy in the prime timeline? (and is subsequently Peggy's mystery husband who just sat indoors to hide his identity like a fucking lazy irresponsible slob for decades)
In the final pages of Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely's screenplay, a now 112-year-old Steve entrusts the star-spangled shield of Captain America to right-hand man Sam Wilson (Anthony Mackie) in 2023. A transition to Columbia Heights, Washington D.C., is accompanied by a title card: "WASHINGTON D.C., 1949." INT. RED HOUSE, COLUMBIA HEIGHTS, WASHINGTON DC - DAY A TEA CUP LIES SHATTERED on the hardwood. We hear Harry James. Move into the living room...past the record player... TO WHERE STEVE DANCES WITH A WOMAN. They rock back and forth barely moving. As they turn, we see... PEGGY CARTER, tears streaming down her face. He steps on her toe. She laughs. As they turn, we get a good look at... Steve Rogers, eyes shut, finally getting the life he deserves. THE END. This puts Steve and Peggy's dance two years after the second season of the Peggy-led Agent Carter (2015), the spinoff television series that detailed Peggy's adventures after World War II. 1949 is the same year Peggy ended her tenure with the Strategic Scientific Reserve, which was eventually folded into the Strategic Homeland, Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division - a.k.a. S.H.I.E.L.D. - where Carter would act as its Director. According to Markus and McFeely, two Captain Americas have existed in the Marvel Cinematic Universe since 1945: "Here's how we reconcile it. We think there have always been two Caps from 1945 to, say, now, and we just didn't know that. That's the loop, right?" McFeely previously told Backstory Magazine. "It's not Back to the Future rules, it's branch reality rules. This is not stepping on a butterfly that turns the world into Biff's casino. You can't alter your future by going back to the past. We sort of created our own time travel rules wherein, as the Ancient One (Tilda Swinton) says, if you remove an Infinity Stone from a timeline, that creates a branch reality." McFeely added Steve "clipped those branches" when sent back through time by Smart Hulk (Mark Ruffalo) to return the displaced Infinity Stones. Steve then jumped nearly 75 years into the past and stayed behind. "So, his younger self is on ice somewhere and it's only in 2011 [when Steve is unfrozen] that there are technically two Steves running around to the point where if you were to look closely at Peggy's funeral, there'd be an old man in the back named Roger Stevens," McFeely said.

Could just be easier egg casting. It's meaningless.
It's the only TV to movies ester egg in the entire MCU, though.
I mean I'm def bein a bit goofy with my comparison, sure. But "get the same actor" can easily be a homage vs an explicit promise of canonicity. Jarvis does absolutely nothing in Endgame that we wouldn't expect him to do based on just knowing he's Stark's chauffer/butler. If he had said or referenced something that happened in Agent Carter that'd be another story entirely, but just "existing" is just as likely to be stunt-casting as it is to mean something for the story. See: Peitro in Wandavision.
I mean, by that logic you can say that The Incredible Hulk in not canon either.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
Am I the only one who liked The Punisher? Keep him, Daredevil, and Jessica Jones

As far as I know Charlie Cox, Kristen Ritter & Jon Bernthal are all (rumored) reprising Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and The Punisher. But their shows are not canon to the MCU so they're effectively being rebooted iirc.

Awesome if true.
 

Keym

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
9,197
Guess this confirms we'll have another Boner joke in No Way Home

Thanks Disney
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
If you enjoyed the shows then that's what matters. I don't get the obsession with what's canon or connected or whatever. AoS wouldn't have been any better of a show if Iron Man showed up.
This. Most of it's in "Who cares?" territory. Most were done in a way that they neither add or subtract from the MCU. And with the multi-verse, if you want something to be canon, it fits in just fine and can be to you.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
It always amazes me how quickly these things get mired in bizarre canon issues. The way the X-Men movies did a speed run towards being incomprehensible… whew!

Anyway I think the multiverse stuff will just serve as a permanent handwave. Canon fiends can figure out where things land, what each version of Charlie Cox's Daredevil might have lived through, etc. but I doubt Disney cares all that much. If it gets in the way of plans for the main movies it'll get cast aside ASAP.
there is already a standard for this. there are like 1000 doctor who audio dramas and basically you decide as the fan if it's canon or not because the main content (TV/filmed content) will likely never address it nor does it have any obligation to.
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
there is already a standard for this. there are like 1000 doctor who audio dramas and basically you decide as the fan if it's canon or not because the main content (TV/filmed content) will likely never address it nor does it have any obligation to.

Yeah this is the standard way to do it, really. It's Star Wars that had that intensely codified tiers of canon thing. IIRC Star Trek novels work more like Who, it's just kinda up to you to enjoy the stories and do what you want with them.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Canon is stupid, because it can change at any time and is ultimately up to the creator. Not a great idea to waste too much time on it.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
Canon is such a silly concept. Just watch some good shows. Personally I think Daredevil, SHIELD and Jessica Jones eclipses quite a few of the movies. Agent Carter was really good too.

Both SHIELD and Carter explicitly ties to the MCU in many ways, with actors coming over from the films. Just consider them variants if it really bothers you.

Yeah, like especially now that alternate timelines/dimensions are an explicit thing in the MCU, its easy to just consider Agents of Shield etc to be in a different timeline from prime MCU. It shouldn't really impact your enjoyment one way or another.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Yeah this is the standard way to do it, really. It's Star Wars that had that intensely codified tiers of canon thing. IIRC Star Trek novels work more like Who, it's just kinda up to you to enjoy the stories and do what you want with them.
yeah most of the older series with huge expanded universes just leave it up to you, i don't always understand the chase for MCU recognition. if you liked the show and it mattered to you then it happened lol. it's not complicated
 

Tathanen

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,038
I mean, by that logic you can say that The Incredible Hulk in not canon either.

Nah, Bruce mentioned Incredible Hulk events in Avengers. "Last time I was in New York I broke... Harlem." And we've had enough Incredible Hulk references since then. I get your point tho, sure. I'm not claiming that Jarvis is definitely not an Agent Carter canon flag, just that we can't be totally sure yet.
 

Kyari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,849
Every time a topic like this comes up I genuinely don't understand why people are so vehemently against something being "canonical".

Like, what does it matter if Agents of Shield is canon? Why do people get so upset that a show they didn't watch/like might be part of the canon? Is it a fear of missing out?
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,312
maxresdefault.jpg
When your custom characters show up in the game cinematic.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Every time a topic like this comes up I genuinely don't understand why people are so vehemently against something being "canonical".

Like, what does it matter if Agents of Shield is canon? Why do people get so upset that a show they didn't watch/like might be part of the canon? Is it a fear of missing out?
they want affirmation that the thing they liked is legitimate and official, even though it's just all stupid funny book stuff

oh i misread your post lol but i'm answering why people want something to be canonized for whatever reason
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,223
I'm on the same boat. I just won't watch them.

This is the biggest sin of the MCU and "universes" in general. Daredevil is a legitimately amazing show (at least in S1) and for people to just write-off content because it's not in some arbitrary canon is ridiculous when the content is just well made, period.
 

Kyari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,849
they want affirmation that the thing they liked is legitimate and official, even though it's just all stupid funny book stuff

oh i misread your post lol but i'm answering why people want something to be canonized for whatever reason

I get that, but the other side seems to always be SO AGGRESSIVE about denying the potential for a show to be canonical.

I've read more than enough books and comics in my time to just happily suspend my disbelief and treat all of the old shows as secondary canon until something comes out and overtly contradicts them.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,061
How is canon a silly concept? It is the de facto storytelling mechanic that connects different stories together.

Fiction is inherently pleasant lies. Canon is no more important or true than whatever story a ten year old improvises with her action figures. Your interpretation of or way of enjoying a story is as valid as whatever the author intended.

That's how stories has always worked. Only in the modern world, where "intellecual property" is a thing does canon become as important as it is currently. Except in religion, I guess.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
Everything is canon based on multiversal rules. The Arrowverse can be canon to the MCU if they ever want it to be.

Y'all are arguing over nothing.
To be fair, most people are using "canon" as a shorthand for "happened in the same Earth as the Marvel Studios movies."
The Netflix shows, AoS, AC, the Hulu shows, etc. didn't. Different Earth / Universe / Continuity / whatever.

That doesn't mean actors can't go and act like the same character they did in a previous production, as James D'Arcy, in the MCU proper.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,756
In the final pages of Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely's screenplay, a now 112-year-old Steve entrusts the star-spangled shield of Captain America to right-hand man Sam Wilson (Anthony Mackie) in 2023. A transition to Columbia Heights, Washington D.C., is accompanied by a title card: "WASHINGTON D.C., 1949." INT. RED HOUSE, COLUMBIA HEIGHTS, WASHINGTON DC - DAY A TEA CUP LIES SHATTERED on the hardwood. We hear Harry James. Move into the living room...past the record player... TO WHERE STEVE DANCES WITH A WOMAN. They rock back and forth barely moving. As they turn, we see... PEGGY CARTER, tears streaming down her face. He steps on her toe. She laughs. As they turn, we get a good look at... Steve Rogers, eyes shut, finally getting the life he deserves. THE END. This puts Steve and Peggy's dance two years after the second season of the Peggy-led Agent Carter (2015), the spinoff television series that detailed Peggy's adventures after World War II. 1949 is the same year Peggy ended her tenure with the Strategic Scientific Reserve, which was eventually folded into the Strategic Homeland, Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division - a.k.a. S.H.I.E.L.D. - where Carter would act as its Director. According to Markus and McFeely, two Captain Americas have existed in the Marvel Cinematic Universe since 1945: "Here's how we reconcile it. We think there have always been two Caps from 1945 to, say, now, and we just didn't know that. That's the loop, right?" McFeely previously told Backstory Magazine. "It's not Back to the Future rules, it's branch reality rules. This is not stepping on a butterfly that turns the world into Biff's casino. You can't alter your future by going back to the past. We sort of created our own time travel rules wherein, as the Ancient One (Tilda Swinton) says, if you remove an Infinity Stone from a timeline, that creates a branch reality." McFeely added Steve "clipped those branches" when sent back through time by Smart Hulk (Mark Ruffalo) to return the displaced Infinity Stones. Steve then jumped nearly 75 years into the past and stayed behind. "So, his younger self is on ice somewhere and it's only in 2011 [when Steve is unfrozen] that there are technically two Steves running around to the point where if you were to look closely at Peggy's funeral, there'd be an old man in the back named Roger Stevens," McFeely said.

I'm not going down that rabbit hole for the upteenth time. The directors disagree with the writers, that's all I'll say.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629
Yeah, the more you watched the shows and the further the MCU films went on it got pretty apparent about their lack of really being canon, especially since Marvel Studios weren't making them with their own hands full.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,567
I'm not going down that rabbit hole for the upteenth time. The directors disagree with the writers, that's all I'll say.
You wanted to know people that believe Agent Carter is canon with Endgame, I gave you two that wrote the movie and produced the show. If you want to think that their opinion on the subject holds no water, well, power to you.
 

Saifu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,881
At this point, the truth is that Disney/ABC sold AoS fans (including myself) a lie that "it was all connected" all these years without Marvel Studios/Feige's consent.
I can also see why Marvel Studios/Feige don't feel like they should be responsible in addressing these questions since it was never their intention to create AoS to begin with.
Agent Carter, that's different story.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,061
so Peggy Carter and Jarvis just 'look' like the same people in Agent Carter? Because if they're actually the same characters then doesnt' that make Agent Carter part of the MCU? Which then leads to AoS through De Sousa
 

X05

Member
Oct 25, 2017
869
yeah most of the older series with huge expanded universes just leave it up to you, i don't always understand the chase for MCU recognition. if you liked the show and it mattered to you then it happened lol. it's not complicated
I think in most cases has to do with the fact that the MCU hasn't ended but is ever-expanding, so if a show you liked is now considered not canon it lowers the chances of seeing the characters (or the actors at least) in an MCU product again

In my case, I absolutely loved AoS (and its S4 is the best live-action content any part of Marvel has ever produced), but it being considered non-canon means it's very likely we won't be seeing its cast again
And that sucks real bad because its cast was fucking amazing
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
I think in most cases has to do with the fact that the MCU hasn't ended but is ever-expanding, so if a show you liked is now considered not canon it lowers the chances of seeing the characters (or the actors at least) in an MCU product again

In my case, I absolutely loved AoS (and its S4 is the best live-action content any part of Marvel has ever produced), but it being considered non-canon means it's very likely we won't be seeing its cast again
And that sucks real bad because its cast was fucking amazing
you are experiencing what every fan of a large expanded universe catalog has experienced. you either make peace or hope a fan eventually becomes a hollywood producer who will legitimize your pet show or work

i've been a fan of star trek since i was a kid and this is like not new territory at all lol
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,812
I will echo the sentiment that this was already known and widely acknowledged. I know some people disagree based on the lack of official confirmation or the casting of the same actors and I respect their opinion but for me it's clear that the only TV series that are part of the official MCU canon are those produced by Marvel Studios. Everything before Wandavision isn't canon.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,756
You wanted to know people that believe Agent Carter is canon with Endgame, I gave you two that wrote the movie and produced the show. If you want to think that their opinion on the subject holds no water, well, power to you.

In filmmaking the director trumps the writer, and I say that as a downtrodden writer myself. They can say what they want but the director's word is final.
 

Tbm24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,329
I will echo the sentiment that this was already known and widely acknowledged. I know some people disagree based on the lack of official confirmation or the casting of the same actors and I respect their opinion but for me it's clear that the only TV series that are part of the official MCU canon are those produced by Marvel Studios. Everything before Wandavision isn't canon.

Marvel did Agents of Shield dirty. Especially when the AoS - Winter Soldier tie in event happened.
 

Valiant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,310
Misleading thread title.

It was always known there was no coordination from the film side with the tv side at the time but the shows are canon to it.

So until Disney outrightly says that they aren't... they are.

Also move on... there's plenty of other things to pick over than whether or not the Netflix shows are canon.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
Marvel did Agents of Shield dirty. Especially when the AoS - Winter Soldier tie in event happened.

AoS deciding to have Inhumans be a major part of its overall plotline for multiple seasons when it was like an open secret that Fiege don't give a shit about them almost seems like a dare in hindsight.
 

deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,099
I think its quite an odd question where AoS and Agent Carter are concerned, with respect to canon. Both were sold as TV extensions of the marvel film world and more or less could work as canon. They had plot beats that went off directly from what happened in recent films (such as Hydra's secret infilration of Shield). AoS had appearances from Nick Fury and Lady Sif- not to mention Coulson (coming right off from what happened in Agengers). As for Agent Carter- no reason why it can't be canon- its what Peggy was up to after Steve left, so why can't she have adventures.

But the challenging thing is basically none of the "creative" was shared between these shows and the films. So the TV people were obviously taking inspiration/cues from the films, but films paid absolutely no mind to the TV world. Because there was no connect there, as far as the filmakers go, Coulson died in Avengers (even though he would up having tons of adventures in AoS).

Yes, someone like James Gunn would basically say the shows aren't canon, because they really aren't- for him.

But they most certainly did exist, did air- did pull from plots directly informed by the films- so for those who bothered to watch- don't tell us they aren't canon, lol.

So I guess the true answer as to whether these shows are canon or not is....it's complicated.

And I won't even get into Netflix too much, other than to say their ties are less strong, and they probably aren't canon, but MAYBE you might see some of the actors being recast in future canon products.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,977
He's wrong about Agent Carter, Feige produced that show and Jarvis appered in Endgame.

Doesn't matter, with the multiverse it means Agents of Shield, Agent Carter etc, all those adventures can be different universes and the same characters played by the same actors as the ones in the main MCU.

So you can have Charlie Cox's Daredevil in the next Spiderman but play a completely different Daredevil.
 

Ecotic

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,408
This is such a weird and awkward situation. You have the MCU expanding into in-house t.v. productions for release upon the flagship streaming service that Disney has bet the company's future on, but you also have these prototype quasi-MCU t.v. productions that existed previously. And for Disney's now-competitor no less.

Shows like Daredevil and The Punisher are the Zelda: Wand of Gamelon of the MCU. "Oh umm, shhh, it never happened."
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,957
fuck Iron Fist. he was the worst thing about Netflix MCU and the Defenders. Whenever his character is rebooted they need to recast and rewrite the shit outta him

Honestly everything about Danny Rand and Rand Corporation, K'un-Lun, and the underwhelming peak behind the curtain at the Hand was just awful.

Characters like Stick, Madame Gao, and Nobu were fantastic. Then it was like "oh here's a whole bunch of people you don't know that are actually their bosses!"

Plus from what little I've read it sounds like The Hand had nothing to do with K'un-Lun in the comics? Trying to tie all that together was an absolute mess.

And it was all to make Iron Fist seem like a big deal. What a joke.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,567
In filmmaking the director trumps the writer, and I say that as a downtrodden writer myself. They can say what they want but the director's word is final.
I don't think I agree with this at all. Ridley Scott is the only person involved in the production of the original Blade Runner that believes Deckard is a replicant, and he can say whatever he wants and retroactively add all the evidence he can, but the fact that the direct sequel avoided giving a clear-cut answer shows that there are people who have more to say than him, that prefer for the audience to come to their own conclusions. And one of these people was - you guessed it - the writer.
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,805
Agents of Shields problem wasn't that it wasn't canon, it was because it kinda was.

It being a stand alone show would have been perfectly fine, with no references to current MCU events.
and it being a MCU show would have been better as well.

But the whole phil coulson thing made it so weird, Phil who basically kickstarted the whole MCU and avengers along side Fury gets killed super early on, then gets rebuild to be both canon and non-canon.

I really dug Agent Carter both the One Shot and and the show as short as it was, loved the characters and the actors in that show. It's a bummer Hayley Atwell's stuck in the past, or at least would love to see another show in the past with her and the gang.