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Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
For E3 it's really not hard to figure out why people classify game reveal leaks meant for E3 as a spoiler.

Just think of an E3 press conference like a movie. A game reveal is part of that movie. Knowing that's happening is like someone telling you what's happening at a particular part of a movie.

It's a bummer when it happens and does hurt the experience for some people. It's in no way "unhealthy" to feel that way and Schrier is wrong for saying so.

I mean, Sony's conference from a few years ago is looked back so fondly upon because of the surprises. The surprise of Shenmue 3 and the FFVII remake were so much more fun to experience without knowing they existed before hand.

In the end, it's all marketing, sure, but so what? People should feel bad for getting excited about a product?

Hey now, what I learned is that not everything in a movie is a spoiler. Only the more twisty and important plot reveals and developments are.

That's kinda the problem right there. Movies, games, books, etc. have spoilers because they have a story. E3 doesn't have a story, it's just a bunch of announcements.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
You're right. It's on journalists and 4channers to reveal games.

Why even have Nintendo Directs anymore? Fuck the system!

That's basically a big part of why Nintendo started doing directs. Other companies should probably just follow suit, even though live stage presentations are pretty cool. It's becoming increasingly difficult to keep anything under wraps before the big reveal.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,868
I will accept that people are busting their ass off to make this well-oiled marketing machine where everything is going to be drip feed to us at just the right speed to fuel pre-release hype and preorders. I can respect that people have spent years working and perfecting those talents. With all that said most leaks have been just confirmation that game x exists. If that is treated like the apocalypse then something seems broken to me. Leaks as simple as "this game exists" will never be seen as anything other than good for me.

As for the fans, it's not surprising that some of them have bought so completely into the pre-release marketing hype cycle that they will complain that a game wasn't marketed to them exactly as it was intended to be. I used to be like that, but I started to enjoy things more once I stop buying into the marketing bullshit and stopped treating these events as the gaming worlds Christmas Morning.
 
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Denamitea

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,709
I don't disagree with his point because it's stupid to get upset over an announcement of a game leaking but what exactly is the benefit of leaking an announcement? Doesn't it only serve to the benefit of the journalist that leaks it in giving them exposure?

How is it better to leak an announcement as opposed to just letting it be announced as it was originally intended?
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
I guess my question is why do journalists feel the urge to leak that company X is working on game Y when that announcement is happening in a few days? Like what is the point? Why not put your effort into more significant/meaty reporting about trends in the industry, working conditions, etc. What is the value add of leaking these announcements?

Jason does that shit all the time.

And, like stated many times in this thread, the leaks are usually not caused by journalists. They're just reporting info that showed up somewhere.
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,319
Orlando, FL
Hmm, I understand what you're saying now. I just think its the driving point of his post and as such, even though he makes a valid point, it still has to be filtered through the understanding that he and Kotaku benefit from people being excited about leaks.

Ouch. Looking back at his body of work, I have a really hard time seeing how people could believe his posts were simply a justification for his articles. And it wasn't like he was suddenly under the microscope for doing something he shouldn't have. What would he have to gain?

Judging by this thread, and the responses on Twitter, it seems more like he put his goodwill in some jeopardy for stating his disdain for the way corporations in the games industry control the message. Even if I didn't agree with him -- and to be clear, I ABSOLUTELY 100% agree with him and see zero issues with his take -- I respect the hell out of him for making his stance known.

That takes some intestinal fortitude. So much that I've a feeling there are others on the enthusiast press side who agree with him, but aren't willing to suffer along with him so they're keeping their mouths shut (and social media accounts silent) on the matter.

Welp, Jason...guess it's time for you to get an industry gig! ;)
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
It takes a special kind of entitlement and condescension to tell game developers how they should feel about making videogames and showing them to their audience, and that they're "fucking up" for wanting to surprise them. Still waiting for you to provide links to those fabled devs that sided with you, but I'm putting you on ignore before I say something that gets me banned.

This fucking shit, this right here, is why developers don't interact with players more often, even on strongly moderated places like Era.

It takes a special kind of entitlement to believe reporters are immoral for doing their jobs and somehow compromising the integrity of creators, in the only industry where people still throw fits over something as simple as people knowing their game exists. Yes, those developers need to get a grip. I wonder if morale at Marvel Studios is low because everyone knows they're making Eternals and Black Widow films, despite no official announcement having been made.

It's fucking embarrassing.

And good riddance.
 
May 17, 2018
3,454
Seeing so many people from other gaming sites disagree with Jason honestly bums me out thinking of the current state of game journalism.

God forbid we ruin fucking marketing tactics.
 

Altera

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,963
Hey now, what I learned is that not everything in a movie is a spoiler. Only the more twisty and important plot reveals and developments are.

That's kinda the problem right there. Movies, games, books, etc. have spoilers because they have a story. E3 doesn't have a story, it's just a bunch of announcements.
I disagree.

Every year of E3 is a story. A part of a games story is its reveal/first look. A part of Shenmue 3's story is its E3 reveal.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,525
it's Current Year so they might as well adjust...

things are gonna leak no matter what. it may not be their game in particular but somebody else's game is definitely going to leak... so... might as well change the way they reveal things because theres no going back. pandoras box is open and leaks are here to stay
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
Basic lack of respect for people who make games and not leaking their shit in some attention seeking internet post is so much fucking stupider.

People respect the wishes of the creators, not wanting some other attention seeker getting their 15 mins of e-fame, AND God forbid actually wanting a surprise at a show that liked exciting people with the stuff they're working on. Not to mention leaking things mere days before we would have gotten a surprise anyway.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. And pretending it's just about spoilers in announcements is disingenuous BS.
People lose their shit at movies they've known were in development for half a decade. People will react to quality. That doesn't change whether or not Ubisoft has some bullshit scripted demo with embarrassing fake banter or not.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
E3 conferences are more and more designed almost like a traditional narrative. With surprises, high and low points and all of that. They take a lot of time to develop and some people like to be taken in that ride.

This whole "corporations are exploiting you" is a bit of an overreaction to what amounts to a sizzle real of trailers. Trailers that are, in and out of itself, mini narratives.

Showing an audience a trailer isn't that exploitative. Or exploitative at all. It might be one of the more inane marketing strategies there is.

It's a bit gross that the biggest gaming event of the year is about selling you stuff. But it's also harmless even if unfortunate. I mean, this is the industry that tries to make a "Oscar like award show" that is also an excuse to sell video games.

Edit: I don't just not liking E3 or the state of consumerism is an excuse to ruin people's work.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,452
It takes a special kind of entitlement to believe reporters are immoral for doing their jobs and somehow compromising the integrity of creators, in the only industry where people still throw fits over something as simple as people knowing their game exists. Yes, those developers need to get a grip. I wonder if morale at Marvel Studios is low because everyone knows they're making Eternals and Black Widow films, despite no official announcement having been made.

It's fucking embarrassing.

And good riddance.
As an aside, this notion that disagreeing with developers is tantamount to heresy is exactly what we're talking about with regards to things that need to change.

All I got from that dude's post is "How DARE you question the developers/publishers?!", like I'm supposed to be in slack-jawed reverence to anything they say and do.

It's almost as if it's a possibility that devs like Balrog have grown up in same hype culture that we have and has his opinions formed that way as a result.

Y'all need to stop acting like you're lowly commoners who shouldn't question anything. It's truly possible to have respect for devs who create great products and still disagree with them.

Is it really that outlandish to request that this industry grows up a little? I love the industry, I promise, but the way we as consumers lionize developers and argue against our own self-interests is fucking weird fam
 
May 17, 2018
3,454
Showing an audience a trailer isn't that exploitative. Or exploitative at all. It might be one of the more inane marketing strategies there is.

It's a bit gross that the biggest gaming event of the year is about selling you stuff. But it's also harmless even if unfortunate.

How many times have companies shown trailers at E3 that we're absolute nothing like the final product? Christ, look at Anthem just this year. How many people bought into the hype based solely off the trailers created exactly for events like this?
 

nikos

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,998
New York, NY
I don't agree with him at all. Leaking things, especially as a journalist, and saying it's "for the culture" is unprofessional and stupid. Look at what happened Gizmodo after leaking the iPhone 4.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
E3 conferences are more and more designed almost like a traditional narrative. With surprises, high and low points and all of that. They take a lot of time to develop and some people like to be taken in that ride.

This whole "corporations are exploiting you" is a bit of an overreaction to what amounts to a sizzle real of trailers. Trailers that are, in and out of itself, mini narratives.

Showing an audience a trailer isn't that exploitative. Or exploitative at all. It might be one of the more inane marketing strategies there is.

It's a bit gross that the biggest gaming event of the year is about selling you stuff. But it's also harmless even if unfortunate. I mean, this is the industry that tries to make a "Oscar like award show" that is also an excuse to sell video games.

Well, it shouldn't be. That's what Jason and many people are arguing about.

Because it leads to problems in the industry. Marketing has a ton of contracts and deadlines involved, which directly affect devs. Surely you have heard of the term "hype culture".

Now surely you're not going to say Jason supports this culture when he directly benefits from it, since it's his main body of journalist work (how devs are treated in the game industry).
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,319
Orlando, FL
It's a bit gross that the biggest gaming event of the year is about selling you stuff. But it's also harmless even if unfortunate. I mean, this is the industry that tries to make a "Oscar like award show" that is also an excuse to sell video games.

Edit: I don't just not liking E3 or the state of consumerism is an excuse to ruin people's work.

But you are part of the problem, and speak precisely to his point. That perspective absolutely is harmful. It's shoving your head in the sand for the sake of a two minute "sizzle reel" as you put it. The fact that so many passionately oppose this only further cements the problem.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
Well, it shouldn't be. That's what Jason and many people are arguing about.

Because it leads to problems in the industry. Marketing has a ton of contracts and deadlines involved, which directly affect devs.

Surely you have heard of the term "hype culture".

Leaking announcements is not solving anything.

Devs also work on these announcements and are bummed when they are spoiled.

Hype exists for every product. It's not something video game exclusive. The fact there are no unions isn't due to some yearly marketing pitch.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
I don't agree with him at all. Leaking things, especially as a journalist, and saying it's "for the culture" is unprofessional and stupid. Look at what happened Gizmodo after leaking the iPhone 4.

He didn't leak anything. He just reported on it on a mainstream channel (Kotaku).

The leaks showed up on ERA (through some tweets) before any gaming website.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,423
Sorry Jason I disagree. If I've been working on something and planning how I want to reveal to have some random troll ruin it would suck. All that hard work would have been wasted.
Is it so hard to wait for the reveal?
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Seeing so many people from other gaming sites disagree with Jason honestly bums me out thinking of the current state of game journalism.

God forbid we ruin fucking marketing tactics.

Why are marketing tactics viewed with such disdain and deserving of ruin? The developers that so many people seek to protect around here are often an integral part of how the games are marketed and presented.

E3 isn't a story, it's an ad.

Yeah, and games aren't art, they are products. Whatever. It's all part of the same thing. You can choose to view everything threw a cynical lens, but I'll pass.
 

DoradoWinston

Member
Apr 9, 2019
6,134
People should enjoy the E3 shows leak free or even if they know everything.

Just be considerate and ask if they want to know a leak and if they say no then don't say it and if they say yes then tell them. It's really not that hard.

A journalist just like a billion dollar company can't tell you what you do or don't like or how you are supposed to enjoy something.

By the way comparing it to movies is inaccurate
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
I really find this attitude by gaming companies weird, the movie industry has frigging roadmaps! It might not end up being fulfilled, but we know they are planning Avatar movies for the next decade for ex.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
Leaking announcements is not solving anything.

Devs also work on these announcements and are bummed when they are spoiled.

Hype exists for every product. It's not something video game exclusive. The fact there are no unions isn't due to some yearly marketing pitch.

Yes, it isn't.

But that's not really Jason or any journalist's fault. They report on the leaks, but they don't reveal them.

Leaks are one of those problems that shouldn't have been a problem in the first place. That's up to the companies to solve it.

One way is to stop being so secretive and just announce things without fanfare. That way, leaks won't happen because there is nothing to leak in the first place.

It's the easy way, although not the most profitable. It's risk and reward, really.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800

I see them as both. I don't get what's wrong about getting excited about products, especially when they can tell stories and offer experiences you can't get elsewhere. Just because companies are businesses does not mean you need to be so cynical about everything. There are still a lot of hard working and passionate people working on the games and how they are presented.

Not everything needs to be some "fight against the man."
 
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Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
Jason and others are in the right to report what they want. What they don't get to do is act as if people that worked toward a reveal aren't allowed to be upset that was spoiled, ruined, and taken away from them after the hard work they put in. They don't have the right to act as people aren't allowed to want to be surprised. It doesn't fucking matter id other industries do it differently or if it's apart of marketing.

To often I see people wanting to wash their hands of the negative fallout of their actions. Reporting on leaks has negative fallout and Jason and others don't get to act like they're above it or it doesn't matter because they don't want to deal with the blowback directed at them.
 

Mercador

Member
Nov 18, 2017
2,840
Quebec City
So, suppose I write a book about gaming development, someone got an early access on it and start posting tidbits about it.

Would it be different?
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Revealing s 240p video trailer of something is disrespectful to the people who worked hard on the presentation for these games. Otherwise everything else is fair game and maybe so much money shouldnt be spent on these ads if they get so upset about them being spoiled
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
Do you really think that's "harmless?"

Misleading marketing isn't something that happens because of E3. It would happen regardless. Do you think EA would advertise Anthem as the broken game it is? Regardless of the way games were marketed?

That's why there are reviews and all of that. People go to the movies to see shit movies thanks to good trailers. And buy crappy phones based on slick advertising.

The fact that ads are misleading is a very different conversation. Much bigger than E3 or spoiler culture.

But you are part of the problem, and speak precisely to his point. That perspective absolutely is harmful. It's shoving your head in the sand for the sake of a two minute "sizzle reel" as you put it. The fact that so many passionately oppose this only further cements the problem.

I'm recognizing it's bad and I'm burying my head in the sand?

I don't even watch the game awards.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
They reveal new games at Nintendo Directs too.
But fuck Nintendo's corporate agenda for revealing their games how/when they want to right?

Nintendo can still show those games to the public for the first time. Leaks telling us they exist ruins nothing. We all knew Pokémon Sword and Shield were called that just before the official announcement. Did we hurt Nintendo then?

Quit trying to defend corporations in situations when they hilariously do not need it. They're fine.

As an aside, this notion that disagreeing with developers is tantamount to heresy is exactly what we're talking about with regards to things that need to change.

All I got from that dude's post is "How DARE you question the developers/publishers?!", like I'm supposed to be in slack-jawed reverence to anything they say and do.

It's almost as if it's a possibility that devs like Balrog have grown up in same hype culture that we have and has his opinions formed that way as a result.

Y'all need to stop acting like you're lowly commoners who shouldn't question anything. It's truly possible to have respect for devs who create great products and still disagree with them.

Is it really that outlandish to request that this industry grows up a little? I love the industry, I promise, but the way we as consumers lionize developers and argue against our own self-interests is fucking weird fam

Dude's entire argument that devs are being hurt by this is quoting devs saying they're being hurt by it. No examples are given. Just vague references to morale being hurt, which, please.

These people are fine. Their work isn't ruined.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,488
New York
Cory's response is very disingenuous and manipulative, intentionally or not. I get why he feels that way, but it's quite irrelevant to the central topic at hand. Jason's whole point is to say stop treating game announcements and marketing as a part of the experience of a game. These are companies attempting to sell you a product and profit off you, it's not healthy to treat the very announcement and revealing of a product to be a part of that experience and something we should value being sold on the idea of something. Doing so is falling into the hype cycle these companies are attempting to create to get people to invest in and buy their products before they're even out.

Meanwhile Cory is trying to use the human side of things to manipulate our feelings to side with the publishers, devs and corporations to protect their efforts when it has nothing to do with what Jason is saying. Yes it sucks for people who worked hard on a big reveal and carefully crafted marketing experience to show their product in what they think is the best possible light. But that's got nothing at all to do with what Jason is talking actually about. Whether it sucks for them or not to see their hard work undermined has no affect or relevance on the idea that these are marketing events and initiatives designed to get consumers invested and attached to a product being sold to them.

Jason is talking about an unhealthy culture of hype and attachment to a commercial product, which companies are banking on and seeking to exploit, while Cory is attempting to override and ignore that entire debate and bring up a completely irrelevant issue to play on our sympathies.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,452
Nintendo can still show those games to the public for the first time. Leaks telling us they exist ruins nothing. We all knew Pokémon Sword and Shield were called that just before the official announcement. Did we hurt Nintendo then?

Quit trying to defend corporations in situations when they hilariously do not need it. They're fine.



Dude's entire argument that devs are being hurt by this is quoting devs saying they're being hurt by it. No examples are given. Just vague references to morale being hurt, which, please.

These people are fine. Their work isn't ruined.
Yeah I agree. Your point about Black Widow and the Eternals was spot on.

Hell Sony did great with their PS5 dump. We know the PS5 exists, now we wait until their ready to show us. Simple.
 

THRILLHO

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,092
I'm not a developer but with respect to my own industry, it's always nice when a surprise can happen, but I've been through the cycle enough to not pin my emotional stability on it.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
Yes, it isn't.

But that's not really Jason or any journalist's fault. They report on the leaks, but they don't reveal them.

Leaks are one of those problems that shouldn't have been a problem in the first place. That's up to the companies to solve it.

One way is to stop being so secretive and just announce things without fanfare. That way, leaks won't happen because there is nothing to leak in the first place.

It's the easy way, although not the most profitable. It's risk and reward, really.

Jason has revealed leaks.

Jason himself said he would say what the Rockestady game was if he found it interesting to report. If "it was multiplayer only for example" as he put it.

Let me ask you, what good would it be if Rockestady was making a multiplayer only game and Jason decided to reveal what it is? What good would come out of it?

Also, creators can announce things however they like. A lot of people like the fanfare and Jason hasn't shown why it's bad.

The problems with E3 are a symptom of bigger issues. Not the problem.

Fake trailers don't exist because of E3. Crunch doesn't exist because of E3 and consumerism certainly doesn't exist because of E3.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
Cory's response is very disingenuous and manipulative, intentionally or not. I get why he feels that way, but it's quite irrelevant to the central topic at hand. Jason's whole point is to say stop treating game announcements and marketing as a part of the experience of a game.

Let me stop you right here, Jason has no right or authority to tell people what they should like or how they should feel when Jason does something that pisses them off.

People like <thing>, Jason spoils <thing>, People are going to express frustration with Jason. That's how humans work, this isn't unique to gamers. Telling them that they shouldn't like <thing> is not a valid argument, it's absurd.

It doesn't matter what <thing> is, it could be a game, or an ad, or a book, or whatever. I also find it incredibly damning that Jason isn't saying not to get hyped for announcements, he's just pointing out that you should get equally excited when HIS corporation gets to announce it, instead of the publisher corporation announcing it. Jason has a financial incentive to leak games, regardless of how gamers, developers, or publishers feel about it.

I want to point out again that i'm a big fan of Jason, his reporting is unrivaled and he's done a ton of good for this industry, but he's way off here.
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,319
Orlando, FL
Misleading marketing isn't something that happens because of E3. It would happen regardless. Do you think EA would advertise Anthem as the broken game it is? Regardless of the way games were marketed?

That's why there are reviews and all of that. People go to the movies to see shit movies thanks to good trailers. And buy crappy phones based on slick advertising.

The fact that ads are misleading is a very different conversation. Much bigger than E3 or spoiler culture.



I'm recognizing it's bad and I'm burying my head in the sand?

I don't even watch the game awards.

You are treating his point too literally. It isn't about leaking announcements. It's about the marketing cycle and the control exerted by corporations for sake of their bottom line. I genuinely don't see how this is controversial yet here we are. You seem to want to make a point for both sides here. Fine, fair enough...plenty of others are doing the same. But this isn't really a "both sides" situation. Most are just taking the strawman like Barlog and others, and running with it.

You say it is "harmless." I disagree.

Okeedokee?