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Jaime losing his hand...

  • Transformed him (Losing it humbled him and forced him to become a kinder person)

    Votes: 353 73.4%
  • Revealed him (Kingslayer was just a persona, he was always a decent guy but hid that due to hate)

    Votes: 128 26.6%

  • Total voters
    481

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,672
Jaime was set up to have one of the greatest redemption arcs in fiction, and while that may still happen in the books, the show ruined it all in just one episode.

re: the hand thing - he was definitely changed by it, though I wouldn't credit the hand chopping for his entire evolution throughout the series - Brienne did a lot to change him from being a toxic PoS into an actual honorable knight.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
In the end his own character development got thrown out a damn window so poetic justice I guess...

Shit sucks.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,620
He threw a child off a tower for catching him boning with his sister! Why are people talking about redemption
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,868
Seemed kind of clear that he was an absolute prick and losing his hand knocked some serious humility into him.

He cockily pushed a boy out the window. Killed his (cousin?) to escape a cage, killed soldiers brutally in situations he himself was the aggressor, mocked and belittled people trying to help him.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
In the end his own character development got thrown out a damn window so poetic justice I guess...

Shit sucks.

I hate that so much. I thought he was finally realising how messed up his family was and how the best thing for him would be to leave them all behind and never look back, especially with such a wonderful woman that doesn't care about his name or his family waiting for him, but...

nope.
 
Nov 7, 2019
306
Jaime had a great ending.

His character was deeply flawed and made great strides of progress as the show went on but ultimately he had his vice which was his sister. Running back to her in the end is a realistic outcome and very indicative of exactly the type of character building Game of Thrones has had since the beginning.

The story isn't designed to go the way most stories do.
 

Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,646
Show Jaime was great until the last season. Like everyone else.

Book Jaime is a different beast in that he's taking charge of the realm when he doesn't want to. His sister desperately wants to rule but she can't, because she's not as clever as she thinks, and Jaime doesn't want but he's the only one, currently, fit for it. It's a great parallelism between the two siblings. So to answer the question, the... I'm not saying good but I'll say capable guy was always there, he just got lazy and complacent once he killed Aerys and nobody took him seriously. He was happy to have Cersei and a white cape. But when it came to him to take action he actually surprised himself at how good? he was.

That said I'm pretty sure he'll get fucked in WoW, whenever the book arrives. He was on a good streak and we know what characters get when too many good things happen in a row...
 

Cudpug

Member
Nov 9, 2017
3,569
Probably the character done the dirtiest in the show's final season. Sure Varys suddenly became an idiot and Dany went nuts, but Jaime really hurt - he went from having a really well written character arc with tons of development to throwing it all away.

And it sucks because if Cersei had died alone and her last thoughts were of what she lost due to her behaviour - including Jaime - it would have been infinitely more effective.

What a trainwreck and such a disappointment.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,466
Mostly transformed. There was always a bit of conflict in him but destroying his warrior persona and meeting Brienne was an essential seismic shift

Probably the character done the dirtiest in the show's final season. Sure Varys suddenly became an idiot and Dany went nuts, but Jaime really hurt - he went from having a really well written character arc with tons of development to throwing it all away.

And it sucks because if Cersei had died alone and her last thoughts were of what she lost due to her behaviour - including Jaime - it would have been infinitely more effective.

What a trainwreck and such a disappointment.

Honestly, it was clear the showrunners just weren't down with Jaime's overall character arc as far back as Season 4. I don't know what ending GRRM has planned for him but there was no reason for D&D to alter things to the extent they did when he got back to Kings Landing.
 

N64Controller

Member
Nov 2, 2017
8,387
Show Jaime was great until the last season. Like everyone else.

Book Jaime is a different beast in that he's taking charge of the realm when he doesn't want to. His sister desperately wants to rule but she can't, because she's not as clever as she thinks, and Jaime doesn't want but he's the only one, currently, fit for it. It's a great parallelism between the two siblings. So to answer the question, the... I'm not saying good but I'll say capable guy was always there, he just got lazy and complacent once he killed Aerys and nobody took him seriously. He was happy to have Cersei and a white cape. But when it came to him to take action he actually surprised himself at how good? he was.

That said I'm pretty sure he'll get fucked in WoW, whenever the book arrives. He was on a good streak and we know what characters get when too many good things happen in a row...

Yep. Book Jaime is pretty much my favorite character along with Reek/Theon. He's a great flawed character, like a lot of them are. Can't wait for Winds of Winter ...

I don't mind if he gets a bad ending, I just don't want his character to be flushed down the toilet like it was on the show. And I don't think it will happen.
 

BlueTsunami

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,515
Definitely transformed. That sort of trauma and being imprisoned made him reflect over his actions and his family. Man, where the fuck is the new book 😔
 

Hystzen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,412
Manchester UK
Show Jaime had a scene where assassins paid to kill him and his brother admit they sent by Cersei and he still rides off to be with her. I mean what the actual fuck is that about
 

Superbagman

Member
Nov 3, 2017
347
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Jamie changes at all. After he lost his hand he raped his sister next to his illegitimate son's dead body. He may have gotten *some* humility, but he's still awful.
 

pants

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,242
Ah but there is some other place Jaime can get what he wants, and even the show was forced to acknowledge that.

He has another hot twin sister he can fuck? One who knows him intimately, and knows how to press all of his buttons?

The tragedy of his character is that he has a shot at real happiness, but it does nothing for him. He wants Cersei. Brienne of Tarth, knighthood, and a redemption arc aren't Cersei. Her being family is gross to us, but to Jamie it makes whatever weird bond they have that much harder to shrug off.

This beat is depressing to see play out, but if you don't think its realistic then you just haven't lived enough. Some people only understand toxic relationships.
 
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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
My theory reading the books is that the Martin fell in love with his own character and started sweeping his shittier side under the rug, much like Ann Rice did with Lestat.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,434
I've only seen the show, and they botch him hard so can't really say

He was never a good person, but occasionally made the right decision. Losing the hand definitely humbled him into doing that more often.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,138
The show has no logical character development.

With book Jaime it isn't primarily about his Hand or losing Cersei, it is about Tywin dying (the HAND is actually a symbolic nod to Tywin and Jaime's future, as Tywin was the Hand of the King and Jaime will eclipse him in that position). Tywin dying leaves a void that for the good of the realm someone must fill, and the only person willing and able will be Jaime. The role is that of doing the dishonourable for the greater good, such as threatening to load a baby into trebuchet to end a siege peacefully. Under the umbrella of Tywin's protection Jaime could afford to play the reckless uncaring child, without Tywin it's either Jaime does it or nobody does and the realm pays. Jaime's willingness to stand dishonour and the realm's hatred for the sake of a greater cause is meant to contrast with Tyrion who above all else craves love.

To the question of if it made him or was it always in him - it has always been in him. He cut down the king he was sworn to protect, then hunted the pyromancers down like dogs. He is ruthless, calculating and logical in his cause. The problem was after having been judged the kingslayer he went off the rails and rather than serve a greater good he began serving was his own selfishness and Cersei.

People think it's about good and bad, or from dishonourable to honourable, they're wrong, it isn't. It is from selfishness to servant. Jaime's future is to be the realm's greatest servant, that means doing even more vile heinous shit than he has already done in the realm's service. The king eats, the Hand takes the shit. He's also likely to be tortured and mutilated further than just his hand, he is to give over everything he holds personally, including his body, for the realm.

I disagree with this insomuch as you are giving Jaime too much credit pre-hand loss. Now, I love Jaime. He's probably my favorite character in the books. But, Jaime was not some honorable knight who only did what was right for the greater good. The very reason he was scorned as the Kingslayer is because of Jaime's own pride. He refused to explain himself because the act of killing Aerys destroyed his illusion of what knighthood and honor meant. Instead, he became a walking parody of what a knight should be. It took losing his hand and witnessing Brienne for him to remember what knighthood and honor meant.

I don't see Jaime's end character arc as becoming the new Twyin Lannister, that is something Tyrion will grapple with. Rather, his arc is about coming to grips with what it means to be a knight and smashing the illusions he's been living under concerning his own family.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,230
Sydney
He has another hot twin sister he can fuck? One who knows him intimately, and knows how to press all of his buttons?

The tragedy of his character is that he has a shot at real happiness, but it does nothing for him. He wants Cersei. Brienne of Tarth, knighthood, and a redemption arc aren't Cersei. Her being family is gross to us, but to Jamie it makes whatever weird bond they have that much harder to shrug off.

This beat is depressing to see play out, but if you don't think its realistic then you just haven't lived enough. Some people only understand toxic relationships.

Ah but the rub is book Cersei does not know how to press his buttons, and it's not just burning the letter, a thing that doesn't happen in the show (because they did not want to portray it).

When she sneaks into White Sword Tower to seduce him, to induce him to kill Tyrion, and to go with her to Casterly Rock, he wants none of it. He throws her out. In the show however, in the same scene, he gives in and has sex with her. They have him make the opposite choice in the adaptation.

Whilst the show never got deeper than "fucked up Jaime keeps going back to his ex", the book is clearly not letting that play out, by repeatedly showing him doing different things.
 

pants

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,242
Ah but the rub is book Cersei does not know how to press his buttons, and it's not just burning the letter, a thing that doesn't happen in the show (because they did not want to portray it).

When she sneaks into White Sword Tower to seduce him, to induce him to kill Tyrion, and to go with her to Casterly Rock, he wants none of it. He throws her out. In the show however, in the same scene, he gives in and has sex with her. They have him make the opposite choice in the adaptation.

Whilst the show never got deeper than "fucked up Jaime keeps going back to his ex", the book is clearly not letting that play out, by repeatedly showing him doing different things.

Disagree; Cersei knows how to press his buttons, he just stubbornly tries to avoid letting himself be played by her. Pride is a hell of a thing. I think the core character beats still work the same, and overlap, the book just does a way better job of characterizing how hard he struggles to do better than his base instincts. It makes his doom all the more tragic.

I firmly believe him dying by her side is in Martin's liner notes, it'll just make sense to most people and actually be told well when we read it.
 
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Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
987
I disagree with this insomuch as you are giving Jaime too much credit pre-hand loss. Now, I love Jaime. He's probably my favorite character in the books. But, Jaime was not some honorable knight who only did what was right for the greater good. The very reason he was scorned as the Kingslayer is because of Jaime's own pride. He refused to explain himself because the act of killing Aerys destroyed his illusion of what knighthood and honor meant. Instead, he became a walking parody of what a knight should be. It took losing his hand and witnessing Brienne for him to remember what knighthood and honor meant.

I don't see Jaime's end character arc as becoming the new Twyin Lannister, that is something Tyrion will grapple with. Rather, his arc is about coming to grips with what it means to be a knight and smashing the illusions he's been living under concerning his own family.
No he is not rediscovering honour, honour is a horse, a joke, a luxury those with lesser concerns can afford but not him. He threatens to launch a child in a trebuchet because honour means less to him than doing what needs doing. I didn't say Jaime began as an honourable knight acting for the greater good, the greater good and the honourable action are often contradictory, that's the point the character exists to explain. He sides with the greater cause over honour more so than any other character, and will continue to do so, that's what makes him unique and will make him a good Hand for the times.

Jaime becoming the new Tywin shouldn't be debatable, Jaime's arc is the furthest developed of all the characters to the point where GRRM is putting it out there plain. GRRM has Genna explain what Tywin meant to her and the realm, and then tell Jaime he's not like him. The rest of that chapter and future Jaime chapters are then dedicated to Jaime proving Genna wrong as he repeatedly does the Tywin.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,326
It transformed him in the books. I mean, he was never as bad as he seemed in the first book, but the perspective of why he did things (to protect his family at all costs) was his primary motivation and he came to understand that world view was flawed and leaving everyone worse off.

In the show I guess he raped his sister and then undid everything afterword's.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,230
Sydney
Disagree; Cersei knows how to press his buttons, he just stubbornly tries to avoid letting himself be played by her. Pride is a hell of a thing. I think the core character beats still work the same, and overlap, the book just does a way better job of characterizing how hard he struggles to do better than his base instincts. It makes his doom all the more tragic.

I firmly believe him dying by her side is in Martin's liner notes, it'll just make sense to most people and actually be told well when we read it.

Sorry but when the character is making the polar opposite decisions he did in the show with regards to his relationship with his sister, that's not a better/deeper characterization, it's a different one.

Now, I think it's overwhelmingly likely he still dies at the end of the story in King's Landing, but I don't think it'll be because he wants to be with Cersei.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
I thought Joffrey's sword was "Widow's Wail" or something like that lol...only seen the show, though.

Joffrey's first sword was called Lion's Tooth. Renly Baratheon even mocks it after the incident at the Trident when Arya throws his sword into the river

When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey's sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. "Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes."
Lord Renly stifled his laughter. "My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself." He bowed to Joffrey. "Perchance later you'll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river." As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, "Lion's Tooth," and guffaw once more.
My theory reading the books is that the Martin fell in love with his own character and started sweeping his shittier side under the rug, much like Ann Rice did with Lestat.
This is correct. If one takes a look at GRRM's original outline for the planned trilogy, Jaime Lannister was the big bad. Cersei did not even exist as a character. We can see hints of it in the first book. It's Jaime who decides to kill Bran - Cersei tries to stop him. Jaime who hunts down Arya Stark to kill her when she's on the run in the Trident. He's a pretty terrible person in terms of morality. But suddenly when we come to book 3, Jaime is getting his so called 'redemption arc' and Cersei becomes the one dimensionally evil cartoon villain in the books. I did like that the show gave Cersei more complexity and better writing.

Also, just a reminder, that Jaime only abandons Cersei in the last book because he learns about her infidelity. Not because he becomes a better person, or he is humbled or because of Brienne or anything like that. He abandons her because he learns about her affairs and his pride takes a hit. That's all.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
987
This is correct. If one takes a look at GRRM's original outline for the planned trilogy, Jaime Lannister was the big bad. Cersei did not even exist as a character. We can see hints of it in the first book. It's Jaime who decides to kill Bran - Cersei tries to stop him. Jaime who hunts down Arya Stark to kill her when she's on the run in the Trident. He's a pretty terrible person in terms of morality. But suddenly when we come to book 3, Jaime is getting his so called 'redemption arc' and Cersei becomes the one dimensionally evil cartoon villain in the books. I did like that the show gave Cersei more complexity and better writing.

Also, just a reminder, that Jaime only abandons Cersei in the last book because he learns about her infidelity. Not because he becomes a better person, or he is humbled or because of Brienne or anything like that. He abandons her because he learns about her affairs and his pride takes a hit. That's all.
Cersei uses Jaime to keep her hands and conscience clean. It is a character trait of hers to use others to do her dirty work and feign ignorance in her mind as it suits. There is no redirection, Jaime always existed to explore the contradiction in oaths and honour to higher service, be it to house, realm or humanity.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,138
No he is not rediscovering honour, honour is a horse, a joke, a luxury those with lesser concerns can afford but not him. He threatens to launch a child in a trebuchet because honour means less to him than doing what needs doing. I didn't say Jaime began as an honourable knight acting for the greater good, the greater good and the honourable action are often contradictory, that's the point the character exists to explain. He sides with the greater cause over honour more so than any other character, and will continue to do so, that's what makes him unique and will make him a good Hand for the times.

Jaime becoming the new Tywin shouldn't be debatable, Jaime's arc is the furthest developed of all the characters to the point where GRRM is putting it out there plain. GRRM has Genna explain what Tywin meant to her and the realm, and then tell Jaime he's not like him. The rest of that chapter and future Jaime chapters are then dedicated to Jaime proving Genna wrong as he repeatedly does the Tywin.

You've got this all wrong.

First of all, Honor is not a joke or some luxury not to be taken seriously. Ned Stark getting his head chopped off because he adhered to honor is not a condemnation of honor in favor of the harsh real politique of Tywin Lannister. Rather, the series has shown how Ned's honor carries forward even after his death, his name and word still means something to the various people and nobles in Westeros. Further, his strong affection towards his family continues amongst his descendants who wish to do everything to retain their bonds to each other.

Meanwhile, we see that for all of Tywin's cold and calculating scheming his entire family and legacy fell apart the moment he died. And, while he was running things everyone was biding their time to screw him over because he had no honor and endeared no love from the people he ruled. Jaime is not learning to become more like Tywin, it's just the opposite. Brienne showed Jaime what a true knight looks like, something he no longer believed existed. And yet, she is not even a real knight. This is what begins to reawaken that old spirit within him. It's why he gives Brienne Oathkeeper and tasks her with finding Sansa Stark when he had no reason to do so, why he suddenly finds Cersei so distasteful, why he achieves so much success in the Riverlands. He's no longer a jaded warrior that thinks only through the point of his sword, he's trying to become better.

When he threatens Edmure at Riverrun we know that he's bluffing, but he uses the public perception of the Kingslayer to get Edmure to believe he is willing to make good on the threat. But, he would never have actually done it. Jaime still cynically pretends that honor means "shit" but it's all an act because he still cares very much. You left out the best part of his exchange with the Blackfish:

AFFC said:
I had no hand in Lady Catelyn's death, he might have said, and her daughters were gone before I reached King's Landing. It was on his tongue to speak of Brienne and the sword he'd given her, but the Blackfish was looking at him the way that Eddard Stark had looked at him when he'd found him on the Iron Throne with the Mad King's blood upon his blade. "I came to speak of the living, not the dead. Of those who need not die, but shall . . ."

This inner thought is important as it shows how much Jaime still cares about his character and how is pride can still get the better of him. He could easily clear this up with the Blackfish, but he refuses to because he dislikes the way his honor has been questioned, the same way Ned Stark judged him before he could explain himself. So, he keeps silent.

The whole chapter ends with his aunt telling him that it was Tyrion, not Jaime himself, that was Tywin's true son. Jaime can never be the kind of individual that Tywin was, but he can become his own person. The most important thing about Jaime's arc is the dream he has under the weirwood tree that includes Brienne:

AFFC said:
"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. "I swore to keep you safe," the wench said stubbornly. "I swore an oath." Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. "Ser. Please. If you would be so good."

The steel links parted like silk. "A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought.In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"Sister!" he shouted. "Stay with me. Stay!" There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman's shape now.

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. "A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom."

...

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

"No," he said, "no, no, no. Nooooooooo!"

There is a lot of symbolism here but an important note is that Jaime's flame dims when confronted by his ghosts while only Brienne's flame remains. To me this speaks to Jaime's redemption. Jaime's fate is tied with Brienne's fate, his sword flame gutters out because it is his old life as a swordsman. He still clings to his sword even in his dreams, but his sword was responsible for many misdeeds. However, the sword he gave Brienne was given to fulfill an oath and help redeem his honor. Brienne completing her task is tied with Jaime reclaiming his honor and becoming a better person.

His dream is not a call to be more like Tywin, to be more ruthless and callous for the greater good. Instead, it's purely about confronting his perceived past failures as a knight with only Brienne there to defend him, naked. Jaime is not going to become a new Tywin, he's trying to become who he was meant to be, who he was supposed to be before becoming disillusioned.

This is correct. If one takes a look at GRRM's original outline for the planned trilogy, Jaime Lannister was the big bad. Cersei did not even exist as a character. We can see hints of it in the first book. It's Jaime who decides to kill Bran - Cersei tries to stop him. Jaime who hunts down Arya Stark to kill her when she's on the run in the Trident. He's a pretty terrible person in terms of morality. But suddenly when we come to book 3, Jaime is getting his so called 'redemption arc' and Cersei becomes the one dimensionally evil cartoon villain in the books. I did like that the show gave Cersei more complexity and better writing.

Also, just a reminder, that Jaime only abandons Cersei in the last book because he learns about her infidelity. Not because he becomes a better person, or he is humbled or because of Brienne or anything like that. He abandons her because he learns about her affairs and his pride takes a hit. That's all.

This is not true, it was a long time build up. Remember, Jaime refuses to sleep with Cersei in the White Sword tower because he still respects the place so much. She then makes a cruel jab at him. Tyrion's last words linger in his mind, but he doesn't actually believe them at first. Rather, as he slowly watches as Cersei rules he begins to finally see who she truly is and his experience with Brienne has shown him a different kind of woman. It's not pride that he abandons Cersei, it's the wool being pulled from his eyes. She never loved him as he loved her.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
Cersei uses Jaime to keep her hands and conscience clean. It is a character trait of hers to use others to do her dirty work and feign ignorance in her mind as it suits. There is no redirection, Jaime always existed to explore the contradiction in oaths and honour to higher service, be it to house, realm or humanity.
And Jaime just did whatever she wanted him to without any debates as to right or wrong. Cersei comes across as more complex initially because she's a woman in a man's world, looked down on and treated like shit by Tywin because she's a woman, forced to marry an abusive bully like Robert, endure marital rape - her internal misogyny and desire for power is understandable.

Jaime? His self-pitying, poor little rich boy act never resonated with me. His entire story revolves around his love for his twin sister. He didn't join the KG because of any big ideals - he did it to be with Cersei. The KG requires celibacy but Jaime joins this institution knowing that he was going to be engaging in adultery and sex with his sister - so he was already planning on breaking oaths when he joined them. But he is disillusioned by the KG and the oaths? lol.

Then he literally backstabs Aerys - after making sure his father's army has entered the city - and then sits on the throne waiting for Ned to get there, while the Mountain is in the red keep raping and murdering Elia and her children - who Jaime has sworn to protect. Because it's more important to show off to Ned - and then whines about how Ned is judging him when he does not explain to anyone about the Wildfire.

His entire story about oaths and honor and all that never made any sense to me. Theon Greyjoy is a far better character in terms of motivation, conflict, complexity, morality. Theon grows up a child hostage - never knowing when he was going to be killed if his father overstepped, not knowing where he belongs. Theon is where we are actually see a proper redemption arc.

This is not true, it was a long time build up. Remember, Jaime refuses to sleep with Cersei in the White Sword tower because he still respects the place so much. She then makes a cruel jab at him. Tyrion's last words linger in his mind, but he doesn't actually believe them at first. Rather, as he slowly watches as Cersei rules he begins to finally see who she truly is and his experience with Brienne has shown him a different kind of woman. It's not pride that he abandons Cersei, it's the wool being pulled from his eyes. She never loved him as he loved her.

I don't see why Jaime not sleeping with Cersei that one time in the white sword tower after he gets back is indicative of any kind of growth. Jaime has always controlled when and where they sleep with each other and that's why I dislike it when Cersei is portrayed by fandom as the evil seductress trying to lead poor naive Jaime astray. That's never been their dynamic.

Taena got quite drunk and Cersei pried the name of her secret lover from her. He was a Myrish sea captain, half a pirate, with black hair to the shoulders and a scar that ran across his face from chin to ear. "A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes," the other woman told her, "until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be denied."

"I know the sort,"
the queen said with a wry smile.

"Has Your Grace ever known a man like that, I wonder?"

"Robert," she lied, thinking of Jaime.

Inside the room, a man and a woman were wrestling. They were both naked. Bran could not tell who they were. The man's back was to him, and his body screened the woman from view as he pushed her up against a wall.

There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide-eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there, because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please …" But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast.
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons . . ."

"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart.

And yes, whether it be pride or realizing that Cersei did not love him as much he loved her, at the end of the day, it was Cersei's infidelity that makes Jaime abandon his sister to her fate - it's ultimately about him. Not about whether she's a bad person, or him become more honorable or being redeemed or wanting to be a better man or any of that. It's him and his hurt feelings and being angry that she slept with other men and leaving this person - whom he loved all his life - to a terrible fate.
 

Tanerian

Member
Feb 24, 2018
1,380
Neither

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Also he raped Cersei. It's #ShowCanon.

Fixed the spoiler. Certainly didn't go that way in the books.

Also, there's no way his arc goes that route in the books, because they'll never be finished..
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
987
You've got this all wrong.
No I know exactly what I'm talking about and it can be demonstrated clearly and succinctly by the text without having to turn to wishy washy nonsense. Jaime arrives in Riverrun and immediately establishes that he does not make idle threats.
The man reddened. "My lord grandfather . . . if we hang the man we have no hostage, ser. Have you considered that?"

"Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out. If I were to threaten to hit you unless you shut your mouth, and you presumed to speak, what do you think I'd do?"

"Ser, you do not unders—"

Jaime hit him. It was a backhand blow delivered with his golden hand, but the force of it sent Ser Ryman stumbling backward into the arms of his whore. "You have a fat head, Ser Ryman, and a thick neck as well. Ser Ilyn, how many strokes would it take you to cut through that neck?"
The man killed his king and threw a boy out a window, he doesn't deal in half measures. The crown must make good on its threats else wise the taking of hostages ceases to be a tool it can use to maintain the peace. This is supposed to contrast directly with Dany's failure of rule in Meereen pertaining to child hostages.

Genna gives her speech, the thrust of which is Tywin was not personally likeable but required as a protector. She then says;
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
Jaime then ends the siege without fighting, directly contradicting Genna's assertion. Jaime is no longer so thirsty for a fight that it impairs his ability to rule like Tywin. He ends it with a dishonourable threat, evokes Tywin's name and theme song, and then directly confronts Genna assertion.
Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?
Genna's statement is disproven in the same chapter, it exists only to show in fact how much like Tywin Jaime has become. As per Genna's speech, like Tywin, Jaime took action that was personally dislikable but necessary to the function of the realm.

Genna's other assertion was Jaime isn't like Tywin because he smiles "like Gerion". Gerion was the joker of the family, the accusation is Jaime doesn't take things seriously enough to be like Tywin. Dispelling this one is what the next chapter is about, the crescendo of which is this;
He was. The boy met Jaime by the stables, with a bedroll slung over one shoulder and a bundle of scrolls beneath his arm. He could not have been any older than sixteen, yet he was even taller than his father, almost seven feet of legs and shins and elbows, a gangling, gawky boy with a cowlick. "Lord Commander. I'm your hostage, Hoster. Hos, they call me." He grinned.

Does he think this is a lark? "Pray, who are they?"

"My friends. My brothers."

"I am not your friend and I am not your brother." That cleaned the grin off the boy's face. Jaime turned to Lord Tytos. "My lord, let there be no misunderstanding here. Lord Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, this woman Stoneheart … all these are outlaws and rebels, enemies to the king and all his leal subjects. If I should learn that you or yours are hiding them, protecting them, or assisting them in any way, I will not hesitate to send you your son's head. I hope you understand that. Understand this as well: I am not Ryman Frey."

"No." All trace of warmth had left Lord Blackwood's mouth. "I know who I am dealing with. Kingslayer."

"Good." Jaime mounted and wheeled Honor toward the gate. "I wish you a good harvest and the joy of the king's peace."
Jaime is no longer carefree, it isn't all a laugh, he no longer smiles like Gerion.

The last chapters of Jaime's story to date are blatantly about Jaime becoming Tywin. In TWOIAF GRRM even gives Tywin a history of peacemaking the feuding Brackens/Blackwoods with the sticking point being a mill, paralleling Jaime's exact story at this time.

He is the man to take responsibility for the realm, to make and wear the hard decisions. His arc is best described as one of selfishness to servitude, his character primarily serves to demonstrate the saying the King eats, and the Hand takes the shit.

Snow in the riverlands. If it was snowing here, it could well be snowing on Lannisport as well, and on King's Landing. Winter is marching south, and half our granaries are empty. Any crops still in the fields were doomed. There would be no more plantings, no more hopes of one last harvest. He found himself wondering what his father would do to feed the realm, before he remembered that Tywin Lannister was dead.
Hint hint.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
Book Jaime - Transformed him
Show Jaime - Transformed him, then revealed him, then revealed him again, then transformed him back leading to the final transformation where he was revealed to be transforming in the final scene before he transformed back
 

spx54

Member
Mar 21, 2019
3,273
the complete nosedive his character takes after the incredibly compelling arc in season 3 is still pretty stunning.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,138
No I know exactly what I'm talking about and it can be demonstrated clearly and succinctly by the text without having to turn to wishy washy nonsense. Jaime arrives in Riverrun and immediately establishes that he does not make idle threats.
The man killed his king and threw a boy out a window, he doesn't deal in half measures. The crown must make good on its threats else wise the taking of hostages ceases to be a tool it can use to maintain the peace. This is supposed to contrast directly with Dany's failure of rule in Meereen pertaining to child hostages.

Genna gives her speech, the thrust of which is Tywin was not personally likeable but required as a protector. She then says;

Jaime then ends the siege without fighting, directly contradicting Genna's assertion. Jaime is no longer so thirsty for a fight that it impairs his ability to rule like Tywin. He ends it with a dishonourable threat, evokes Tywin's name and theme song, and then directly confronts Genna assertion.

Genna's statement is disproven in the same chapter, it exists only to show in fact how much like Tywin Jaime has become. As per Genna's speech, like Tywin, Jaime took action that was personally dislikable but necessary to the function of the realm.

Genna's other assertion was Jaime isn't like Tywin because he smiles "like Gerion". Gerion was the joker of the family, the accusation is Jaime doesn't take things seriously enough to be like Tywin. Dispelling this one is what the next chapter is about, the crescendo of which is this;

Jaime is no longer carefree, it isn't all a laugh, he no longer smiles like Gerion.

The last chapters of Jaime's story to date are blatantly about Jaime becoming Tywin. In TWOIAF GRRM even gives Tywin a history of peacemaking the feuding Brackens/Blackwoods with the sticking point being a mill, paralleling Jaime's exact story at this time.

He is the man to take responsibility for the realm, to make and wear the hard decisions. His arc is best described as one of selfishness to servitude, his character primarily serves to demonstrate the saying the King eats, and the Hand takes the shit.

Hint hint.

This is just wrong on all levels. I keep meaning to come back to this to explain in detail how wrong it is, but I've been busy. But rest assured, I will respond. I've actually never seen anyone argue Jaime's character progressing in such a way.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
987
This is just wrong on all levels. I keep meaning to come back to this to explain in detail how wrong it is, but I've been busy. But rest assured, I will respond. I've actually never seen anyone argue Jaime's character progressing in such a way.
It would be better you didn't because further loose meandering off quoted blots doesn't serve any useful purpose. I understand why you don't get it, the key mistake you've made is your myopic view that Tywin = bad. GRRM and the series does not take the view everything Tywin is bad, ASOIAF is an argument for moderation, it will make the argument Tywin went too far in ordering the murders of the royal children but up until that point the series steps to the side of passing judgement on Tywin. GRRM didn't give him twenty years of successful rule for it to be ignored. Before Genna says Jaime is not like Tywin GRRM has Genna explain how she views Tywin, and it isn't your view. Her opinion of him is not simple to explain in one word, but protector is probably the best fit, as she asks who will protect us now.

Jaime's arc is and has always been primarily about the most selfish character stepping successfully into that role of the realm's first and greatest servant, the role synonymous with Tywin. It is the very place GRRM begins characterisation of Jaime;
"I do not like it," a woman was saying. There was a row of windows beneath him, and the voice was drifting out of the last window on this side. "You should be the Hand."
"Gods forbid," a man's voice replied lazily. "It's not an honor I'd want. There's far too much work involved."
He should be Hand GRRM has Cersei put to him in his first real introduction, and he makes a joke out of it as Genna says, like Gerion. Genna's quote is prefaced by her saying she has known Jaime since he was a child. It's not so much wrong as it is out of date, that's what he was, as he was the Tyrion quotes too;
And Jaime was even worse, rash and headstrong and quick to anger. His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.
My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule.
But it's an arc, the character changes, those quotes exist to show how he has changed. That's the purpose of these quotes, as I spoon fed you the in world responses in my last reply. It isn't subtle, GRRM's character arcs are fairly straight forward about turns more like an Austen novel than anything else that comes to mind.