James Gunn confirms on Twitter that previous Marvel shows are not part of the MCU

[NinjaScooter]

He actually did help creatively when it came to his characters.

https://screenrant.com/avengers-infinity-war-gamora-death-james-gunn/

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The "aren't involved creatively" part wasn't meant to apply to Gunn, more to the EP credit in general. My point simply being that I think ultimately something like this would come from Feige or Marvel themselves, not James Gunn, before we can say with any certainty what the position of the TV shows are with regards to being "official canon", but Im also not sure it matters. Like if those shows and actors are never brought back does it really matter if they were canon or not? Its not like they (the Netflix shows specifically) were all that intertwined with the MCU other than vague references to "the green guy" and "the New York attack".

 

[Keyser S]

In my mind the other shows can all exist in separate multiverses, so they can cherry-pick any characters they want and transplant them into the MCU should they so wish. They have various forms of time travel, and are building various forms of multiverse lore/rules. They can do anything, and it would make sense.

And even better they can also abandon shit nobody wants to see again.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

i bet netflix marvel would have been more integrated into the MCU if the defenders thing wasn't a total wet fart

 

[Lotus]

I mean

Spoiler: Loki Spoilers

Loki confirmed that Coulson was dead at a perfect time to confirm the earlier TV stuff. If they wanted them to be cannon they could have done it then.

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Spoiler

Not that it matters anymore since it's not canon for other reasons, but their whole thing, as in, how Feige handles this stuff, is being intentionally vague.

They were never gonna just randomly talk about what happened after he died in a completely different show.

Also at the end of the day, Coulson technically is still dead lol

Anyways, we're literally dealing with multiverse shit now, so people can just view it as an alternate timeline

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Yeah, but Vicent's Kingpin in one, if no the best villian in the..MCU?(LOL) imagine him against Tom's Spidey OMG.

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It's difficult. On one hand, yes I absolutely would love to see more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin and Charlie Cox's Daredevil because they were just so damn good at it... on the other hand, the ending of Daredevil was just so damn good that it'd suck for it to continue past that.

 

[Deleted member 17388]

He's wrong about Agent Carter, Feige produced that show and Jarvis appered in Endgame.

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I guess is non-canon, since MS didn't have full production oversight, but we can assume a similar version of some events seen in the show happened in the MCU proper, i.e. James D'Arcy as Jarvis. (Probably the One-Shot is the thing canon plus him)

They can use the same logic to bring characters they want:

Daredevil played by Charlie Cox could enter the picture, yeah, just don't assume things that happened in the Netflix show are canon unless directly specified or shown, we can assume the broad strokes (Accident with radioactive waste, boxing father, lawyer firm) but the rest? Hallway fights, black costume, the Creel connection, St. Agnes with Quake, etc. is gone unless we are told.

And that's if they even want to bring him back.

But also, Multiverse.

 

[H.Cornerstone]

I think he's only wrong in that Agent Carter is Canon, but all the rest is not.

 

[maximumzero]

Charlie Cox will never get his due. What a fucking shame.

 

[Deleted member 83599]

It's pretty wild that DIsney let a dysfunctional corporate structure at Marvel result in a bunch of good TV seasons that are now basically wasted.

Jeph Loeb should have been reporting to Kevin Feige when those early MCU shows were being made. It's insane that he wasn't.

 

[Plinko]

If this was Kevin Feige saying it, it would hold some actual weight. He's 100% wrong about Agent Carter, and AoS even implemented movie storylines into early seasons.

 

[mrmoose]

I'm not even sure the shows were canon with each other. I know everyone (including me) wants to forget that Inhumans mini ever existed, but was that supposed to be in the same world as Agents of Shield, because I don't remember them ever reconciling the earth Inhumans with Black Bolt's ones.

But AoS and Peggy were absolutely supposed to tie in, though I think the tv side cared more about it than the movie side. Which boggles my mind. Obviously the huge events like the snap can't be in real time but like comics have done throughout history you can always explain that away. The tv shows would've been a lot more popular if they put just a little more care and effort into tying them together. Like we had Sif show up and then that was that.

 

[Lotus]

i bet netflix marvel would have been more integrated into the MCU if the defenders thing wasn't a total wet fart

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No, it never had a chance.

AoS had Coulson as the leader, and had major cameos like Nick Fury. And it was actively affected by at least one MCU movie.

Netflix in comparison just had the setting of New York, but that was it. No real references, no cameos as far as I know, the movies didn't affect it, the characters themselves were weirdly scared to even directly name the Avengers until like Jessica Jones' 3rd season for some weird reason...

Unlike AoS, the Netflix never made any real attempt to keep up the ruse.

 

[SilkySm00th]

SHIELD always felt like a show that responded to the movies. Not a series that was running parallel to everything happening in MCU proper. They confirmed as much multiple times through out that show and all the Netflix stuff when info/changes/characters only flowed one way. Information and events from the movies would be referenced in the shows but Marvel went out of their specifically to not inverse that activity and never mentioned the shows at all in any of the main flicks.

Daredevil and the Punisher are the only two reeeeaaally sad losses here as they probably will never be folded in proper and were fuckin pitch perfect.

 

[davepoobond]

If it doesn't have that marvel studios banner in front of it, it isn't MCU

 

[The Artisan]

Canon is such a silly concept. Just watch some good shows. Personally I think Daredevil, SHIELD and Jessica Jones eclipses quite a few of the movies. Agent Carter was really good too.

Both SHIELD and Carter explicitly ties to the MCU in many ways, with actors coming over from the films. Just consider them variants if it really bothers you.

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How is canon a silly concept? It is the de facto storytelling mechanic that connects different stories together.

No, it never had a chance.

AoS had Coulson as the leader, and had major cameos like Nick Fury. And it was actively affected by at least one MCU movie.

Netflix in comparison just had the setting of New York, but that was it. No real references, no cameos as far as I know, the movies didn't affect it, the characters themselves were weirdly scared to even directly name the Avengers until like Jessica Jones' 3rd season for some weird reason...

Unlike AoS, the Netflix never made any real attempt to keep up the ruse.

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Captain America was namedropped in the first season of Daredevil

 

[Judau]

Well,

Spoiler: answer

Loki wouldn't know any better since Coulson being alive is kept secret beyond Shield.

So that's not much of an argument IMO. But yeah, I don't consider them canon either, no matter how much I liked them.

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Someone said that Coulson being alive wouldn't have been relevant to that scene or to Loki. Coulson's resurrection, at least, may or may not be canon considering. The rest of the show almost definitely isn't, unless Marvel says otherwise.

Fillion is in Gunn's Suicide Squad, and he cameos in Guardians of the Galaxy as the big blue alien prisoner. Florenace is a senator in Wonder Woman, Randall is in Aquaman.

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I must have missed Florence in WW, unless she's in 1984, which I haven't seen. I definitely missed Randall, since I have yet to watch Aquaman.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

No, it never had a chance.

AoS had Coulson as the leader, and had major cameos like Nick Fury. And it was actively affected by at least one MCU movie.

Netflix in comparison just had the setting of New York, but that was it. No real references, no cameos as far as I know, the movies didn't affect it, the characters themselves were weirdly scared to even directly name the Avengers until like Jessica Jones' 3rd season for some weird reason...

Unlike AoS, the Netflix never made any real attempt to keep up the ruse.

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daredevil and jessica jones got very wide praise and lots of media attention initially so i think they of all the characters had a shot. i think the stink of iron fist and the general distaste for the defenders sunk them

 

[Koklusz]

They can use the same logic to bring characters they want:

Daredevil played by Charlie Cox could enter the picture, yeah, just don't assume things that happened in the Netflix show are canon unless directly specified or shown, we can assume the broad strokes (Accident with radioactive waste, boxing father, lawyer firm) but the rest? Hallway fights, black costume, the Creel connection, St. Agnes with Quake, etc. is gone unless we are told.

And that's if they even want to bring him back.

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The Lucasfilm maneuver.

 

[Jmdajr]

It's shitty of me, but if I had known from day one it wasn't part of the MCU, I might have never watched them. Just being honest.

Saying that, I enjoyed Daredevil and Jessica Jones\Luke Cage had it's moments.

 

[thewienke]

There was a lot of quality in the Netflix shows so I'm a little surprised they'd want to distance themselves from those.

Although they got questionable toward the end there with Defenders and Iron Fist. I'm not sure how it was in the comics but hyping up Madame Gao as some kind of mystical omnipotent superhuman across several seasons just to make her play second fiddle to Sigourney Weaver was one of the bigger mistakes. Next to Cottonmouth's super quick demise anyway (yeah I get the actor was limited but damn if he shouldn't have been the big bad).

 

[Jiraiya]

Well yea. You could tell because they had no impact at all on on the mcu and vice versa.

 

[SoEl]

Mahershala Ali playing two major characters was the final confirmation.

 

[Tathanen]

People def cite Endgame Jarvis as the smoking gun for Agent Carter canonicity but that's like saying Far from Home's JK Simmons appearance makes those older spidey movies canon. You can bring in an actor for a role as an homage without it instantly making the originating media canonical.

Still might be canon! But might not be. Not conclusive either way.

 

[Jarmel]

canon stans breh

 

[Dalek]

If this was Kevin Feige saying it, it would hold some actual weight. He's 100% wrong about Agent Carter, and AoS even implemented movie storylines into early seasons.

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Well again-the same actors from Agent Carter can exist in the MCU and the Television universe. It doesn't mean the events are canon. JK Simmons is JJJ in both the Sony and MCU universes.

 

[Dalek]

If it doesn't have that marvel studios banner in front of it, it isn't MCU

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Basically. If it says "Marvel" it's not. If it says "Marvel Studios" it is.

 

[Lemony1984]

Yeah, unless Feige comes out and says the same thing, this is only his opinion. Agent Carter is MCU, they even reused the same actor for Jarvis.

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That doesn't mean the events of the show are canon. It's just a nod.

 

[Deleted member 17388]

I, for one, am glad to have a chance to see Patsy Walker 😊

Bring her with Hedy Wolfe and Millie into a Disney+ show.

 

[Lotus]

I'm not even sure the shows were canon with each other. I know everyone (including me) wants to forget that Inhumans mini ever existed, but was that supposed to be in the same world as Agents of Shield, because I don't remember them ever reconciling the earth Inhumans with Black Bolt's ones.

But AoS and Peggy were absolutely supposed to tie in, though I think the tv side cared more about it than the movie side.

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AoS and Carter were canon to each other yea, last season even brought back a character from Agent Carter.

Inhumans... Yea, it was so offensively bad that literally everyone just pretends it doesn't exist.

This is how it was implied but I dont think we ever got official confirmation from Fiege or anyone. They always left room in case they wanted to bring them closer in to the MCU, and they didnt want to tell people not to watch since they werent canon or whatever.

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Pretty much. Feige (unlike a lot of people around here) doesn't have a hard-on for telling people stuff isn't canon.

I mean it's obvious he doesn't feel it is, but he doesn't feel the need to unnecessarily upset fans with a hard confirmation from himself that none of it is canon

How is canon a silly concept? It is the de facto storytelling mechanic that puts connects different stories together.

Captain America was namedropped in the first season of Daredevil

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Fair enough lol, but I distinctly remember us on Era/the old place making jokes about how they'd be weirdly reluctant to name the Avengers for the most part.

Mahershala Ali playing two major characters was the final confirmation.

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No, the Snap was.

daredevil and jessica jones got very wide praise and lots of media attention initially so i think they of all the characters had a shot. i think the stink of iron fist and the general distaste for the defenders sunk them

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Nah, it's clear that at the end of the day, if they didn't come up with it themselves in the MCU studios proper, they don't really want to acknowledge it. There's a reason why only Agent Carter got any acknowledgment.

Of course someone as big as Daredevil has a shot at getting adapted, but specifically Netflix Daredevil? As in, you completely keep his storyline and supporting cast? In hindsight, we were naive for thinking it would ever happen.

Though yes, I agree that the 1-2 punch of Iron Fist and Defenders certainly didn't help.

 

[Deleted member 17388]

And Inhumans pls! (:

 

[Zomba13]

Like always the canon flows from the MCU into the TV shows like a river. Things float into them but don't go upstream. Netflix and AoS reference the movies but the movies are all "I don't know her" to the TV stuff.

Only exception is Jarvis but he built a boat and rowed upstream.

 

[Cross]

Spoiler

If Charlie Cox is in Spiderman or something that would have to make the show canon no? And I haven't read any spoilers for no way home just remember conjecture that he might be in it.

Spoiler just in case for Spiderman no way home although I don't know if what I said is actually true.

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Spoiler

Charlie Cox could be playing a version of Daredevil, not necessarily the Netflix, similar to the JJ Jameson situation

 

[Lotus]

People def cite Endgame Jarvis as the smoking gun for Agent Carter canonicity but that's like saying Far from Home's JK Simmons appearance makes those older spidey movies canon. You can bring in an actor for a role as an homage without it instantly making the originating media canonical.

Still might be canon! But might not be. Not conclusive either way.

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That's not a good example since JK Simmons is obviously playing a different version of the character... in a world with a different Spider-Man. Meanwhile there's really nothing to talk about Jarvis showing up in Endgame, don't have anything to work with to make the argument that he's not the same one from Agent Carter, as it was just a brief cameo.

But given that Agent Carter was produced by Feige and what not, as well as Jarvis being the first original TV show character to actually appear in the movies, I'll stick with Occam's Razor of the show being canon in a way the other pre-Disney+ shows simply weren't.

 

[Koklusz]

People def cite Endgame Jarvis as the smoking gun for Agent Carter canonicity but that's like saying Far from Home's JK Simmons appearance makes those older spidey movies canon. You can bring in an actor for a role as an homage without it instantly making the originating media canonical.

Still might be canon! But might not be. Not conclusive either way.

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It's the only "MCU" TV show that was directly referenced in movies in any shape or form, it doesn't get more conclusive than this.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

Loki Spoilers just in case

Spoiler

As I said it before everything, including Nic Cage's Ghost Rider and Dolph Lundgreen's Punisher, are now part of the multiverse in the MCU. They may be variants or whatever, but they are all part of the multiverse.

Main MCU timeline? Only stuff that Papa Feige has personally overseen AND has the MARVEL STUDIOS logo on it. That means anything pre Wandavision, including Agent Carter, is not part of it.

 

[Zippedpinhead]

They are out until they are in, like everything comic book, kept canon until it doesn't work then throw it out only to bring it back when it suits the story/sells tickets/comics

 

[The Artisan]

daredevil and jessica jones got very wide praise and lots of media attention initially so i think they of all the characters had a shot. i think the stink of iron fist and the general distaste for the defenders sunk them

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Luke Cage was so hyped when it first premiered on Netflix, that their servers crashed for a couple of hours that Saturday

Fair enough lol, but I distinctly remember us on Era/the old place making jokes about how they'd be weirdly reluctant to name the Avengers for the most part.

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yeah, I've seen a lot of YouTube channels that cover a lot of MCU stuff saying how weirdly reluctant the Netflix characters were to namedrop Avengers characters. It is very weird, but the fact that they do in fact namedrop makes me feel like it was nothing more than a choice to have them in the dialogue obscurely. Tony Stark was also namedropped in the first episode of Luke Cage

 

[Tathanen]

That's not a good example since JK Simmons is obviously playing a different version of the character... in a world with a different Spider-Man. Meanwhile there's really to talk about Jarvis showing up in Endgame, don't have anything to work with to make the argument that he's not the same one from Agent Carter.

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Just like FFH JK Simmons, Endgame Jarvis has different hair. QED, tbh.

 

[thewienke]

Pretty much. Feige (unlike a lot of people around here) doesn't have a hard-on for telling people stuff isn't canon.

I mean it's obvious he doesn't feel it is, but he doesn't feel the need to unnecessarily upset fans with a hard confirmation from himself that none of it is canon

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Doesn't hurt to keep his options open also.

They also just got the rights back to Daredevil and all them back in December I think? Considering they plan things out years and years in advance, they might not have nailed down what they want to do yet.

 

[super-heated plasma]

Look, even as a huge fan of some of the Marvel Television shows, I get his point. But to say that there was no coordination whatsoever is just a blatant lie. Kevin Feige himself was an executive producer in Agent Carter, and James D'Arcy's Jarvis makes an appearance in Endgame. I'm not saying the whole thing is canon, but to say that they were two completely separate worlds is not being fair.

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Sam Jacksons Nick Fury was in an AOS episode.

 

[Kernel]

If they really are bringing Charlie Cox back to play Daredevil, I'd assume anything that happened in the Netflix shows would fall under "it happened if you want it to have happened".

They could go one step further and bring back Vincent D'Onofrio to play Kingpin too but I'd be pretty disappointed if they just acted like the finale never happened.

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If Charlie Cox returns to play Daredevil then I'd imagine it's be from a different multiverse although many things would probably be similar like Electra and Kingpin etc.

 

[Deleted member 49482]

I've always just assumed the TV universes are non-canon until we see otherwise. It's clear there was a level of coordination between the movie division and AoS and Agent Carter, but I still don't consider that as a de facto indication of canon. It seems more like they wanted those shows and the movies to be able to reasonably live alongside each other without contradicting each other, but also without the TV shows having any effect on the movie world.

 

[Deleted member 17388]

Sam Jacksons Nick Fury was in an AOS episode.

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They also cleaned the set of Thor 2: The Dark World

 

[Koukalaka]

This will forever be the biggest misstep of the entire MCU

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Hopefully it's more of a "we'll take what we want" sort of situation where Charlie Cox can still be Daredevil and keep the same supporting cast.

 

[Forsaken82]

Yeah, unless Feige comes out and says the same thing, this is only his opinion. Agent Carter is MCU, they even reused the same actor for Jarvis.

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And Agents of Shield literally had a tie in to Thor 2 (on top of the entire premise of Coulson not being dead...)

I think the only real argument here is that the MOVIES aren't canon to the shows, but the shows are absolutely canon to the movies (or is it the other way around?). And Daredevil S1 literally calls attention to the Hulk vs Abomination fight from Incredible Hulk as well as the Alien attack on New York from Avengers. The movies may never be referenced again outside of easter eggs and character call outs, but at one point the shows absolutely existed together with the movies even if there were attempts to distance

 

[Griffy]

Well again-the same actors from Agent Carter can exist in the MCU and the Television universe. It doesn't mean the events are canon. JK Simmons is JJJ in both the Sony and MCU universes.

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I don't know, he's clearly playing a different version of the character in FFH, which may tie into the multiverse shenanigans. Jarvis seems more cut and dry, the only reason to even have James D'Arcy there is as a direct call back to Agent Carter (and the different hair is because it's a different time period, obviously).

And people are ignoring the larger, more important point that Agent Carter was not run by the same TV division, but was under control by the film division creatives. It was spawned by the Agent Carter one-shot which was produced by Marvel Studios and Feige, it was created by Marcus and McFeely who also wrote the first episode and remained creatively involved after that. Notably, Agent Carter is the only Marvel show before the Disney + series that Feige has a producer credit on.

 

[Deleted member 30544]

And Agents of Shield literally had a tie in to Thor 2.

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And addressed the events of Winter Soldier no? (Don't remember )

 

[MGPanda]

Sam Jacksons Nick Fury was in an AOS episode.

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That's true, and Lady Sif and Gideon Malick as well!

And addressed the events of Winter Soldier no? (Don't remember )

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It was basically the point in which the show went from a dumpster fire to a really, really good Marvel production.

 

[cognizant]

I think he's only wrong in that Agent Carter is Canon, but all the rest is not.

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It's not canon, in that nothing in that show has any bearing on the filmmakers plans in the MCU, they are no doubt free to contradict the show if they wish, and if Feige likes their script. I think the Russos simply liked the actor for Jarvis and re-used him. The didn't cast him because "the show is canon", they didn't need to respect the story of it in any way. Otherwise they could have re-cast the actor who played Stark's father as well. I mean, that show itself blatantly re-used one of the main actors who had previously appeared as a cop in Avengers 1 during the battle of NY.

The pre-Disney shows simply used the MCU as a springboard for their premise, that's really all it boils down to. The idea that they were canon was always nuts, because why would Feige give up such power to a disparate bunch of filmmakers across multiple channels, who could influence the narrative of the MCU? The answer is: he wouldn't. Right now, the Disney+ set-up is perfect for him, he can create the big scope narrative in peace.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I mean, he's 100% wrong about Agent Carter. They went out of their way to let fans know that's canon in Endgame.