• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
The way I see it, it's completely fine that you, fellow internet dweller, don't care about marketing spoilers, just like I don't really care about any spoilers. You can even voice your discomfort about other people feeling differently.

But Schreier editorializing us about it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Schreier is working for a website which wants you visit itself for the gaming news instead of checking out the source. Which is absolutely fine, but there's a clear conflict of priorities. Believe me that I take meat demonization with a huge grain of salt when it comes from a tofu distributor; the same principle is applying here. Sure, he's probably not consciously doing it to make people visit Kotaku; but the fact he works with that mindset is clearly affecting his viewpoint.

The conferences are just there to sell you games? Well guess what, 99% of games are also just there to sell you games. Doesn't mean they cannot be fun, and the same applies to marketing. Speaking of marketing, what about Hasbro stuff? Are He-Man and ponies immune to spoilers because the series were supposed to sell you toys? Or, say, if there's a shareware style game, is the free intro episode immune to spoilers? Clearly, they made it so that you would buy a game.

Unless you take a scorched earth approach on any people who want to avoid any sort of spoilers - which is not my way of doing things, but it's sort of respectable - the "it's designed to sell you stuff" argument is ridiculous; you're going to have a hard time finding anything that doesn't apply. Game of Thrones? Sells you TV/streaming subscriptions. Mortal Kombat? Sells you DLC. Indie games not in franchises and whatnot? Sell you on gifting or making friends buy more of themselves. E3 conferences? Sell you games. Is the difference that clear cut to you?
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
People forget that trailers in themself are art too. The creators of these trailers take the knowledge of the audience into consideration when making them. So while leaks don't "ruin" reveals, they certainly change the way people interact with them, sometimes for the worse not often for the better.
 

LuckyLinus

Member
Jun 1, 2018
1,935
Thank you, about fucking time someone pointed out that a result of a delayed game more likely than not has a lot worse (financial AND CRITICAL) effect on the game than a delayed movie has on said movie.
There are plenty of movies that take 5 years to make and theres no drama about titles and actors being leaked.

I just see a bunch of people crying over their hype culture being disrupted.

#teamjason
 

SuperBoss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,512
This isn't really an argument. You have to argue why games shouldn't be announced the way movies are. We know they aren't announced the same way (specifically, both films and games reveal the product the same way, but games choose to tie up the very existence of the product in with the reveal while films announce the product years in advance and hype up just the initial trailer). You gotta say why games shouldn't do that if you think that.

The mediums are different, gaming is way more interactive in comparison vs a passive movie viewing experience, and comparatively games are much longer experiences. Development processes and times are different. Hence, marketing is and should be different. Im not saying it needs to be the case across the board, but tying announcement to a reveal generates excitement. Surprises generate excitement. Not all game reveals are just trailers of spliced footage by a marketing team. Just announcing a title doesnt generate the same buzz as attaching a first look at the game itself, even if its something people know are coming (i.e. GoW2). This works especially in favor of new IPs.

Some of the best reveals/announcements come with gameplay walk throughs. Or a shadowdrop demo for the audience to experience (RE7). Or an announcement at the end of a demo (P.T.). Its very effective marketing that also engages players, and gives them something more substantial than a project title.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,977
God forbid anyone prevent you from consuming a million dollar marketing campaign the way a corporation intended. The rest of the year they're evil entities who don't deserve our time or money and want to gouge us endlessly with needless extra costs, but plan to show a 30 second trailer during one week in June and all your intentions are sacred.

They're literally commercials, people. E3 is a giant marketing campaign. The concept of "spoilers" for it is ludicrous, no matter how much you've built up the idea of it being "Christmas" in your head or whatever. The whole idea is honestly embarrassing.
 

Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,944
It's a reasonable comment. There's also people who've been saying (respectful as it is, I disagree with the idea) that leaked announcements make for worst first impressions. I think that's untrue, as we've had several big games revealed this way, and the range of reactions was ample, with some having an extraordinary reception.

I think when a "leaked" game gets a mixed reaction, the problem is with the game itself, not the manner in which it was revealed.
 

Hadok

Member
Feb 14, 2018
5,790
Schreier is working for a website which wants you visit itself for the gaming news instead of checking out the source. Which is absolutely fine, but there's a clear conflict of priorities. Believe me that I take meat demonization with a huge grain of salt when it comes from a tofu distributor; the same principle is applying here. Sure, he's probably not consciously doing it to make people visit Kotaku; but the fact he works with that mindset is clearly affecting his viewpoint.


This.
 

Rand a. Thor

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
10,213
Greece
On one hand yes movies are revealed years before we even get a trailer. On the other hand movie announcements aren't a multimillion dollar industry nor do they have such a large all encompassing venue such as E3 or gamescom. That billion dollar marketing in the title is exactly why leak culture is annoying, not because its spoiling the reveal for me, but because instead of the community reaching out to these companies and advocating for more transparency, journalists and "leakers" happily distrupt the system for their own hubris and satisfaction. This article feels like justification bias, if Kotaku wasn't leaking so many games on the dime than they wouldn't be as well known as they are today.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
God forbid anyone prevent you from consuming a million dollar marketing campaign the way a corporation intended. The rest of the year they're evil entities who don't deserve our time or money and want to gouge us endlessly with needless extra costs, but plan to show a 30 second trailer during one week in June and all your intentions are sacred.

They're literally commercials, people. E3 is a giant marketing campaign. The concept of "spoilers" for it is ludicrous, no matter how much you've built up the idea of it being "Christmas" in your head or whatever. The whole idea is honestly embarrassing.

Games and movies are literally products too. So people shouldn't care about spoilers for anything by that logic.

Sony and Paramount are SELLING YOU PRODUCTS, OMG.

God forbid trailers have surprises in them.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
God forbid anyone prevent you from consuming a million dollar marketing campaign the way a corporation intended. The rest of the year they're evil entities who don't deserve our time or money and want to gouge us endlessly with needless extra costs, but plan to show a 30 second trailer during one week in June and all your intentions are sacred.

This sort of rhetoric would be better used for the person who fights for the agency of developers during most of the year but then suddenly decides to remove that agency (by supporting/posting leaks) when he can get more clicks for his website.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
There should be a distinction between the debate around 'announcing early' (ala movies) and the debate on consumers getting upset about leaks. They're completely distinct things.

I don't think it's wise for companies to announce games too early, but I also don't believe journalists or others should treat leaks as 'spoilers', as if the marketing is the product or the entertainment, rather than the game itself. I think Jason is reflecting on the marketing becoming the product.
 

N75

self-requested temp ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,232
I knew this went too far when Geoff Keighley leaked the XB1 price and you still get Xbox fans upset at him in his Twitter replies.

I'm not defending people who break NDA and leak the stuff themselves, but reporting on something you have a source for is something else.

Sucks for the devs, but it's clear that people care more about the hype.

Or gaming sites can simply not plaster unfiltered leaks everywhere.
"Sites shouldn't report on news to ruin my excitement."

Lmao literally no other industry does this, for good reason.
 
Oct 25, 2017
969
User Banned (1 Day): Personal Attack; Accumulated Infractions
There are plenty of movies that take 5 years to make and theres no drama about titles and actors being leaked.

I just see a bunch of people crying over their hype culture being disrupted.

#teamjason
I think you just agreed with me, now reread your sentence, but change "movies" to "games" and "actors" to "gameplay"...
You cannot honestly tell me when that said game comes out, it will be greeted on the same level of kindness and "no drama" as a movie would by critics and the general public. #teamhackfraudjason
 

hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
Marketing is not a narrative. The idea that it can be "spoiled" is ridiculous, and if you believe otherwise then maybe you need to step back and rethink about your relationship with capitalism.
 
Last edited:

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
I side 100% with Cory on this issue. It's not even about "spoilers" so much as it is about a developer's entitlement to reveal the thing they've been working on for years and pouring their life into on their own terms, and how/when they want to do it. First impressions count for a lot, and if a studio/publisher wants to pour marketing dollars (money that costs me nothing as a consumer might I add) into a reveal that they hope leaves a good impression on the public, then they should be able to do that without some schmuck leaking things early by a few days just so said schmuck can score some internet fame or boost their profile or whatever reason it is they do it. I feel sorry for Ninja Theory right now. Their game just got leaked in the most unceremonious way possible and judging by the reception, it was for the worse.

Jason Schreier is undoubtedly a good journalist, but his whole stance on this matter makes him look like an unsympathetic clown in my opinion.



How is this even comparable when the creation of a movie is such a different thing compared to the creation of a game. There's so much secrecy involved in game development because things can and often do go wrong during the actual development. All the major hurdles in film making usually occur during pre-production. Once a project is off the ground and into production proper, it's incredibly rare that the film gets cancelled. Not to mention making a film is a far more high-profile ordeal and nigh-on impossible to keep a secret anyway.
 

notme2020

Member
Dec 3, 2017
355
I feel bad for all the folks who worked so damn hard on that trailer or demo we are going to see in the upcoming week only for the surprise to be ruined by these leaks. I think it would have been better to not report every leak.
 
Last edited:

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
28,974
Wrexham, Wales
I mean, it's fun to get excited about the reveals and be surprised. Reading a headline on a message board a day before the reveal can be mildly deflating.

I don't think that makes you an industry stooge.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
Jason has spent a surprisingly long amount of time in this industry to be so wrong on this one.

Yeah, it's really weird that the guy who's done so much for developers suddenly doesn't give a shit about what developers think when it comes to this issue.

How he feels about the spoiler issue is beside the point, really, because by supporting leaks and posting them himself he's directly going against the wishes of those he claims to support. It's hypocritical as all fuck.
 

Oddish1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,818
The way I see it, it's completely fine that you, fellow internet dweller, don't care about marketing spoilers, just like I don't really care about any spoilers. You can even voice your discomfort about other people feeling differently.

But Schreier editorializing us about it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Schreier is working for a website which wants you visit itself for the gaming news instead of checking out the source. Which is absolutely fine, but there's a clear conflict of priorities. Believe me that I take meat demonization with a huge grain of salt when it comes from a tofu distributor; the same principle is applying here. Sure, he's probably not consciously doing it to make people visit Kotaku; but the fact he works with that mindset is clearly affecting his viewpoint.

The conferences are just there to sell you games? Well guess what, 99% of games are also just there to sell you games. Doesn't mean they cannot be fun, and the same applies to marketing. Speaking of marketing, what about Hasbro stuff? Are He-Man and ponies immune to spoilers because the series were supposed to sell you toys? Or, say, if there's a shareware style game, is the free intro episode immune to spoilers? Clearly, they made it so that you would buy a game.

Unless you take a scorched earth approach on any people who want to avoid any sort of spoilers - which is not my way of doing things, but it's sort of respectable - the "it's designed to sell you stuff" argument is ridiculous; you're going to have a hard time finding anything that doesn't apply. Game of Thrones? Sells you TV/streaming subscriptions. Mortal Kombat? Sells you DLC. Indie games not in franchises and whatnot? Sell you on gifting or making friends buy more of themselves. E3 conferences? Sell you games. Is the difference that clear cut to you?
Okay, but don't publishers and developers also have huge incentives for people to view gaming announcements as huge events rather than the glorified commercials that they actually are. It's worth pointing out that the only reason we view E3 leaks as spoilers in the first place is because of the huge marketing push companies put into making E3 get that reaction. It goes both ways, publishers and developers have their biases too. And frankly I think how games companies market their games deserve much more scrutiny and criticism than "games journalism man is in favor reporting on news".
 

Spyware

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,455
Sweden
Remember when the game actually came out and went to sell 2m+ copies with very good reviews...? Leaks or not, what matters is market perception when the product is out.
You're saying it doesn't matter the devs felt crushed for weeks? Doubting themselves and the game they were making due to the response to the leak? Just because it turned out people actually liked it when it was presented in a proper way... like you know, it would have been without the leak too.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,261
What's funny to me is that leaking stuff is somehow presented at this enlightened anti-corporate mindset. Instead it's actually totally playing into the consumerist hype, giving people every scrap of information as soon as it's available because even waiting two more days would be too much.
 

N75

self-requested temp ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,232
Bullshit. You and others are acting like movies never have casting surprises, cameos, Easter Eggs, twists, etc.
There's a clear difference between the announcement of a project and finer details of the project itself, come on now.

Also, castings get leaked all the time. We just had the Pattinson/Batman news. People don't care. This is almost exclusively a thing in the gaming industry.

Again, I'm not defending the sources themselves. If they get caught and action is taken, it's their own fault.
 

EeK9X

Member
Jan 31, 2019
1,068
What's the point in reporting leaks one or two days in advance of the actual reveal? That's not a scoop.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
What's funny to me is that leaking stuff is somehow presented at this enlightened anti-corporate mindset. Instead it's actually totally playing into the consumerist hype, giving people every scrap of information as soon as it's available because even waiting two more days would be too much.

"Fuck capitalism!" said the Era poster as they posted capitalist news stories about capitalist products on a capitalist board. "Down with the bourgeois!" they shouted as they ignored the opinions of the workforce and defended people's rights to profit from the labour of others.
 

Waffle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,821
Not that I disagree with him, but ofcourse he's gonna feel that way when they make money off of writing articles about leaks.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
There should be a distinction between the debate around 'announcing early' (ala movies) and the debate on consumers getting upset about leaks. They're completely distinct things.

I don't think it's wise for companies to announce games too early, but I also don't believe journalists or others should treat leaks as 'spoilers', as if the marketing is the product or the entertainment, rather than the game itself. I think Jason is reflecting on the marketing becoming the product.
would it really be that huge of an effort on their part to put leaks behind a spoiler warning and make everyone happy?

it seems like such an effortless solution that would make everyone happy instead of debating what is a spoiler and what it is ok to spoil (yes they are spoilers and yes you can spoil them as long as you give people the choice about spoiling themselves an announcement or not, especially during e3)
 

ShinNL

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
389
Little does he know that leaks are just part of the hype. Cause leaked info is never official and can be wrong, so on everyone's mind it's like 30% hype. Real announcements turn into 100% hype.

I don't care either way, but for a journalist to say that his announcements are more important than people work on trailers do and people here siding with him seems cringing to me.

"Corporates" seems like a big word to some of you but you know it's never one big blob of people creating a game and trailer, right? I work for a corporate (not gaming). I'm in my own small team, divided among other small teams, which is a branch among multiple branches. I have my own products to work on and there's marketing dedicated for what we create. It's all effort from individuals.

If there's a rogue outsider who leaks new upcoming stuff and people get hyped for it, great: free marketing. If they however make false promises, that would suck and ruin some of the goodwill we're building up. An outsider is still an outsider. Journalists do their thing, but they are NOT part of the actual development and creation. That shit takes time.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
finer details of the project itself

Game leaks reveal this kind of shit all the time, what are you talking about? Pokemon? Watch Dogs? HL2 had portions of the game leaked.

A leak right on the front page here gives more detail than just a game existing, but who is working on it, which is a fine detail.

Would it not be a cool surprise to see in a trailer if Naughty Dog was working on a Zelda game instead of just seeing a week ahead from some 4chan post that it was happening? The impact of that moment in the trailer/the trailer itself would be robbed.

Gaming leaks vary in detail.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
You train people to feel that way by making announcements a spectacle.

Do you think it's just coincidence that no consumers get mad when leaks happen in industries where announcements where there isn't this same kind of spectacle? Maybe I'm missing it, but do these conversations happen when computer part specs are leaked? Hell, I don't even remember anyone ever getting mad about "spoilers" whenever console specs leak, since they're not marketed the same way as games and so the consumer hasn't been trained to see that as bad yet.

It's fine if you want to be surprised, but it's on you to keep that surprise, the rest of the world shouldn't have to play by the whims of companies. This isn't a Christmas present, it's marketing.
Its definitely possible to present things in a way that makes things more exciting, thats true, but do you consider this as something negative? If so, why? I'm asking because this would be an element in training people as you mentioned, and it sounded like you ment it as something negative, but please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm pretty sure people are excited about events such as E3 more on their own merrits, and want to be surprised at the event, not because someone basically were taught by some companies to be excited about it. This is something that can be applied to basically any product, and do you feel that you're trained by someone if you're particularly excited for something? Or do you feel that your excitement is there because you personally have interest in the product on your own terms?

Personally, i dont care much about any spectacle (or what do you define as being a spectacle?). Some of the E3 press conferences has contained little talk and is more about showing the games. For me, its just about getting the surprise of unnanounced games, and looking forward to that specific day. I prefer to go in "blind", not knowing what to expect. Its not because someone told me that leaks are bad, its because i feel less excited about the event, something that i would feel regardless of what someone told me.

In the end however, it doesnt really matter that much, simply knowing about the game. I still havnt seen it nor played it, and that whats the most important thing :) So i'm not really super against these type of leaks. I'm more in the category of "i'd rather learn about it at the conference, but its not really that big of a deal". But yeah, it makes the event somewhat less exciting, and thats really the only factor, at least for me.

I've seen someone being disappointed when leaks about Apple products get leaked before their keynotes/press conferences. Its just come down to expectations. People know about these events and look forward to them on their own merits, not because they were trained to be excited for them,. They want to be surprised and learn new things, so it can happen to any medium. If there was a similar event for new movies for example, i'm sure there would be the exact same feeling. Or if there is a panel at e.g ComicCon, and some guy come in screaming "a new Superman movie is going to be announced!" and people didnt know about it, i'm pretty sure people would be pissed that they got spoiled with such unexpected announcement/surprise, and rather wanted to hear it from the actors themself being on the panel. If you learn "everything" in advance, the feeling of looking forward to such event isnt as exciting. Thats pretty much all that its about.

Sure, its possible to take measures to avoid potential leaks before an event, like staying off forums and internet sites that cover these things, a few days before an event. Thats true. Still though, its not always that easy to avoid them. They might in some cases come weeks in advance before the events as well.

Its true that its not a christmas present, but its pretty much the exact same principle. If you know in advance what you're getting for christmas, you still get the gift, but it still removes the element of surprise. Does it matter in the long run? Probably not, but right there and then, its not as exciting.

Its also true that its marketing, but why does this matter or change anything though? A lot of things surrounding game talk and showing the games can be considered as marketing. Its not like marketing is a bad thing in general.

And all this is just about my point of view, as the consumer. Theres also the side about these leaks taking away the element of surprise from the developers themself. Maybe some of them dont mind these leaks, but for those who does, it sucks that they didnt get to reveal it themself if thats what they want.

EDIT: I added some text.


I don't. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to know what is in the conferences, there is plenty weird about complaining that what is in the conference got leaked at all.
Sorry for the misunderstanding in that case. But which factor are plenty weird in that case? If information get leaked, people get to know it. Its not like its possible to undo/forget this. Its possible to take some measures oneself to avoid such information though, but its not always that easy.
 
Last edited:

Foxnull

Alt-Account
Banned
May 30, 2019
1,651
I disagree. The exciting surprises are the best part of E3 or other press conferences.
 

Aniki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,792
What's your thoughts on it's effect on the general gaming public though, the ones who are looking forward to attending or watching E3?
Now that they know a game they care about is being shown they look forward to seeing it in action. The devs are really the only ones where i can understand them being upset about the leaks. Surprises are nice but the games themselves are still the main reason we care about the event. It seems like announcements carry too much weight. Like peeps think a presentation was not good because they knew about the games in advance even though they get to see juicy gameplay for many of the games for the first time ever.
 

bear force one

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,305
Orlando
Agreed. I find the secrecy in gaming to be universally unappealing and frankly childish and needlessly manipulative.

Bring on all the product spoilers.
 

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
Marketing is not a narrative. The idea that it can be "spoiled" is ridiculous, and if you believe otherwise then maybe you need to rethink about your relationship with capitalism.
Maybe you should learn a thing or two about modern narratives if you think marketing is that special thing that cannot be it.

Fun fact: there is actually one single category of spoilers that got me really annoyed: live reveal contest results, specifically ones I was participating in. We were once driving for hours to the live trophy handout venue... but in the middle of the road, one of my friends checked the website of the contest in question and saw the full results. I hated the rest of that day; the whole point of the live handout to me was the element of surprise in who got in which place; now it was absolutely pointless, I was just stuck in a crowd with no reason to want to be there.
 

Ales34

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,455
Personally, I agree with Jason. There's no harm done if something leaks a few days earlier.

Though, in some cases it really takes the excitement out of a very unexpected announcement.
 

Deleted member 49611

Nov 14, 2018
5,052
ah i see he is looking for attention again. the whole cyberpunk thing must have died off.